Is Spiritual Israel The Woman In Revelation 12?

[Keraz]

View attachment 31433

The earthly physical woman?
The woman as The Church?
The woman as a nation?

Please be clear.

Revelation 12:1 = the woman as ancient Israel/
Revelation 12:5 - The woman as the virgin Mary.
Revelation 12:6 = The woman as the Christian Church.

Mary's status as the mother of Jesus does not make her above any of the Patriarchs, Prophets, or the Apostles.

 

[Illuminator]

Revelation 12:1 = the woman as ancient Israel/
Revelation 12:5 - The woman as the virgin Mary.
Revelation 12:6 = The woman as the Christian Church.

Mary's status as the mother of Jesus does not make her above any of the Patriarchs, Prophets, or the Apostles.

Patriarchs, Prophets, or the Apostles are not specifically mentioned in Rev. 12. But a woman is, and you just mentioned "woman" three times. How many Patriarchs, Prophets, or the Apostles are "clothed with sun, wearing a crown of 12 stars?"
Chapter and verse, please.
How many Patriarchs, Prophets, or the Apostles gave birth to the Messiah? Or is that a mere afterthought?
How many Patriarchs, Prophets, or the Apostles were given the title "Full of Grace"?
Mary's status as the mother of Jesus does not make her "above" any of the Patriarchs, Prophets, or the Apostles because she is a humble handmaid of the Lord. Mary doesn't claim to be "above" anybody. Scripture says she is "blessed among women", not "above" women. Mary is an ordinary woman, with an extraordinary role to play on God's plan of salvation. Your straw man fallacy of "above" is not biblical.

 

[Illuminator]

Before I explain how the war in Ukraine relates to the messages of Fatima,
I have to explain what the messages of Fatima are.
Before I explain what the messages of Fatima are, I have to explain that Catholics were oppressed by atheistic communism in Portugal in 1917. At one point, the three children seers were arrested by government officials. I'm not going to post 5 pages of text that few will read, the best I can do is make you curious, and read the facts for yourself.

The Miracle of the Sun, witnessed by 70,000 people, was either a masterful plot by Satan, or it was an act of God.
Pick one.
Mary can't do anything without God's grace, which is "above" everything.

Fátima Miracle: What happened at the Miracle of Fátima?

Fátima, the city home to the Sanctuary of Fátima gets over 8 million religious visitors a year. But why? What happened at the Miracle of Fátima?

www.portugal.com

 

[Illuminator]

Hardly. Catholics deny worshiping Mary, but do worship Mary.

The word “worship” has undergone a change in meaning in English. It comes from the Old English weorthscipe, which means the condition of being worthy of honor, respect, or dignity. To worship in the older, larger sense is to ascribe honor, worth, or excellence to someone, whether a sage, a magistrate, or God.

For many centuries, the term worship simply meant showing respect or honor, and an example of this usage survives in contemporary English. British subjects refer to their magistrates as “Your Worship,” although Americans would say “Your Honor.” This doesn’t mean that British subjects worship their magistrates as gods; it means they are giving them the honor appropriate to their office, not the honor appropriate to God.

Outside of this example, however, the English term “worship” has been narrowed in scope to indicate only that supreme form of honor, reverence, and respect that is due to God. This can lead to confusion, when people who are familiar only with the use of words in their own day and their own circles encounter material written in other times and other places.
In Scripture, the term “worship” was similarly broad in meaning, but in the early Christian centuries, theologians began to differentiate between different types of honor in order to make more clear which is due to God and which is not.

read the rest here, or scroll up to post #62 and argue with the Protestant Oxford Theological Dictionary of the New Testament.
Since you refuse to do even that little, I see no point in continuing any further discussion with you.

 

[VCO]

I will give you the Interpretation I believe with my Whole heart, and WHY?

First of all ELDERS in Judaism is NOT a Religious Position, it is a Political Position at best, the oldest ones in a Village could be considered Elders, in a larger town it will be the Ones with the Most influence. I will show you what I mean.

Genesis 50:7 (NRSV)
7 So Joseph went up to bury his father. With him went up all the servants of Pharaoh, the elders of his household, and all the elders of the land of Egypt,

These are those responsible for the decisions that effects the whole Village, such as Property Taxes, Business Distract, Laws of the City, etc. AND they may be elected or appointed to that position and even have no faith.

ELDERS OF THE CHURCH, they are responsible, for the Leadership in Churches and are directly accountable to GOD himself, and usually the most spiritually mature men, and must follow the Guidelines outlined in the BIBLE. There are exceptions to that rule, especially in Churches where the whole congregation, votes on who will be the next elder. I was once in that type of Church, and it turned out to be its downfall, and ended up being a Church Split, because the ones running for the Position of Elder, two of them were not qualified to be Elders according to the BIBLE. Will not get into it, but it became a Popularity Contest, that caused that Church to split.

So the Elder of the Church are the most Spiritually Mature, and the ones that can KEEP the Church on the Straight Nature. No I never was an Elder, and would refuse it, because of some of the things that happened to me before I became a Christian, in my opinion would disqualify me. So in that leadership ROLL, the Congregation once we get to Heaven, WILL KNOW WHO THEIR ELDER IS. Speculating, Billy Graham be the prime candidate for our Generation.

