Is the Gift of Salvation nullified by the consequences of refusal?

[amigo de christo]

Believing only which does not result in producing obedient works at all is not saving belief in Christ and is no different than the belief of devils. (James 2:19) Works of obedience/good works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic belief/faith. All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) Without faith it's impossible to please God no matter how many so-called obedient works that you attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation by works. (Matthew 7:21-23)


This is an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14) *Notice "says/claims" (key word) to have faith yet has no works. Can that faith saves him? That is not authentic faith but a bare profession of faith. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root.

James is not using the word "justified" in James 2:24 to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) *Hermeneutics*


Belief/faith that trusts only in Christ for salvation is the act of obedience that saves. Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

So, man is saved by belief/faith "apart from the merit of works" (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) yet authentic faith does not remain alone "apart from the presence of works." (James 2:24-26)


The actual truth is hard to swallow for works-salvationists. The act of obedience that saves is choosing to believe the gospel. (Romans 1:16; 10:16) Not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works "which" follows. (Ephesians 2:10) What's hard to swallow is salvation by faith AND works when the Bible clearly says we are saved by grace through faith, NOT WORKS. (Ephesians 2:8.9) Seeking salvation by works is not obedience. Its self-righteousness motivated by pride and unbelief.

Salvation is found in one name and one name alone . JESUS the GLORIOUS CHRIST OF GOD .
Why was it that israel could not enter into the promised land .
UNBELIEF .
Notice they made the claim to believe in GOD , but did not BELIEVE HIM .
GOD had told them the promised land would be theirs .
But fear of men caused them to Believe they would not , could not inhabit it .
If a man claims to BELIEVE IN GOD
and yet does not believe in the testimony that GOD gave of His Son . He calls God a liar
HE has no BELIEF IN GOD , no love for GOD .
For HAD he loved GOD , HE WOULD have LOVED JESUS CHRIST .
And if a man cliams to love Christ and yet rejects His teachings , HE has NO LOVE FOR CHRIST .
The proof of who one belongs too can be seen by the fruits .
For what a man loves that he will do . But GOD has put the TRUE LOVE upon the hearts
of the lambs . That love REJOICES in TRUTH and not in a lie .
That LOVE is of the SPIRIT , it comes from GOD . IT would thus , LOVE THE PURE AND HOLY WORDS
of the LORD .
My friend too many are following another jesus , rejoicing in the lie of another gospel that has made
that road to GOD very broad through a lie . And those who love a lie and make a lie
DO NOT KNOW HIM . Any love that comes of GOD loves the things of GOD
but the love that cometh of the world will embrace and love the things of the world .
Too many even within the christain realm , KNOW neither LOVE NOR GOD .
YET those same ones , all they do is HOLLER GOD IS LOVE as they follow this other love and thus
they follow the other god whose desire always has been to be AS GOD .
Folks dont think satan can quoate scrips . BUT HE CAN and so can his men . But beware
their version of love thy neighbor and god . CAUSE their love rejoices in inquity , in lies
and has a deep rooted hatred for TRUTH and those who do correct with TRUTH .

 

[mailmandan]

I am amazed that we still after all this time have people believe God needs their help to save him, that the cross was not enough. That jesus said, I did my part. now you do yours.

When will people get out of Gods way and let him save you?

That salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9) is not hard to understand. It's just hard for works-salvationists to ACCEPT. It's a shame that human pride will not allow works-salvationists to trust in Jesus Christ as the ALL-SUFFICIENT means of their salvation. Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to receive Christ through faith.

 

[Titus]

God imputes righteousness apart from works. (Romans 4:6) Yet Titus says otherwise.

Dan, hello.
No, God does not impute righteousness to anyone apart from works.
Paul is saying God does not impute righteousness to anyone because of the works of the law of Moses.
You are making the mistake of putting all works into one category i.e. meritorious works, works of man.

This is very important for you to understand. I am saying works are obedience to Gods commandments.
when I speak of works that save, I'm speaking of the works of God not works of man i.e. meritorious works.
Remember works=obedience to Gods commandments.

No one is saved by their own works.

Dan, you contradict yourself every time you teach on salvation.

Listen to yourself Dan teach no works in salvation:

God imputes righteousness apart from works. (Romans 4:6) Yet Titus says otherwise.

If God imparts righteousness i.e. justification apart from works, then FAITH CANNOT BE NECESSARY FOR SALVATION

Faith is a command given by God.

Dan is teaching no works salvation.
Which is the same as no obedience salvation.

When one believes in Jesus one has obeyed a commandment of God.
Therefore it is impossible to have no obedient works in salvation as Dan teaches.

