Is the Gift of Salvation nullified by the consequences of refusal?

[Charlie24]

As @stunnedbygrace pointed out, you're coming off as the "bad guy" here.
A reader's take on the exchange between us. I know you're not a bad guy, but I see how others might view this.

That being said, I'm being forced into a Theistic Agnosticism, or even Theistic Atheism by the church.
A church that will not hear another view of these things. I believe in God, but not the "God" the church is proclaiming.

You are acting as a representative of the church, I don't fault you for that. Five years ago, I might have done the same thing.
So, how could I find fault with your loving attempts to correct me? I have nothing but respect and appreciation. (hugs)

I would say that salvation is based on the finished work of Christ on our behalf.
Nothing to do with us, ultimately.

Pretty sure I do. Let me try.
Our justification is based on the finished work of Christ on our behalf.
Sanctification is the process whereby we are set apart for God, to do His will and grow in Him.
How did I do?

View attachment 30527

Right. I agree.

What do you make of this?

Romans 2:14-16 NIV
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

I've been dobed

As @stunnedbygrace pointed out, you're coming off as the "bad guy" here.
A reader's take on the exchange between us. I know you're not a bad guy, but I see how others might view this.

That being said, I'm being forced into a Theistic Agnosticism, or even Theistic Atheism by the church.
A church that will not hear another view of these things. I believe in God, but not the "God" the church is proclaiming.

You are acting as a representative of the church, I don't fault you for that. Five years ago, I might have done the same thing.
So, how could I find fault with your loving attempts to correct me? I have nothing but respect and appreciation. (hugs)

I would say that salvation is based on the finished work of Christ on our behalf.
Nothing to do with us, ultimately.

Pretty sure I do. Let me try.
Our justification is based on the finished work of Christ on our behalf.
Sanctification is the process whereby we are set apart for God, to do His will and grow in Him.
How did I do?

View attachment 30527

Right. I agree.

What do you make of this?

Romans 2:14-16 NIV
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

I've been daubed the bad guy on many occasions.

In this case, all because you fail to confirm the UR propaganda.

 

[St. SteVen]

I've been dobed


I've been daubed the bad guy on many occasions.

In this case, all because you fail to confirm the UR propaganda.

I think the word you are floundering to find is "dubbed". But I could be wrong.

I don't think your coming off as the bad guy has anything to do with my supposed failure "to confirm the UR propaganda."

You want propergander? (as the Brits might say) Here you go.

 

[Charlie24]

I think the word you are floundering to find is "dubbed". But I could be wrong.

I don't think your coming off as the bad guy has anything to do with my supposed failure "to confirm the UR propaganda."

You want propergander? (as the Brits might say) Here you go.

View attachment 30528

What would i do without you, Steven? How long has it been that you have kept me straight on proper word use and spelling?

The check is in the mail!

 

[St. SteVen]

What would i do without you, Steven? How long has it been that you have kept me straight on proper word use and spelling?

The check is in the mail!

No worries, I'm not purfict ether. I misspelled "you're" below. (a contraction of "you are" = you're)

St. SteVen said:
I don't think your coming off as the bad guy has anything to do with my supposed failure "to confirm the UR propaganda."

 

[Charlie24]

No worries, I'm not purfict ether. I misspelled "you're" below. (a contraction of "you are" = you're)

St. SteVen said:
I don't think your coming off as the bad guy has anything to do with my supposed failure "to confirm the UR propaganda."

Seriously, you have planted in my mind that I need to pay more attention to the words I use and spelling.

I think that's a good thing.

The last paper I wrote was in the 70's, graded paper in Bible school.

I well may be the only one in my class that never used what I learned. The rest are preachers, evangelists, and missionaries.

Probably my biggest failure concerning the Lord.

 

[St. SteVen]

Seriously, you have planted in my mind that I need to pay more attention to the words I use and spelling.

I think that's a good thing.

Sertainly.

The last paper I wrote was in the 70's, graded paper in Bible school.