So in my Opinion, the Rapture happens will happen sometime between Revelation 3:22 and Revelation 4:1. Here is why, I believe all living Church-age Saint get the Call to go to the Wedding of the Lamb at the same time:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (HCSB)
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the archangel’s voice, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we will always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

By Revelation 4:1, we are ALL THERE, except Saved Jews the 2 witnesses introduced them to their Messiah, and Saved Tribulation saints, AND the CHURCH IS GONE and is Never mentioned again.

(Rev 4:1 [NASB2020])
1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door [standing] open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like [the sound] of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.”

(Rev 4:2 [NASB2020])
2 Immediately I was in [the] Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and [someone was] sitting on the throne.

4 Around the throne [were] twenty-four thrones; and upon the thrones [I saw] twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and golden crowns on their heads.

I do not believe the 24 Elders would take their Seat, unless the sum Total of the Church-age Saint were right in fruit of them.

9 And when the living creatures give glory, honor, and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, to Him who lives forever and ever,
The elders lay down their crowns, and worship him that sat on the throne
10 the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and they will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
11 “Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.”

Believe what you want, and I will always believe we are all Born Again Christians, are called out to go to the Wedding of the Lamb, PRE-TRIBULATION.

 

[Illuminator]

I will give you the Interpretation I believe with my Whole heart, and WHY?

First of all ELDERS in Judaism is NOT a Religious Position, it is a Political Position at best, the oldest ones in a Village could be considered Elders, in a larger town it will be the Ones with the Most influence. I will show you what I mean.

Genesis 50:7 (NRSV)
7 So Joseph went up to bury his father. With him went up all the servants of Pharaoh, the elders of his household, and all the elders of the land of Egypt,

These are those responsible for the decisions that effects the whole Village, such as Property Taxes, Business Distract, Laws of the City, etc. AND they may be elected or appointed to that position and even have no faith.

ELDERS OF THE CHURCH, they are responsible, for the Leadership in Churches and are directly accountable to GOD himself, and usually the most spiritually mature men, and must follow the Guidelines outlined in the BIBLE. There are exceptions to that rule, especially in Churches where the whole congregation, votes on who will be the next elder. I was once in that type of Church, and it turned out to be its downfall, and ended up being a Church Split, because the ones running for the Position of Elder, two of them were not qualified to be Elders according to the BIBLE. Will not get into it, but it became a Popularity Contest, that caused that Church to split.

So the Elder of the Church are the most Spiritually Mature, and the ones that can KEEP the Church on the Straight Nature. No I never was an Elder, and would refuse it, because of some of the things that happened to me before I became a Christian, in my opinion would disqualify me. So in that leadership ROLL, the Congregation once we get to Heaven, WILL KNOW WHO THEIR ELDER IS. Speculating, Billy Graham be the prime candidate for our Generation.

So in my Opinion, the Rapture happens will happen sometime between Revelation 3:22 and Revelation 4:1. Here is why, I believe all living Church-age Saint get the Call to go to the Wedding of the Lamb at the same time:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (HCSB)
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the archangel’s voice, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we will always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

By Revelation 4:1, we are ALL THERE, except Saved Jews the 2 witnesses introduced them to their Messiah, and Saved Tribulation saints, AND the CHURCH IS GONE and is Never mentioned again.

(Rev 4:1 [NASB2020])
1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door [standing] open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like [the sound] of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.”

(Rev 4:2 [NASB2020])
2 Immediately I was in [the] Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and [someone was] sitting on the throne.

4 Around the throne [were] twenty-four thrones; and upon the thrones [I saw] twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and golden crowns on their heads.

I do not believe the 24 Elders would take their Seat, unless the sum Total of the Church-age Saint were right in fruit of them.

9 And when the living creatures give glory, honor, and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, to Him who lives forever and ever,
The elders lay down their crowns, and worship him that sat on the throne
10 the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and they will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
11 “Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.”

Believe what you want, and I will always believe we are all Born Again Christians, are called out to go to the Wedding of the Lamb, PRE-TRIBULATION.

View attachment 31452

off topic

 

[VCO]

Not an actual woman, but a symbolic representation of Israel, pictured in the OT as the wife of God (Isa. 54:5, 6; Jer. 3:6-8; 31:32; Ezek. 16:32; Hos. 2:16).
The MacArthur Bible Commentary.

Sorry.

 

[Illuminator]

Not an actual woman, but a symbolic representation of Israel, pictured in the OT as the wife of God (Isa. 54:5, 6; Jer. 3:6-8; 31:32; Ezek. 16:32; Hos. 2:16).
The MacArthur Bible Commentary.

Sorry.

But I already said I agree the woman in Rev. 12 is a symbolic representation of Israel.
You disagree with what we agree with.

 

[Illuminator]

Rev.12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus [c]Christ, and the war hasn't stopped yet.

We have seen too many instances lately where the government is trespassing on the affairs of religion; it is not the other way around. Church and state separation cuts both ways. But under the Biden administration, this fundamental constitutional principle is being summarily ignored. This includes the Department of Justice and the FBI.

Catholics have a right to know what the FBI is up to. The evidence is clear: Violence against Catholic churches and crisis pregnancy centers are largely going unattended to, yet probes of innocent Catholics are being conducted. This raises important questions that go to the heart of the FBI’s legitimacy.