You must obey which is a work, to believe in Jesus Christ.
Dan teaches we don't obey/work any commandment to be saved,
Commandments must be worked or we cannot be saved!

1John 3:23-24,
- And this is Gods commandment, that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ...as God gave us commandment

We learn from John, that Faith is a work of obedience to Gods commandments.

So, to say faith alone apart from works saves, contradicts the Bible which teaches faith itself is a work a commandment that must be obeyed.

Dan's gospel has no obedience to Gods commandments in order to be saved.
This is not taught anywhere in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Choosing to believe the gospel is the act of obedience that saves. Romans 10:16

Above quote from Dan shows his confusion in understanding the gospel.
First Dan taught no works/obedience to be saved.
Now Dan contradicts his own theology by teaching one act of obedience is required to be saved i.e. faith.

Dan dosen't realize he has just taught an act of obedience to Gods commandment, 1John 3:23-24 the commandment to obey, believe in Jesus as a requirement to be saved.

All acts of obedience is obeying Gods commandments.
Obeying Gods commandments is works of obedience.

Dan denies works in salvation, but has taught the work/obedience, act of obedience is in salvation.

Dan tries to deny works while including works in salvation.

God imputes righteousness apart from works. (Romans 4:6) Yet Titus says otherwise.

Romans 4:6, Dan believes no works are being taught by Paul.
Not so. Paul is teaching Abraham was saved by a faith that obeyed God BEFORE THE LAW OF MOSES WAS INSTITUTED!!! The Jewish converts in the book of Romans believed the law of Moses could justify them. Paul is using Abraham as an example to show them no one is made righteous by the works of the law of Moses.
Abraham was imputed righteousness by his obedient faith to God.
Acts of obedience are Acts of faith.
Abraham's faith was a faith of obedience. The Bible calls faith that obeys Gods commandments obedient works.

Learn from James how Abraham's obedient faith not the law of Moses justified him as righteous before God,
James 2:21-26,
- Was not Abraham our father justified(imputed righteousness) by works, when he offered Isaac his son on the altar
- Seest how faith(obedient faith) wrought with his works(obedience to Gods commandments) and by works(obedience) was faith made  perfect

James teaches faith without works/obedience is not perfect meaning incomplete.
Dan is trying to be saved with a incomplete imperfect faith!!!

23 - and the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God(meaning he obeyed/ worked Gods commandments) and it was imputed unto him for righteousness and he was called the friend of God
- Ye see then how by works(obedience to Gods commandments) a man is justified(accounted righteous) and NOT by faith alone(Dan's false saving faith)

Ye see then how by works a man is justified and not by faith alone

Now back to Paul teaching Abraham was imputed righteousness by faith and NOT by the works of the old law of Moses.

Remember Abraham had a law given to him directly from God.
Abraham lived BEFORE the law of Moses.
So Abraham's faith was a working faith of obedience to Gods Patriarchal law.

In Genesis chapter 12 Abraham obeys God
That obedience is working Gods commandments.
God told Abraham to leave his land.
Abraham believed and obeyed Gods commands.
When Abraham was doing what God commanded him, he was working the commandments of God.

Abraham had already done works of obedience, acts of faith before Genesis 15 when God accounts Abraham' faith as righteousness.
Therefore Abraham's faith was not faith apart from works but a faith that acted through obedience to Gods commandments. Abraham was justified with a faith that worked, obeyed just as James said,

Genesis 12 Abraham has already done works
Genesis 15 God says Abraham' faith is imputed as righteousness
This is what Paul is quoting in Romans 4:3
Paul never taught Abraham was justified by faith apart from ALL works.
Abraham according to Paul was justified apart from the works in the law of Moses, Romans 4:3

Romans 4:3,
- for what saith the scripture, Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness
Genesis 15:6,
- And Abraham believed in the Lord and God counted it to him for righteousness
James 2:22-23, 24
- And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God and it was imputed unto him for righteousness and he was called the friend of God

- Ye see then how that by works a man is justified and not by faith alone

God imputes righteousness apart from works. (Romans 4:6) Yet Titus says otherwise.

Dan leaves the context when he says Titus says otherwise.
Not True!!!!
I agree with Paul.
God imputes righteousness apart from works of the law of Moses.

Dan's arguments do not hold up if we keep the verse in context.

Paul again in verse 6 teaches works of the law of Moses does not make one righteous.
I 100% agree with Paul!

Romans 4:6,
- Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works

Amen Paul! No works in the law of Moses ever saved anyone!!!!! Like David for example.
Jews had forgotten about Gods grace and thought keeping laws of Moses could justify them save them.
That is meriting salvation through works, and Paul was condemning this idea in Romans chapter 4.


