Is Spiritual Israel The Woman In Revelation 12?

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Waiting on him

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There is no "they" in the Greek manuscripts. It's just a translation choice.
Jeremiah 6:1-3 KJV
[1] O ye children of Benjamin, gather yourselves to flee out of the midst of Jerusalem, and blow the trumpet in Tekoa, and set up a sign of fire in Beth-haccerem: for evil appeareth out of the north, and great destruction. [2] I have likened the daughter of Zion to a comely and delicate woman. [3] The shepherds with their flocks shall come unto her; they shall pitch their tents against her round about; they shall feed every one in his place.
 
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ewq1938

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Jeremiah 6:1-3 KJV
[1] O ye children of Benjamin, gather yourselves to flee out of the midst of Jerusalem, and blow the trumpet in Tekoa, and set up a sign of fire in Beth-haccerem: for evil appeareth out of the north, and great destruction. [2] I have likened the daughter of Zion to a comely and delicate woman. [3] The shepherds with their flocks shall come unto her; they shall pitch their tents against her round about; they shall feed every one in his place.

There is no "they" in the verse in Rev 12 that we are discussing.
 

Truth7t7

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Who is the they that feed her?
Good question who are "They"?

Scripture teaches below a parallel of Revelation 12:6, and it shows the remnant will be fed Manna from heaven, as in the days of coming out of Egypt, will "They" be Angelic Host's, the Godhead, Father, Son, Holy Spirit?

Micah 7:14-15KJV
14 Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel: let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old.
15 According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him marvellous things.
 

VCO

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No.
God established Israel for the sole purpose of bringing Jesus into the world....to save all mankind and bring them together into one new fully restored human being.

Israel's sole redemption and restoration will never be complete without the Gentile inclusion in Gods redemption of the other sheep outside Israel. We all attatch ourselves to lord Jesus and are saved. One sheep with one shephard.




John 10:16
I have other sheep [beside these] that are not of this fold. I must bring those also, and they will listen to My voice and pay attention to My call, and they will become one flock with one Shepherd.

And to repopulate ISRAEL during HIS Millennium Reign.

The Population will be 0 at the as his feet hit Mt. of Olives, but the 144,000 will be in Jordan, to a valley of Saftey.
 

VCO

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And to repopulate ISRAEL during HIS Millennium Reign.

The Population will be 0 at the as his feet hit Mt. of Olives, but the 144,000 will be in Jordan, to a valley of Saftey.


I mean after the 144,000 flee after Mt. of Olives splits.
 

Ronald Nolette

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No.
God established Israel for the sole purpose of bringing Jesus into the world....to save all mankind and bring them together into one new fully restored human being.

Israel's sole redemption and restoration will never be complete without the Gentile inclusion in Gods redemption of the other sheep outside Israel. We all attatch ourselves to lord Jesus and are saved. One sheep with one shephard.




John 10:16
I have other sheep [beside these] that are not of this fold. I must bring those also, and they will listen to My voice and pay attention to My call, and they will become one flock with one Shepherd.
I agree with all you say but that does not negate that the woman in Rev. 12 is national Israel.
 

Ronald Nolette

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The church started in the OT, under the old covenant, with Israelites/Jews.
Not so! You make jesus a very confused Messiah!

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Jesus said HE WILL BUILDF, not has been building or will keep building. the church was born at Pentecost, not sometime in the OT.

The church has no part and parcel in the Covenants god made with Israel. We do receive the blessings of the New Covenant, but that is all.
 

QuantumBit

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I use this verse to guide me...

Galatians 4:26
"But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the
mother of us all."

Is it Mary? Nope...

Galatians 4:22
"For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman."


The Woman of the Apocalypse is the Freewoman. You should know who that is.

She is both the Heavenly Mother *and* Heavenly Jerusalem.

Indeed, there is a dichotomy here. :)
 

QuantumBit

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I noticed many see Rev 12 as a future event. I do not.

Does anyone else see it as a review of things past?
 
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QuantumBit

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To state that the Woman of the Apocalypse is Mary, brings many problems.

Here is one...

Revelation 12:17
"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."


Please meditate on the phrase 'remnant of her seed'. If the Woman is Mary, and her Seed is Jesus, then the remnant of her seed is the offspring of Jesus. In other words, the verse would be stating that Jesus has children.

This is why the Catholics 'spiritualize away' any literal interpretation and hijack the verse, making it about their Church.
 

Stumpmaster

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I noticed many see Rev 12 as a future event. I do not.

Does anyone else see it as a review of things past?
When the vision was given to John much of it was a review of things past, as you put it.

In Revelation 12:10, the tenses used are past perfect ("has been cast down") and present perfect ("have come"). The past perfect tense is used to describe an action that was completed before another past action. The present perfect tense is used to describe an action that started in the past and continues up to the present or has recently been completed.

Rev 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

In the context of Revelation 12:10, the phrase “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come” refers to a specific moment in time when these things have been fulfilled. This moment is not specified in the verse itself. The interpretation of this verse and its timing can vary among different Christian denominations and beliefs, but it is certain none of these things would exist without the death, resurrection, and ascension of Christ.
 