FBI ASKED ABOUT PROBING “MAINLINE CATHOLICS”

Catholic League president Bill Donohue explains why he wrote to the Director of the FBI: Today I asked FBI Director Christopher Wray to make public those documents that are related to the FBI’s outreach program to “mainline Catholic parishes” and “local diocesan leadership.” They were targeted...

www.catholicleague.org

On the night of December 5, someone cut off the statue's nose and hands, along with the cross atop her crown. Her defacement was the 113th such attack on Catholic property across the United States in the past 20 months and part of a rising rate of vandalism against Catholic churches that may be unprecedented in American history.

Arson, Graffiti and More: Vandals Increasingly Target Catholic Churches

The suggested reasons for the attacks vary, but at root is a rising animus against religion.

www.newsweek.com

Over 300 Catholic churches hit with destructive acts of vandalism since spring 2020: report - LifeSite

Methods of violence against the churches have reportedly included arson, destruction (often decapitation) of statues, and even the theft and desecration of tabernacles containing the Holy Eucharist.

www.lifesitenews.com

(CNSNews.com) -- Since May 2020, at least 278 Catholic Churches in the United States have been attacked -- vandalized, burned, destroyed -- and 121 of those attacks have occurred since the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade in June 2022,

Over the past few years, beginning with the urban riots that took place in 2020, there was a rash of anti-Catholic crimes across the nation. Monuments were destroyed, iconic statues were bludgeoned, gravesites were desecrated, Masses were interrupted, graffiti was spray-painted on church walls, windows were smashed, churches were torched, schools were vandalized, chalices were stolen, etc.

CHURCH VANDALISM

Over the past few years, beginning with the urban riots that took place in 2020, there was a rash of anti-Catholic crimes across the nation. Monuments were destroyed, iconic statues were bludgeoned, gravesites were desecrated, Masses were interrupted, graffiti was spray-painted on church walls...

www.catholicleague.org

Satanic groups in America are getting ready to perform Satanic ceremonies and rituals such as pouring blood over a Virgin Mary statue this Christmastime, a Catholic civil rights organization has warned.

"In a world where Christians are routinely being murdered and raped in the name of God, even non-believers must be curious about the rise of Satanism. Here at home we are also witnessing a surge in Satanic attacks," the Catholic League's Bill Donohue wrote in a press release this week.

Satanists to Pour Blood Over Virgin Mary, Perform Satanic Ceremonies Over Christmas

Satanic groups in America are getting ready to perform Satanic ceremonies and rituals such as pouring blood over a Virgin Mary statue this Christmastime, a Catholic civil rights organization has ...

www.christianpost.com

The Greater Union Baptist Church in St. Landry Parish, La. was set ablaze on April, 2, 2019.

A Roman Catholic diocese donated an estimated $50,000 to three historically African-American churches that were the victims of a series of arson attacks in Louisiana.

Earlier this year, St. Mary’s Baptist Church of Port Barre, Greater Union Baptist Church and Mt. Pleasant Baptist Church of Opelousas were attacked by an arsonist.

Bishop J. Douglas Deshotel of the Catholic Diocese of Lafayette presented the donation last Thursday to the pastors of the three congregations at the site of the former St. Mary’s Baptist, according to local newspaper The Acadiana Advocate.

The donation came from a collection taken up by Catholic congregations in the diocese and it will be equally split up between the three churches.

Catholic diocese donates $50,000 to three black churches damaged by arson attack

A Roman Catholic diocese donated an estimated 50,000 to three historically African-American churches that were the victims of a series of arson attacks in Louisiana

www.christianpost.com

 

[ewq1938]

The manuscripts do not have chapters or verse numbers so the original would look like this :


And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?



Whoever the woman is, she is alive and on the Earth at the time Satan starts the great tribulation and the GT ends when Christ returns so that means it cannot be the historical Mary. It must be a symbolic woman, most likely some form of Israel...I think "true Israel" or "NT (new covenant) Israel" makes the most sense.

 

[Illuminator]

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STOP THE VIOLENCE AGAINST CATHOLICS

Catholic League president Bill Donohue comments on violence against Christians: With Good Friday and Easter upon us, it is a good time to remind ourselves of the degree to which Catholics are the targets of violent extremists. The U.S. State Department recently released its annual report on...

www.catholicleague.org

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CATHOLIC LEAGUE FOR RELIGIOUS AND CIVIL RIGHTS 2022 YEAR IN REVIEW

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www.catholicleague.org

 

[Zao is life]

There is much debate about this, with the Church as Spiritual Israel as much of a contender as some believe an alternative would be OT Israel in this description. But why can't it simply be a representation of Spiritual Israel, or the Church itself consisting of saved Jews and Gentiles both, Symbolically thru Mary, but not just Mary, but Symbolically thru the Church / Spiritual Israel as well?

Let us begin : .............................................................................................................................................................................

I agree with almost all of what you say (except a future interpretation of Daniel 9:26-27, it that's what you were saying) and want to comment on some of the parts, if I may, and also as to why I believe it helps us identify the harlot.

In Revelation the 12 tribes do not refer to the ancient nation, but symbolize the complete church (7:1-8).

Under this imagery, the “woman” of Revelation 12 would represent God’s pure church.
In the New Testament, the church is known as spiritual Israel, Zion and “the mother” Zion-Jerusalem was the idealized mother of the nation of Israel The metaphor carried over into the New Testament and was applied to the church.

The Jews and the church both have 12 stars.