No works/obedience in salvation Dan?
Then no commandments must be obeyed, no doing the works in Jesus' gospel like faith, 1John 3:23-24.

Dan's gospel is a gospel of salvation by faith alone and disobedience to Jesus' commandments.
A disobedient faith never saved anyone!

 

[Titus]

Obedience to God's commandments/salvation by works is the gospel according to Titus

This is a misrepresentation of what I believe Dan.
Salvation by works is not the gospel of Jesus Christ

That is the very idea the Jews had in Romans chapter 4
Paul is trying to show them they cannot work the law of Moses and be saved by meritorious works.
No Grace no salvation!

Jesus' gospel teaches we are saved by Gods grace and our faith.
Faith rightly defined includes obedience to Gods commandments.

Works of obedience or another way of saying it, Acts of faith are required by God to receive His grace.

As proven already faith is an act of obedience to Gods commandment, 1John 3:23-24.

So, the only way Dan can be correct that no obedient works are involved in salvation is to remove faith from salvation!

The works do not merit anything.
Gods grace is CONDITIONAL upon our obedience to Jesus' gospel.


These works that are required to recieve Gods grace are not works of man, not works of merit.
They are works of God that we must work go recieve Gods grace.

All these works in Jesus' gospel are ACTS OF FAITH
They all are doing Gods will by faith.

Faith is an act not mental assent.

Faith that saves is a faith that obeys God.

Dan teaches an unbiblical faith that saves without working the commandments of God.
Faith apart from works is a disobedient faith.

Dan teaches his gospel has no works that save us.
That is impossible!
Without works we could not be saved.
By works that save I ONLY mean the works of God NEVER the works of man.

John 17:4,
- I have glorified You on the earth I have finished the  work which You have given Me to do

No one is saved by there own works, Ephesians 2:8-9

Salvation comes by the works of God.
His grace, mercy, salvation comes through His works.

Dan is wrong.
I do not teach man works His own works to be saved.

I teach Salvation is obtained through Grace and faith.
That faith is not alone, James 2:24
Saving faith is obedience to Jesus' commandments in His gospel.
Faith Biblical: belief in Jesus and obedience to Jesus' gospel.
Jesus' gospel includes commandments, therefore we must work these commandments.
There is no earning salvation by obeying Gods commandments.

If so then obeying the commandment to believe in Jesus, 1John 3:23-24 is meriting our salvation.
I Know Dan will not admit to this! But he will contradict himself and say obeying other commandments like baptism is meriting salvation.


To show the ridiculousness of Dan's reasoning,
Dan, we must obey the commandment to believe in Jesus, 1John 3:23-24.

You know that doing the commandments are works

This is why you condemn the working, obeying of the commandment to be baptized as a requirement to be saved.

Here is the contradiction in Dan's faith only and no works gospel.

He says you must obey the commandment to believe in Jesus, 1John 3:23-24.
Then says no works, no keeping commandments are allowed in salvation.

Look at these two commandments in Jesus' gospel.

Dan's false gospel will approve of one and condemn the other.

Dan will teach faith is not a work even though it is a commandment in Jesus' gospel
But then contradict himself and say baptism which is also a commandment in Jesus gospel is a work.

They are both commandments that must be obeyed!

1John 3:23-24,
- and this is Gods commandment that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ

Acts 10:48,
- And Peter commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord

Dan will claim one work of obedience is not meriting salvation.
Then claim the other work of obedience is meriting salvation.

This is how Dan falsely accuses me of salvation by works

What Dan will NEVER admit is his gospel has a work to be saved
Faith is a work because it is commanded that we obey it just like the commandment to be baptized

Dan's gospel, faith must be obeyed
Baptism can be disobeyed and be saved.

What confusion!

Dan you teach a gospel of salvation through disobedience to Jesus' gospel commandments.

Then when someone like myself teaches the true gospel, that one must obey all of Jesus' steps of salvation,
Believe, 1John 3:23-24,
Repent, Acts 17:30-31,
Confess Christ, Romans 10:9-10,
Baptism, Acts 2:38

We are teaching one merits their salvation through works!

You better get the work of faith out of your gospel Dan otherwise you have contradicted your own teaching of salvation apart from works!

John 6:28-29

 

[quietthinker]

Is the Gift of Salvation nullified by the consequences of refusal?​

What God has done no man can undo.
Refusing what God has done is no reflection on God. It reveals the madness of sin and persisted in will bear its consequence (s)

 

[teamventure]

Again, well stated. But we are left with the same problem.
Salvation is not a free gift if it comes with the worst consequences imaginable for refusal to accept it.