QuantumBit

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Rev 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.
Thank you for your post.

I am of the opinion that the verse you quoted above happened sometime between the story of Abraham and Sarah and the story of Exodus.

Basically, when Satan learned that Sarah was about to birth the Nation of Israel, that is when the war started with Michael. Satan was cast down sometime during that era. Maybe during the Sodom and Gomorrah event.

Satan's Power was given to the King of Egypt to create the first Antichrist and first head of the Beast...

Ezekiel 29:3
"Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself."


The Dragon (Pharaoh) went after the Israelites. The Earth swallowed the Red Sea and parted it to 'help the Woman'.

The Israelites were then nourished in the wilderness.

If we use a Day/Year Principle, we could possibly fit 1,260 years between the Exodus and the birth of Jesus.

Etc. Etc.

Remember, Michael and Satan argued over the body of Moses. Maybe it happened down here in the physical world. Maybe the argument was with Pharoah since Moses was Egyptian. Maybe the Pharoah wanted to have an Egyptian funeral for Moses. Who knows.

I would be interested in hearing about any problems with the above theories.
 

Stumpmaster

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Thank you for your post.

I am of the opinion that the verse you quoted above happened sometime between the story of Abraham and Sarah and the story of Exodus.

Basically, when Satan learned that Sarah was about to birth the Nation of Israel, that is when the war started with Michael. Satan was cast down sometime during that era. Maybe during the Sodom and Gomorrah event.

Satan's Power was given to the King of Egypt to create the first Antichrist and first head of the Beast...

Ezekiel 29:3
"Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself."


The Dragon (Pharaoh) went after the Israelites. The Earth swallowed the Red Sea and parted it to 'help the Woman'.

The Israelites were then nourished in the wilderness.

If we use a Day/Year Principle, we could possibly fit 1,260 years between the Exodus and the birth of Jesus.

Etc. Etc.

Remember, Michael and Satan argued over the body of Moses. Maybe it happened down here in the physical world. Maybe the argument was with Pharoah since Moses was Egyptian. Maybe the Pharoah wanted to have an Egyptian funeral for Moses. Who knows.

I would be interested in hearing about any problems with the above theories.
There are many parallels, types, and shadows in Scripture.

Conceptual imagery is used to create ideological pictures that extend beyond natural boundaries.

I have not been following this thread which is on a frequently discussed topic.

Any interpretations of Revelation 12 that exclude the woman being Israel and the man-child being our Saviour Jesus Christ has problems.
 
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Waiting on him

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Thank you for your post.

I am of the opinion that the verse you quoted above happened sometime between the story of Abraham and Sarah and the story of Exodus.

Basically, when Satan learned that Sarah was about to birth the Nation of Israel, that is when the war started with Michael. Satan was cast down sometime during that era. Maybe during the Sodom and Gomorrah event.

Satan's Power was given to the King of Egypt to create the first Antichrist and first head of the Beast...

Ezekiel 29:3
"Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself."


The Dragon (Pharaoh) went after the Israelites. The Earth swallowed the Red Sea and parted it to 'help the Woman'.

The Israelites were then nourished in the wilderness.

If we use a Day/Year Principle, we could possibly fit 1,260 years between the Exodus and the birth of Jesus.

Etc. Etc.

Remember, Michael and Satan argued over the body of Moses. Maybe it happened down here in the physical world. Maybe the argument was with Pharoah since Moses was Egyptian. Maybe the Pharoah wanted to have an Egyptian funeral for Moses. Who knows.

I would be interested in hearing about any problems with the above theories.
Revelation 11:8 KJV
[8] And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Maybe there was an exodus you are not familiar with?
 

No Pre-TB

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but those with agendas here, to attack premillennialism, by attempting to comment on that which isn't settled by far amongst scholars, has never been settled, and will never be settled in our lifetimes, but hey lets attack premillennialism while we're at it, and pretend we're smarter than everyone else?
Haha. You mean the +20 threads on how Pre-mil is wrong? :) Yes, everyone here is smarter than everyone else in the world after Christ till today. There is not a humbling spirit.
 
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Gandalf-

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Cool, can we throw some Barbs at each other, so we can all pretend to be smarter than everyone else? Ha!

Q: What happens when two Christians have a discussion?

A: You get about 50 different opinions, at the very least!!!!

Bwahahahaha!!!!

Yea I simply wanted to ask the question again, without the don't you know all pre-mills are stupid bias, to see what people really think. Every expert, exampled by the sample sites I quoted, look into it seriously. And if even semi serious about looking into it, all at least mention and discuss the three main interpretations, no matter which preference they have. Who are the rest of her children, etc.., for example?

So they discus, then give their own prefered opinion. But in here, I, and even up to everyone else, gets attacked for asking, or having an opinion.

My favorites are such as "son, don't get excited, .....it states gave birth, so it has to be Mary....." OK then, then who are the rest of her children who need protection too? And don't let this possibly blow their minds, but can there be different aspects, or a timeline of different aspects being revealed, in revelations given within Revelation?