Yes.
Revelation 21:12: "the names of the twelve tribes of the nation of Israel are written on the gates of New Jerusalem."
Revelation 21:14 "The wall of the city has twelve foundations, and on them are the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb."

What you say is true, but I want to stress that IMO there is no distinction between God's elect (Israel) of the Old Testament who like Abraham, believed (in the Word of) God, and it was counted to him (them) for righteousness, and God's elect (Israel) of the New Testament who believe (in the Word of) God, and who are Israel. As Israel we all know that the Word of God came in the flesh (Jesus).

There is only a distinction between the covenant God made with Israel "in the day He took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt", and the New Covenant He established with the house of Israel and the house of Judah in the blood of Christ (Jeremiah 31:31-34). As for the elect, Paul did not mention a "New Israel" being formed, either in Romans 9:22-29 or in Romans 11:17.

I do believe that one of the big mistakes many Christians make in interpretation of the scriptures is to fail to understand that the elect nation are, and always have been those who like Abraham, believe (in the Word of) God, but the covenant has changed (not God's elect).

In the days of the elect nation of the Old Testament, there were always those who claimed to be the elect, but who played the harlot.

Nothing has changed in this regard. The imagery of the woman of Revelation 12 compared with the imagery of the harlot in Revelation 17 helps us to see who the harlot represents:

The Revelation makes a thesis-antithesis comparison between New Jerusalem and Babylon the Great:

"And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, Come here, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife." (Revelation 21:9)

"And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials came and talked with me, saying to me, Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot sitting on many waters" (Revelation 17:1).

In the Revelation, only these entities:

Jezebel of the church at Thyatira & her followers; and
The kings of the earth; and
The harlot,

are accused of fornication. No one else is accused of "fornication". The beast is not accused of "fornication". It's not part of the elect, he / it cannot be an adulterous woman.

We read that Jesus rules over the faithful 'kings of the earth' (Revelation 1:5), and Babylon the Great rules over the unfaithful kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18).

New Jerusalem is a city of gold, precious stones and pearls (Revelation 21:10-11 & 18-21). The harlot is "..gilded with gold, precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her FORNICATION" (Revelation 17:4).

The kings of the earth that committed fornication with Babylon the Great and wept and wailed over her demise (Revelation 18:9) are not the same as the 10 kings who will hate her, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire (Rev 17:16).

The harlot is catholic (which means universal) sitting on many waters, which represent people, nations, tribes and tongues (Revelation 17:15). Note: The word 'catholic' is not meant here to be associated with the Roman church or the Vatican, but with the international nature of Christianity. It's people from all nations, tribes, and tongues. The elect is catholic (not the church going by that name, but the people). So is the harlot.

The kings of the earth who commit fornication with Babylon the Great are the unfaithful kings of the earth, and are unlike the faithful kings of the earth seen in New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:24).

Ancient Babylon: The type of Babylon the Great, because of it's international nature:

Jeremiah 51:13
"O you who live on many waters, rich in treasures, your end has come, and the measure of your unjust gain."

Revelation 17:1
"And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials came and talked with me, saying to me, Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot sitting on many waters."

Jeremiah 50:29
"Make the archers hear against Babylon. All you who tread a bow, camp against it all around; let none of them escape. Repay her according to her work; according to all that she has done, do to her. For she has been proud against the LORD, against the Holy One of Israel."

Revelation 18:6
"Reward her as she has rewarded you, and double to her double, according to her works. In the cup which she mixed, mix double to her."

Jeremiah 51:63-64
"And it shall be, when you have made an end of reading this book, you shall tie a stone to it and throw it into the middle of Euphrates.
And you shall say, In this way shall Babylon sink, and shall not rise from the evil that I will bring on her. And they shall be weary. So far are the words of Jeremiah."

Revelation 18:21
"And one strong angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, So on an impulse the great city, Babylon, will be thrown down and not at all will be found any more."

COME OUT OF HER

Jeremiah 51:6-8 & 45
6 Flee out of the middle of Babylon, and each man deliver his soul. Be not cut off in her iniquity, for this is the time of the LORD's vengeance; He will give to her a just reward.
7 Babylon has been a golden cup in the LORD's hand, which made all the earth drunk. The nations have drunk of her wine; therefore the nations are insane.
8 Babylon is suddenly fallen and destroyed. Wail for her; take balm for her pain, if perhaps she may be healed.
45 My people, go out of her midst; and let each man deliver his soul from the fierce anger of the LORD.

Revelation 18:3
"because of the wine of the anger of her fornication which all the nations have drunk. And the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her. And the merchants of the earth became rich from the power of her luxury."

Revelation 18:4
"And I heard another voice from Heaven, saying, Come out of her, My people, that you may not be partakers of her sins, and that you may not receive of her plagues."

Isaiah 1 (talking about Jerusalem of old, which is the Biblical type, the example to all):

21 How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.
24 Therefore says the LORD, the LORD of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease me of mine adversaries, and avenge me of mine enemies:
25 And I will turn my hand upon you, and thoroughly purge away your dross, and take away all your tin:
27-28 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness. And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.

It's clear that part of the elect nation are those who call themselves the elect, but are an harlot. And those who call themselves the elect, yet shed the blood of the elect, these are they whom God holds responsible for the blood of all prophets and of all saints that ever was shed by the harlot even while she was calling herself the elect (Matthew 23:29-38).