What is the nature of a "gift"?
- It's free. (check)
- You can't earn it. (check)
- Nothing is expected in return. (hopefully, or it isn't free)
- Consequences for refusal would make it extortion. (oops, we have a problem)

So you're accusing God of extortion? I would be careful.

 

[St. SteVen]

So you're accusing God of extortion? I would be careful.

Not God. The human institution of the church.
The "free gift" or "eternal torment" offer is extortion.
Not really a choice. Believe, or burn.

 

[mailmandan]

Titus said:
Dan, hello.
No, God does not impute righteousness to anyone apart from works.

To the contrary. Romans 4:6 - just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. Your argument is with God, not me.

Paul is saying God does not impute righteousness to anyone because of the works of the law of Moses.

Paul simply said, "apart from works" in Romans 4:6 and not works of the law of Moses and regardless, when it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect good works in general from the law of Moses so works in general is still covered. In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses. (Leviticus 19:18)

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Now please explain to me which good works could a Christian accomplish which are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). *NOWHERE does the Bible teach we are saved by grace through faith "plus works of any kind." That is salvation by works no matter how much you try and sugar coat it. Roman Catholics also try to get around the truth with your same argument - saved by "these" works (good works) and just not "those" works (works of the law of Moses).

You are making the mistake of putting all works into one category i.e. meritorious works, works of man.

If we were saved by faith + works then those works would be meritorious works. This is very important for you to understand. Paul clearly stated that God imputes righteousness apart from works in Romans 4:6. Paul also said we are saved by grace through faith, not works in Ephesians 2:8,9. Paul also said that it is not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy He saved us in Titus 3:5. Paul also said that God saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works in 2 Timothy 1:9. So it's not merely specific works of the law that do not save us but works in general.

This is very important for you to understand. I am saying works are obedience to Gods commandments.
when I speak of works that save, I'm speaking of the works of God not works of man i.e. meritorious works.
Remember works=obedience to Gods commandments.

So you were saved by obeying ALL of God's commandments? You clearly teach salvation by works and don't even seem to realize it. Calling these works "works of God" does not change the fact that you teach salvation by works in contradiction to scripture. Show me one verse where Paul says we are saved by grace through faith AND works of God. I'll be waiting.

No one is saved by their own works.

Does God do these works for man while man is passive or does man accomplish these works? No one is saved by works period, regardless of what label you slap on these works. Paul covered all the bases on works in general.

Dan, you contradict yourself every time you teach on salvation.

That statement is the epitome of irony.

Listen to yourself Dan teach no works in salvation:

I teach what the Bible teaches. (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

If God imparts righteousness i.e. justification apart from works, then FAITH CANNOT BE NECESSARY FOR SALVATION

Faith is not works. Saved by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Note the distinction. You really make this difficult.

Faith is a command given by God.

Still does not mean that faith is works.

Dan is teaching no works salvation.

Titus is teaching salvation by works.

Which is the same as no obedience salvation.

There is a difference between the obedient act of choosing to believe the gospel salvation (Romans 1:16; 10:16) and obedience/works salvation which is no salvation at all. Seeking salvation by works is not obedience. It's unbelief. (2 Corinthians 4:3,4)

When one believes in Jesus one has obeyed a commandment of God.
Therefore it is impossible to have no obedient works in salvation as Dan teaches.

So you try to lump believing in Jesus unto salvation with ALL the commandments of God. That argument culminates in obeying ALL the commandments of God for salvation. Have you flawlessly obeyed ALL the commandments of God? Are you sinless and perfect?

You must obey which is a work, to believe in Jesus Christ.

What makes it a work just like any other work? Why did Paul makes a distinction between faith AND works in Ephesians 2:8,9 if faith is just another work? It's not just another work in a series of works in a quest to obtain salvation by works.

Dan teaches we don't obey/work any commandment to be saved,

Dan teaches we are saved by grace through faith, not works, just as the Bible teaches. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Commandments must be worked or we cannot be saved!

Which commandments? Does that include the 10 commandments from the old covenant of law?

1John 3:23-24,
- And this is Gods commandment, that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ...as God gave us commandment

There are numerous commandments throughout scripture, so which other commandments do you "add" to 1 John 3:23-24? SDA's are big on teaching we must obey the 10 commandments (with a heavy emphasis on the 4th commandment - keeping the sabbath day holy) in order to be saved. See where this commandment keeping argument can lead to? Works-righteousness.