I can imagine the blizzard of red pen marks.
Used to be a college instructor. Wore out my red pen. - LOL

I well may be the only one in my class that never used what I learned. The rest are preachers, evangelists, and missionaries.

Probably my biggest failure concerning the Lord.

You are such a disappointment. - LOL

Frankly, it is a BIGGER failure to BE in ministry WITHOUT a calling.
I would venture to say that God has you right where he wants you.
What is God doing through you where he planted you? Testify.

I am currently a support beam in my church. (despite my heretical doctrines, which I mostly keep to myself)
Making no claims to be a prophet, but I love this definition.

1 Corinthians 14:3 NIV
But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

There is a condition to salvation, that condition is faith alone in Jesus Christ, period! Let me explain that statement.

The unbeliever, the one who knows not God, has no thought of his sin, it's just a way of life. His conscience bears witness of that sin, but ignored long enough the result is a seared conscience. Now the unbeliever has no remorse, no thought, no awareness of his sin. He is totally lost and undone in this world, with no hope.

When that person hears the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and reacts favorably to it, believing it, instantly that person is baptized into the death of Christ. This is not water baptism, it's being immersed into the body of Christ. This person instantly receives the indwelling Holy Spirit, and is now a new creature in Christ, "behold all things have become new."

Whereas this person had no regard for his sin before believing, now he has made a 180 and sees the wrong in that sin. He can now see that his sin cost the death of our Lord. He now develops a hatred of that sin, he no longer wants to sin, he has been imparted a new nature. This new nature that comes by faith in Christ and now abides in this new creature, will now guard himself from that sin by the power of the Holy Spirit. It was all 100% faith in Christ that has brought this person to this understanding.

Now this person is no longer without hope, he has found the hope of Christ. He now wants to please Christ, honor Christ, and do the things that please Christ of his own free will. God is demanding nothing of this person, but that He believes in Jesus Christ. The rest will be taken care of by Him.

So now under the direction of the Holy Spirit this person sets out to do that which is good, that which is pleasing in the sight of the Lord. Now this person is ripe to bear the fruits of the Holy Spirit, but not of his own doing, but by the preparing of the Holy Spirit who lays out those works for him. Still, this person is doing nothing but believing in Jesus Christ, taking Him at His Word "to fulfill the righteousness of the Law in him."

As this person walks through his life believing and trusting in Christ, the Holy Spirit is at work opening doors, giving direction and laying a path for this believer to follow. Still it's all by faith alone in Jesus Christ.

This person begins to notice that the person he just meet by chance and witnessed the Gospel to him, was not by chance at all. He begins to realize, this was prepared for me, this whole thing was the work of the Holy Spirit preparing my works that I can bear fruit for Christ.

Now this person, by only faith in the finished work of Christ, is on his way to bearing much fruit for Christ, and the eyes of God are continuously following his path in preparation.

Not one verse anywhere in the NT teaches that failh alone, that is, faith apart from obedience to God, saves...not one verse. For there is no salvation apart from obedience to God's will. Paul wrote "obedience unto righteousness" Rom 6:16 meaning all the disobedient, unrighteous will be lost.

 

[Charlie24]

Sertainly.

I can imagine the blizzard of red pen marks.
Used to be a college instructor. Wore out my red pen. - LOL

You are such a disappointment. - LOL

Frankly, it is a BIGGER failure to BE in ministry WITHOUT a calling.
I would venture to say that God has you right where he wants you.
What is God doing through you where he planted you? Testify.

I am currently a support beam in my church. (despite my heretical doctrines, which I mostly keep to myself)
Making no claims to be a prophet, but I love this definition.

1 Corinthians 14:3 NIV
But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort.

Yes, I am a disappointment in several ways I suppose. That's one of the more difficult things we have to deal with, putting aside the regrets and bad decisions.

Paul said, "forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth to those things which are before."

It's easier said than done!