So the harlot that calls herself the elect and yet plays the harlot of New Testament Israel isn't any different to the harlot of Old Testament Israel, and the imagery of Babylon is used merely to show the catholic (international) nature of the harlot.

Babylon of old was "the beast" of that age, but Babylon the Great is not the beast. She rides on (is carried by) the beast, up until the day that the 10 kings of the beast turn on her. And the kings of the earth who weep and wail over her demise are not the same as the 10 kings of the beast that will hate her and destroy her.

 

[VCO]

But I already said I agree the woman in Rev. 12 is a symbolic representation of Israel.
You disagree with what we agree with.

Where on earth did you get the idea that I disagreed with you or MacArthur. Obviously you just want someone to argue with you.

But that is NOT ME. I think you misunderstood me.

 

[Illuminator]

Is this your response to post #71? What does all this have to do with the world wide persecution of of Christians TODAY, with Catholics taking the brunt of it? To make matters worse, we take heat from the whore-duh-babble-on psychos who twist scripture to justify their prejudice. I see no difference between you and the rest of our culture of death who despises the Catholic Church. Your disclaimer places yourself as a supreme judge over all Christianity.

The harlot is catholic (which means universal) sitting on many waters, which represent people, nations, tribes and tongues (Revelation 17:15). Note: The word 'catholic' is not meant here to be associated with the Roman church or the Vatican, but with the international nature of Christianity. It's people from all nations, tribes, and tongues. The elect is catholic (not the church going by that name, but the people). So is the harlot.

The U.S. State Department recently released its annual report on religious violence around the world. It found that “80% of the world’s population cannot practice their faith without serious restrictions or risk.”

You can't tell the difference between a harlot and a bride. "the international nature of Christianity" is not a prostitute. Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox have plenty of good things in common while you busy yourself with cherry picked Rev. chapters and more division. The Book of Revelation is primarily about the Wedding Feast of the Lamb, not your fear based politics.

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The Children’s Projects​

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Every child who comes to Nazareth House is able to receive education, medical care, and support for any condition or trauma the child may have.
There are currently 40 orphaned/abandoned babies and children at Nazareth House. They all attend normal, mainstream schools or daycare centers. They get to enjoy various activities throughout the year, including picnics, field trips, sporting events, baking cakes, reading, and other special events. Some children even get to receive horse riding lessons!

Care of the Aged Project​

Nazareth House lifts residents out of the disadvantages of poverty, isolation, and neglect, and enables them to live with dignity as valued and respected members of society.
Nazareth House Johannesburg provides full-time residential care for 117 frail and impoverished seniors. Most of these residents also battle other ailments, including Alzheimer’s, dementia, Parkinson’s, and diabetes, and require full-time nursing care. These patients are poor and have no family support systems.
Although some of the residents contribute financially toward their care through the use of pensions, this doesn’t entirely cover the cost of care. The cost of medication, clothing, food, and transportation to and from hospitals and check-ups is enormous.
Care for the elderly is a big priority for Nazareth House. Similar to children, the elderly are often also abused and abandoned or have no financial resources.
Nazareth House provides a loving, family-like environment for these seniors. In addition to medical care, residents are also given the opportunity to see hairdressers/barbers, have movie nights, go on library outings, and go on assisted shopping trips. They greatly enjoy going on shopping trips and spending pocket money on trinkets, treats, and items they need.
Nazareth House lifts residents out of the disadvantages of poverty, isolation, and neglect, and enables them to live with dignity as valued and respected members of society.
Nazareth House offers assistance to their elderly residents at all levels, including emotional and medical. Some of the services they provide include:

• Ongoing health monitoring and personal hygiene assistance
• Frail care facilities for those who require more specialized care and attention
• Preparation and provision of nutritious meals
• 24-hour nursing care and spiritual guidance
• Give each resident love and the best care possible
• And many other facets of caring for the whole person: body and soul.

Nazareth House also plays a vital role in the community for the care of people with HIV/AIDS. Nazareth House operates St. Basil’s Hospice and the Clinic of Hope and Love to care for people battling HIV/AIDS.
St. Basil’s Hospice provides antiretroviral therapy for patients battling HIV. For patients who can regain their health, St. Basil’s ensures they do so. St. Basil’s Hospice also provides compassionate care for some patients until the end of their lives.
The Clinic of Hope and Love was founded to provide for the many local residents, especially immigrants, who are HIV positive or living with AIDS. In the last year, the clinic has tested 8,237 patients. 1,073 are now on antiretroviral medication.

Community Outreach Program​

This program was begun in 2002 after more and more patients were being admitted to St. Basil’s with preventable conditions. The Outreach program provides quality care to the destitute, poor, and ill in the Yeoville area of Johannesburg.
One of the key aspects of this program is preventative measures for HIV positive persons, such as education, counseling, nutrition, medication, and the promotion of adherence to treatment plans.
More than 60% of the patients and people who benefit from this program are women. Less than 40% are men.
Sr. Bridget Ambrose runs the Community Outreach Program. She is a Sister of Nazareth and registered nurse. Sr. Bridget visits 4-7 patients every day, as well as their families and other poor families in the Central Johannesburg area. She looks after people’s healthcare needs and their spiritual needs. She distributes blankets, food, and clothes to families and patients in need whenever possible.
Nazareth House also provides Sr. Bridget with a vehicle so she can visit these patients. She sometimes must also transport them to hospitals and clinics in emergency situations because the ambulance services in the area refuse to assist refugees.
The community outreach program established a support group in 2009. The group currently has 123 members and teaches members various skills such as sewing and beadwork that will allow them to support themselves and their families when their health improves (many of the members suffer from diseases such as tuberculosis and HIV/AIDS.)