Revelation gives fast paced action, which changes referents on a dime, as how they progress and relate? So is it wrong to simply ask the question already asked countless times within Christianity, without getting a condescending "Son ....." response? I'm over 60 years old, so how old are you, if I'm your son gramps? LOL
 

VCO

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Haha. You mean the +20 threads on how Pre-mil is wrong? :) Yes, everyone here is smarter than everyone else in the world after Christ till today. There is not a humbling spirit.

I know in my heart it will be Pre-Trib and it could be soon. Anyone who wants to stay behind, will get their wish. But I am looking foreword to the Wedding, and I have the Wedding Invitation already, in my Heart.

1682027095321.png1682027305209.png
 

VCO

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Haha. You mean the +20 threads on how Pre-mil is wrong? :) Yes, everyone here is smarter than everyone else in the world after Christ till today. There is not a humbling spirit.

Matthew 25:13 (NCV)
13 So always be ready, because you don’t know the day or the hour the Son of Man will come.

Matthew 25:13 (ISV)
13 So keep on watching, because you don't know the day or the hour."

Matthew 25:13 (NIV)
13 "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.

Matthew 25:13 (ASV)
13 Watch therefore, for ye know not the day nor the hour.

Matthew 25:13​

International Standard Version​

13 So keep on watching, because you don’t know the day or the hour.”[a]

Matthew 25:13​

Expanded Bible​

13 So ·always be ready [stay awake; be alert; keep watch], because you don’t know the day or the hour [C the Son of Man will come].


Do what you want to do, but most of us here, BELIEVE in doing what the Bible actually is Saying. NOTE: That is not the Second Coming, it is the Calling Out of the old dwelling place of the BRIDE. In the Traditional Jewish Wedding, the Bridegroom stops 2 or 3 blocks away, and sends the Chosen One to the Dwelling to Call out the BRIDE from outside the Brides Dwelling place, with a Trumpet and a Shout!
HE STOPS IN THE CLOUDS.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (HCSB)
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the archangel’s voice, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we will always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

That will happen so Quickly, is says this:

1 Corinthians 15:52-53 (ASV)
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. {That is not a reference to the last Trumpet Judgement, it is a Jewish Musical expression for the Last Note of the Shofar, and it is Held as long as the Trumpeter has breath. It will help if you will learn to study Judaism.}
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

That will happen VERY QUICKLY at the end of this Shofar CALL, approximately 7 Years before the Second Coming.


That is not to be confused with the Second Coming, it will Happen SO SLOWLY that all the Armies of the World have time to GATHER in ISRAEL to try to Stop HIM from coming BACK, a futile effort.

Revelation 19:11-21 (HCSB)
11 Then I saw heaven opened, and there was a white horse. Its rider is called Faithful and True, and He judges and makes war in righteousness.
12 His eyes were like a fiery flame, and many crowns were on His head. He had a name written that no one knows except Himself.
13 He wore a robe stained with blood, and His name is the Word of God.
14 The armies that were in heaven followed Him on white horses, wearing pure white linen.
15 A sharp sword came from His mouth, so that He might strike the nations with it. He will shepherd them with an iron scepter. He will also trample the winepress of the fierce anger of God, the Almighty.
16 And He has a name written on His robe and on His thigh: KING OF KINGSAND LORD OF LORDS.
17 Then I saw an angel standing on the sun, and he cried out in a loud voice, saying to all the birds flying high overhead, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God,
18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of commanders, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of their riders, and the flesh of everyone, both free and slave, small and great.”
19 Then I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and against His army.
20 But the beast was taken prisoner, and along with him the false prophet, who had performed the signs in his presence. He deceived those who accepted the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image with these signs. Both of them were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.
21 The rest were killed with the sword that came from the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Zechariah 14:1-4 (HCSB)
1 A day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided in your presence.
2 I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle. The city will be captured, the houses looted, and the women raped. Half the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be removed from the city.
3 Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations as He fights on a day of battle.
4 On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. The Mount of Olives will be split in half from east to west, forming a huge valley, so that half the mountain will move to the north and half to the south.
 

ewq1938

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Satan's Power was given to the King of Egypt to create the first Antichrist and first head of the Beast...

The heads of the beast are mountains, not persons (Rev 17). Also, the heads have no particular designations such as "first". The 10 horned beast kingdom simply is located within 7 mountains.
 

QuantumBit

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The heads of the beast are mountains, not persons (Rev 17). Also, the heads have no particular designations such as "first". The 10 horned beast kingdom simply is located within 7 mountains.

I take it you are SDA?

I agree with this translation...

Revelation 17:9-10 (New American Standard Bible)
Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains upon which the woman sits, and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while.


The Seven Heads are Seven Mountains *as well as* Seven Kings. There is nothing you can say to make me not believe what the Bible clearly teaches. Sorry.

As far as the order, again I go by the Word of God...

mhp-0860.png
I refuse to throw the entire history of the Old Testament into the garbage as you are doing to make your theory work. No way.