 

[Charlie24]

Not one verse anywhere in the NT teaches that failh alone, that is, faith apart from obedience to God, saves...not one verse. For there is no salvation apart from obedience to God's will. Paul wrote "obedience unto righteousness" Rom 6:16 meaning all the disobedient, unrighteous will be lost.

Hello Ernest! Read this carefully from Paul and tell me if works has no part in salvation, as he said, what is left?

Eph. 2:8-9

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast."

What's left? It's faith alone!

You are following what James has said about faith and works, and you have totally misunderstood what he was saying.

If he is saying what you claim, then Paul is a liar!

 

[dev553344]

St. SteVen said:
Not a "free gift" then?


Not a "free gift" then. Okay.

That seems harsh. (to say the least) There must be a better solution.
But perhaps we are misunderstanding what God wants?

What do we do with undesirables? Incinerate them, or seek to correct them?

The free gift is not offered to everyone?
Might be a rude awakening when we find out that we are ALL selfish. Then what?

I thought it was 'the love of money", that is the root of all evil.

1 Timothy 6:10 NIV
For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil.
Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith
and pierced themselves with many griefs.

I come from the school that reads the bible and accepts it, in its entirety. I'm familiar with what you are trying to teach. Holding onto one or two verses and throwing out the rest. Well I weighed in on the debate in hopes that if people read it they can also hear the truth. So I'll leave you to your peace. Cheers.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Hello Ernest! Read this carefully from Paul and tell me if works has no part in salvation, as he said, what is left?

Eph. 2:8-9

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast."

What's left? It's faith alone!

You are following what James has said about faith and works, and you have totally misunderstood what he was saying.

If he is saying what you claim, then Paul is a liar!

Paul does not contradict himself as you are trying to make him. Paul in Rom 6:16-18 clearly shows that obedience to God' "obey from the heart" is what justifies. Therefore Eph 2:8-9 does not contradict the Rom 6:16-18 and many other verses that require obedience to be justified/saved. The "not of works" of Eph 2:8 refers to works of merit and obedience to God is not a work of merit...two completely different things.

Men are either being obedient to God's will or being disobeoent to God's will...there is no middle ground or third option. Nowhere ever does the Bible teach the disobedient will be saved, just the obeident will be saved hence faith of the NT includes obedience.

Rom 5:1-2----------------faith >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> justifies
Rom 6:17-19---------obeying >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> justifies/frees from sin

Since there is just one way to be saved and the Bible DOES NOT CONTRADICT ITSELF that means faith MUST include obedience.

 

[Charlie24]

Paul does not contradict himself as you are trying to make him. Paul in Rom 6:16-18 clearly shows that obedience to God' "obey from the heart" is what justifies. Therefore Eph 2:8-9 does not contradict the Rom 6:16-18 and many other verses that require obedience to be justified/saved. The "not of works" of Eph 2:8 refers to works of merit and obedience to God is not a work of merit...two completely different things.

Men are either being obedient to God's will or being disobeoent to God's will...there is no middle ground or third option. Nowhere ever does the Bible teach the disobedient will be saved, just the obeident will be saved hence faith of the NT includes obedience.

Rom 5:1-2----------------faith >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> justifies
Rom 6:17-19---------obeying >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> justifies/frees from sin

Since there is just one way to be saved and the Bible DOES NOT CONTRADICT ITSELF that means faith MUST include obedience.

Salvation comes from the heart through believing, no works of any kind involved.

Rom. 10:9-10

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

Again, faith alone! The obedience for salvation is simply believing.

The obedience in our sanctification is where the works come in.

 

[St. SteVen]

Yes, I am a disappointment in several ways I suppose. That's one of the more difficult things we have to deal with, putting aside the regrets and bad decisions.

Paul said, "forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth to those things which are before."

It's easier said than done!

C'mon now, lad. (St. Pat's hangover. No, not that kind - LOL)

The one who started a good work in you will BOTH continue and bring to maturity His best intentions for ya. (oops, thar tis again)

Why did God intentionally put you where you are now? You have a beachhead to work. Get on with it.