The outreach program has made a difference in the lives of thousands of people. Through the outreach program, these patients’ quality of life has vastly improved. While progress is not always measurable, one concrete statistic speaks to the importance of this program: the mortality rate has decreased dramatically over the years. Currently, only 30% of those cared for through the outreach program pass away. While that is still a high mortality rate when compared to developed nations, that equals thousands of lives saved through the work of Nazareth House!


Sorry if this annoys you.

 

[Zao is life]

Is this your response to post #71? What does all this have to do with the world wide persecution of of Christians TODAY, with Catholics taking the brunt of it? To make matters worse, we take heat from the whore-duh-babble-on psychos who twist scripture to justify their prejudice. I see no difference between you and the rest of our culture of death who despises the Catholic Church. Your disclaimer places yourself as a supreme judge over all Christianity.

The U.S. State Department recently released its annual report on religious violence around the world. It found that “80% of the world’s population cannot practice their faith without serious restrictions or risk.”

You can't tell the difference between a harlot and a bride. "the international nature of Christianity" is not a prostitute. Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox have plenty of good things in common while you busy yourself with cherry picked Rev. chapters and more division. The Book of Revelation is primarily about the Wedding Feast of the Lamb, not your fear based politics.

You are from South Africa, so surely you have heard of The Sisters of Nazareth who run four extremely impactful programs out of Nazareth House Johannesburg. Maybe they are in your neighborhood; you should drop by and have a chat with the nuns, if you are not afraid of them.

The Children’s Projects​

Nazareth House provides a safe, loving place for children of all ages and backgrounds to call home during times of crisis. Specifically, Nazareth House provides:
Long-term or permanent care for orphaned or abandoned children, most of whom have very special needs, including living with HIV and AIDS;
Short-term, emergency care for abused or abandoned children who have been removed from their homes for their protection;
A family reunification program with the intention of reuniting as many children as possible with their immediate families or extended family members, when possible and when in the child’s best interest.
Every child who comes to Nazareth House is able to receive education, medical care, and support for any condition or trauma the child may have.
There are currently 40 orphaned/abandoned babies and children at Nazareth House. They all attend normal, mainstream schools or daycare centers. They get to enjoy various activities throughout the year, including picnics, field trips, sporting events, baking cakes, reading, and other special events. Some children even get to receive horse riding lessons!

Care of the Aged Project​

Nazareth House lifts residents out of the disadvantages of poverty, isolation, and neglect, and enables them to live with dignity as valued and respected members of society.
Nazareth House Johannesburg provides full-time residential care for 117 frail and impoverished seniors. Most of these residents also battle other ailments, including Alzheimer’s, dementia, Parkinson’s, and diabetes, and require full-time nursing care. These patients are poor and have no family support systems.
Although some of the residents contribute financially toward their care through the use of pensions, this doesn’t entirely cover the cost of care. The cost of medication, clothing, food, and transportation to and from hospitals and check-ups is enormous.
Care for the elderly is a big priority for Nazareth House. Similar to children, the elderly are often also abused and abandoned or have no financial resources.
Nazareth House provides a loving, family-like environment for these seniors. In addition to medical care, residents are also given the opportunity to see hairdressers/barbers, have movie nights, go on library outings, and go on assisted shopping trips. They greatly enjoy going on shopping trips and spending pocket money on trinkets, treats, and items they need.
Nazareth House lifts residents out of the disadvantages of poverty, isolation, and neglect, and enables them to live with dignity as valued and respected members of society.
Nazareth House offers assistance to their elderly residents at all levels, including emotional and medical. Some of the services they provide include:

• Ongoing health monitoring and personal hygiene assistance
• Frail care facilities for those who require more specialized care and attention
• Preparation and provision of nutritious meals
• 24-hour nursing care and spiritual guidance
• Give each resident love and the best care possible
• And many other facets of caring for the whole person: body and soul.

Nazareth House also plays a vital role in the community for the care of people with HIV/AIDS. Nazareth House operates St. Basil’s Hospice and the Clinic of Hope and Love to care for people battling HIV/AIDS.
St. Basil’s Hospice provides antiretroviral therapy for patients battling HIV. For patients who can regain their health, St. Basil’s ensures they do so. St. Basil’s Hospice also provides compassionate care for some patients until the end of their lives.
The Clinic of Hope and Love was founded to provide for the many local residents, especially immigrants, who are HIV positive or living with AIDS. In the last year, the clinic has tested 8,237 patients. 1,073 are now on antiretroviral medication.

Community Outreach Program​

This program was begun in 2002 after more and more patients were being admitted to St. Basil’s with preventable conditions. The Outreach program provides quality care to the destitute, poor, and ill in the Yeoville area of Johannesburg.
One of the key aspects of this program is preventative measures for HIV positive persons, such as education, counseling, nutrition, medication, and the promotion of adherence to treatment plans.
More than 60% of the patients and people who benefit from this program are women. Less than 40% are men.
Sr. Bridget Ambrose runs the Community Outreach Program. She is a Sister of Nazareth and registered nurse. Sr. Bridget visits 4-7 patients every day, as well as their families and other poor families in the Central Johannesburg area. She looks after people’s healthcare needs and their spiritual needs. She distributes blankets, food, and clothes to families and patients in need whenever possible.
Nazareth House also provides Sr. Bridget with a vehicle so she can visit these patients. She sometimes must also transport them to hospitals and clinics in emergency situations because the ambulance services in the area refuse to assist refugees.
The community outreach program established a support group in 2009. The group currently has 123 members and teaches members various skills such as sewing and beadwork that will allow them to support themselves and their families when their health improves (many of the members suffer from diseases such as tuberculosis and HIV/AIDS.)

The outreach program has made a difference in the lives of thousands of people. Through the outreach program, these patients’ quality of life has vastly improved. While progress is not always measurable, one concrete statistic speaks to the importance of this program: the mortality rate has decreased dramatically over the years. Currently, only 30% of those cared for through the outreach program pass away. While that is still a high mortality rate when compared to developed nations, that equals thousands of lives saved through the work of Nazareth House!

View attachment 31512
Sorry if this annoys you.

Groan. I was answering the OP, not you or your Post #71. It was obvious by whose post I quoted.

It looks like maybe you saw the word "catholic" in my post and completely misinterpreted everything I said, though I explained what I mean by the word "catholic". That word means "universal" i.e there are Christians among all nations, tribes and tongues.

I explained that I was not using it in reference to any church going by the name "Catholic" (with a capital C).

Check the dictionary definition of the word "catholic" (small c). It's not referring to any church.

catholic - Wiktionary, the free dictionary

en.wiktionary.org

Adjective

catholic (comparative more catholic, superlative most catholic)

Universal; all-encompassing.

Synonyms: universal; see also Thesaurus:generic, Thesaurus:comprehensive

In the days of the Old Testament, who was called an harlot? Are those who call themselves God's elect today all faithful?

Sorry if you are pinning what I said onto one particular group of Christians only (even on those who can hardly be called unfaithful), even though I explained that among those who call themselves God's elect there are those who are not faithful to God today also,

but unlike in the days of the Old Testament, those Christians of today who are unfaithful consist of people from all nations, tribes and tongues, i.ow, a catholic nation.

You have pinned that onto groups of people who I wasn't even talking about, and your post is angry and accusative.

I did not identify the unfaithful woman, merely the principle. I wasn't even talking to you, and I still don't even know what I said has to do with what you said in Post #71, because I was answering the OP, not your post. You are pinning it onto people, not me.

Just because Christians are persecuted doesn't mean there is no harlot group among those calling themselves Christians.

You seem to have an ego issue with who knows what coming from who knows where.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

There is much debate about this, with the Church as Spiritual Israel as much of a contender as some believe an alternative would be OT Israel in this description. But why can't it simply be a representation of Spiritual Israel, or the Church itself consisting of saved Jews and Gentiles both, Symbolically thru Mary, but not just Mary, but Symbolically thru the Church / Spiritual Israel as well?

Let us begin : .............................................................................................................................................................................

Revelation 12 radically alters the elements of Joseph’s dream. It reinterprets them in terms of spiritual Israel — the church or the congregation of God’s people (Galatians 6:16).

In Revelation the 12 tribes do not refer to the ancient nation, but symbolize the complete church (7:1-8). The woman being arrayed with the sun could represent the church as the radiant bride of Christ (2 Corinthians 11:2). The moon under the woman’s feet and the crown on her head could depict her victory through Christ.

Under this imagery, the “woman” of Revelation 12 would represent God’s pure church. Biblical scholar M. Eugene Boring says: “She is the cosmic woman, clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and crowned with twelve stars, who brings forth the Messiah” (Interpretation: A Bible Commentary for Teaching and Preaching, “Revelation,” p. 152).

In the New Testament, the church is known as spiritual Israel, Zion and “the mother” (Galatians 4:26; 6:16; Ephesians 5:23-24, 30-32; Hebrews 12:22). Zion-Jerusalem was the idealized mother of the nation of Israel (Isaiah 54:1). The metaphor carried over into the New Testament and was applied to the church (Galatians 4:26).

Revelation 12 - Jesus and the Church - Grace Communion International

Visit gci.org and browse Grace Communion International's extensive library of articles on God, the Bible, faith, and the Christian Life.

www.gci.org

The Jews and the church both have 12 stars​

REVELATION 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

“A great wonder in Heaven” means the vision has spiritual implications.
The Jews were also the mother nation that brought forth the Promised Son, Messiah.
A woman symbolizes a church of believers. The true church is the Bride of Christ.

ChurchAges.net - Revelation 12 - Israel and America

ChurchAges.net - Jerusalem can be spelled JerUSAlem. Evidence of a link between Israel and America.

churchages.net

The events described in the second half of the book of Revelation are directly related to the past and future of two symbolic women who are diametrical opposites. The first (Revelation 12) represents those who have been God's covenant people—the "Church of God"—both Old Testament Israel and the New Testament called-out servants of Christ. The identity of this woman (national Israel or the New Testament Church) in Revelation is determined by the context and other scriptures. Jerusalem, the holy city, is portrayed as their spiritual home (Revelation 11:2).