 

[St. SteVen]

... Holding onto one or two verses and throwing out the rest. ...

Thanks.
I'm familiar with that argument as well.
They want us to explain their half dozen while ignoring our two dozen, and the rest of the Bible too.

 

[Charlie24]

C'mon now, lad. (St. Pat's hangover. No, not that kind - LOL)

The one who started a good work in you will BOTH continue and bring to maturity His best intentions for ya. (oops, thar tis again)

Why did God intentionally put you where you are now? You have a beachhead to work. Get on with it.

I would say that is sound advice! Just not so easy at times.

But yes, Charlie has moved on, always in debt to Him.

 

[dev553344]

Thanks.
I'm familiar with that argument as well.
They want us to explain their half dozen while ignoring our two dozen, and the rest of the Bible too.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
​

New King James Version
​

​

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for [a]instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Salvation comes from the heart through believing, no works of any kind involved.

Rom. 10:9-10

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

Again, faith alone! The obedience for salvation is simply believing.

The obedience in our sanctification is where the works come in.

--- Eph 2:8-9 does NOT say "no works of any kind", you have added your ideas to that verse. Again, the Bible DOES NOT CONTRADICT itself therefore when verses as Rom 6:16-18; Heb 5:9; Acts 2:38; etc require/command obedience then no verse can then eliminate obedience else that is a pure contradiction.

--- you contradict yourself further by quoting Romans 10:9-10 that requires BOTH belief AND confession with the mouth. Therefore belief only cannot ever save those who will not confess (Jn 12:42; Matt 10:32-33) as belief only cannot ever save those who will not repent (Luke 13:3; Romans 2:4-5).

--nowhere does the NT gospel teach one is saved BEFORE one is obedient to God's will, God's first requires obedience before one can receive His gift of salvation. There is no verse you can produce that teaches God saves those who continue in disobedience to His will.......1 Jn 3:10 "...whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God...". The present tense of the verbs shows that those who continue to not do righteousness continue to not be of God. Therefore those that continue to not obey God continue to not be of God for God accepts those who worketh righteousness - obey God's righteous commands (Acts 10:35).

 

[Charlie24]

--- Eph 2:8-9 does NOT say "no works of any kind", you have added your ideas to that verse. Again, the Bible DOES NOT CONTRADICT itself therefore when verses as Rom 6:16-18; Heb 5:9; Acts 2:38; etc require/command obedience then no verse can then eliminate obedience else that is a pure contradiction.

--- you contradict yourself further by quoting Romans 10:9-10 that requires BOTH belief AND confession with the mouth. Therefore belief only cannot ever save those who will not confess (Jn 12:42; Matt 10:32-33) as belief only cannot ever save those who will not repent (Luke 13:3; Romans 2:4-5).

--nowhere does the NT gospel teach one is saved BEFORE one is obedient to God's will, God's first requires obedience before one can receive His gift of salvation. There is no verse you can produce that teaches God saves those who continue in disobedience to His will.......1 Jn 3:10 "...whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God...". The present tense of the verbs shows that those who continue to not do righteousness continue to not be of God. Therefore those that continue to not obey God continue to not be of God for God accepts those who worketh righteousness - obey God's righteous commands (Acts 10:35).

LOL, ok Ernest, you hold on to your faith and obedience, and I'll hold on to my faith alone depending on Him to fulfill the righteousness in me.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

LOL, ok Ernest, you hold on to your faith and obedience, and I'll hold on to my faith alone depending on Him to fulfill the righteousness in me.

Sure...we'll see where obedience gets people and where disobedience gets people.

 

[mailmandan]

LOL, ok Ernest, you hold on to your faith and obedience, and I'll hold on to my faith alone depending on Him to fulfill the righteousness in me.

Through bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics, he teaches salvation by faith (his version of faith) AND WORKS in violation of (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) no matter how much he tries to sugar coat it.