The Two Women of Revelation

The events described in the second half of the book of Revelation are directly related to the past and future of two symbolic women who are diametrical opposites.

www.ucg.org

The Church?​

Amillennial and historical premillennial interpreters argue that the woman here is the Church. Advocates of this interpretation argue that the NT authors call the Church a woman (2 Cor. 11:2; Eph. 5:25-27, 32; 2 Jn. 1, 5; 3 Jn. 9), and the early church fathers call the Church a woman as well

(Rev. 12:1) Who is the woman: Israel, Mary, or the Church? | Evidence Unseen

www.evidenceunseen.com

d. A woman clothed with the sun: Scripturally, this woman clothed with the sun should be identified with Israel, according to Joseph’s dream (Genesis 37:9-11). In that dream, the sun represented Jacob, the moon represented Joseph’s mother Rachel, and the eleven stars were the sons of Israel which bowed down to Joseph. In this sign with twelve stars, Joseph is now among the other tribes of Israel.

i. In other Old Testament passages, Israel (or Zion or Jerusalem) is often represented as a woman (Isaiah 54:1-6, Jeremiah 3:20, Ezekiel 16:8-14, and Hosea 2:19-20).

2. (2) The woman gives birth.​

Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.

a. Being with child: Later in the chapter, it is clear that this child born of Israel is Jesus (She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron, Revelation 12:5).

b. She cried out in labor and in pain to give birth: The pain described refers to the travail of Israel at the time of Jesus’ birth (under Roman occupation and oppression).

Enduring Word Bible Commentary Revelation Chapter 12

David Guzik commentary on Revelation 12 explains the woman, the child, and the dragon, and the conflict in heaven between Michael and the dragon.

enduringword.com

Could the "Woman" be both physical Israel through which the Messiah arose (O/T), and spiritual Israel (Gal. 6:16) that gives birth to the saints of the the Old and New Testaments (Rev. 12:1-2, 5, 13, 17)

Can we interpret the "Woman" of Revelation (12:1-2, 13, 17) as the "Israel of God" both of the Old and New Covenants?

The great symbolism of the "woman" in the Book of Revelation (chapter 12) seems to represent Israel both of the Old and New Covenants: Revelation 12:1-2: "A great sign appeared in h...

hermeneutics.stackexchange.com

Who is the woman in Revelation 12?​

The woman of the Apocalypse—described as being “clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars” (verse 1)—represents Old Testament Israel. In the Old Testament, God referred to His people as a woman whom He had dressed in honor and splendor (Ezekiel 16). The garland with 12 stars may be symbolic of the 12 tribes of Israel (Genesis 37:9-10).

Throughout Revelation 12 we note that the “woman” is repeatedly protected by God (verses 6, 14-16), especially as the time approaches for the “kingdom of our God” to be established on earth (verse 10).

In the New Testament, God’s Church is symbolized as a woman; and its members are likened to virgins (Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 14:4; Revelation 19:7). The New Testament Church is called “the Israel of God” (Galatians 6:16) and likened to “Jerusalem above,” which is called “the mother of us all” (Galatians 4:26, also see Hebrews 12:22-23). Members of the Church are described as “a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His [God’s] own special people” (1 Peter 2:9).

When Christ returns to earth, He is going to marry the Church, which is called “His wife” in Revelation 19:7. Read more about Jesus Christ and the Church in our article “Marriage Supper of the Lamb.” Based on these passages, it is clear that the woman in Revelation 12 represents God’s people.

Who Are the Woman, Child and Dragon in Revelation 12?

Revelation 12 provides an overview of three major players in the world today and their impact on end-time events. Whom do the woman, Child and dragon represent, and what can we learn from this section of Bible prophecy?

lifehopeandtruth.com

There is almost no end to interpretation, with OT Israel, and a NT Spiritual Israel being the two greatest contenders. I have selectively quoted from a few sites, a few of which themselves have concluded that OT Israel is in fact their choice.

It is a quite complicated issue and debate, but I see there are those here, who think they are smarter than everyone else, including all biblical scholars and interpreters, who can't decide nor settle these questions amongst themselves, for all to agree, but those with agendas here, to attack premillennialism, by attempting to comment on that which isn't settled by far amongst scholars, has never been settled, and will never be settled in our lifetimes, but hey lets attack premillennialism while we're at it, and pretend we're smarter than everyone else?

It is OT Israel and cannot ever be the church. Why?

Revelation 12

King James Version

​

12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

The church did not birth Jesus- but Jesus birthed the church! Israel is the nation that birthed Jesus! this one little truth should settle it forever!

 

[jeffweeder]

The church did not birth Jesus- but Jesus birthed the church! Israel is the nation that birthed Jesus! this one little truth should settle it forever!

No.
God established Israel for the sole purpose of bringing Jesus into the world....to save all mankind and bring them together into one new fully restored human being.

Israel's sole redemption and restoration will never be complete without the Gentile inclusion in Gods redemption of the other sheep outside Israel. We all attatch ourselves to lord Jesus and are saved. One sheep with one shephard.




John 10:16
I have other sheep [beside these] that are not of this fold. I must bring those also, and they will listen to My voice and pay attention to My call, and they will become one flock with one Shepherd.

 

[ewq1938]

It is OT Israel and cannot ever be the church.

The church started in the OT, under the old covenant, with Israelites/Jews.

 

[Waiting on him]

Revelation 12:6KJV
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Who is the they that feed her?

 

[ewq1938]

Who is the they that feed her?

There is no "they" in the Greek manuscripts. It's just a translation choice.