We learn from John, that Faith is a work of obedience to Gods commandments.

Oh, so now it's God's commandments (plural) and now you are saying faith "is" obeying God's commandments (plural). Which one's?

So, to say faith alone apart from works saves, contradicts the Bible which teaches faith itself is a work a commandment that must be obeyed.

No contradiction here. Paul clearly stated that God imputes righteousness apart from works in Romans 4:6. In Romans 5:1, Paul also said, "therefore having been justified by faith (faith plus what? Faith plus nothing, faith alone) we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Paul went on to say in verse 2 that we have access by faith (faith plus what? Fath plus nothing, faith alone) into this grace in which we stand..

Dan's gospel has no obedience to Gods commandments in order to be saved.

Dan's gospel is not in contradiction to 1 John 3:23-24 (God's commandments - singular) believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ in order to be saved, which is also in harmony with 1 John 5:13. Titus' gospel "adds" multiple commandments/works to believing on the name of His Son Jesus Christ for salvation which culminates in salvation by works. Perverting the gospel is not obedience.

CONTINUED...

 

[mailmandan]

Titus said:
This is not taught anywhere in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Romans 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who believes, (believes plus what? Simply believes) for the Jew first and also for the Greek. What happened to multiple acts of obedience/obeying multiple commandments/works salvation here? Did Paul forget to mention it?

Above quote from Dan shows his confusion in understanding the gospel.

Titus shows us his confusion in understanding the gospel and it's because he teaches salvation by works. The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-SUFFICIENT means of our salvation. Plain and simple. Let me know when you are ready to believe the gospel.

First Dan taught no works/obedience to be saved.
Now Dan contradicts his own theology by teaching one act of obedience is required to be saved i.e. faith.

That's not a contradiction and one obedient act of choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16; 10:16) does not equates to multiple obedient acts of obedience by accomplishing multiple good works and salvation through faith is not salvation by works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) You sound more like a crafty lawyer than you do a good Berean.

Dan dosen't realize he has just taught an act of obedience to Gods commandment, 1John 3:23-24 the commandment to obey, believe in Jesus as a requirement to be saved.

I don't deny 1 John 3:23-24, yet that one commandment is not multiple commandments/works salvation and faith is not works.

All acts of obedience is obeying Gods commandments.
Obeying Gods commandments is works of obedience.

Have you obeyed ALL of God's commandments? Are you sinless and perfect? The obvious answer is NO and obedience to ALL of God's commandments is not the pathway to salvation because ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23; 1 John 1:8-10)

Dan denies works in salvation, but has taught the work/obedience, act of obedience is in salvation.

One act of obedience (choosing to believe the gospel in salvation) does not represent multiple acts of obedience/works salvation.

Dan tries to deny works while including works in salvation.

Straw man argument. You are not being honest. I never said that faith "is" works.

Romans 4:6, Dan believes no works are being taught by Paul.
Not so. Paul is teaching Abraham was saved by a faith that obeyed God BEFORE THE LAW OF MOSES WAS INSTITUTED!!!

That actually blows your "not by works of the law of Moses only" argument out of the water!!!

The Jewish converts in the book of Romans believed the law of Moses could justify them. Paul is using Abraham as an example to show them no one is made righteous by the works of the law of Moses.

No one is made righteous by works in general. (Romans 4:2-6) Abraham was before the law of Moses. Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: You have to try really hard to explain away this crystal-clear truth.

Abraham was imputed righteousness by his obedient faith to God.

Is that what Romans 4:2-3 says? Obedience faith? NO. You already said obedience "is" works and now you are trying to "shoehorn" works "into" faith in Romans 4:2-6. Roman Catholics make the same error, just as all works-salvationists do.

Acts of obedience are Acts of faith.

Acts of obedience which follow faith and are produced "out of" faith are not faith itself.

Abraham's faith was a faith of obedience. The Bible calls faith that obeys Gods commandments obedient works.

Good grief you are so mixed up! So was I prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church. I mixed up faith, works, obedience and the end result for me then was salvation by works, just as it is for you now. The obedient act of offering up his son Isaac happened many years AFTER Abraham was justified by faith.

Learn from James how Abraham's obedient faith not the law of Moses justified him as righteous before God,
James 2:21-26,
- Was not Abraham our father justified(imputed righteousness) by works, when he offered Isaac his son on the altar
- Seest how faith(obedient faith) wrought with his works(obedience to Gods commandments) and by works(obedience) was faith made  perfect

You have a lot to learn. In James 2:21, notice that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) Read and learn.

CONTINUED...

 

[mailmandan]

Titus said:
James teaches faith without works/obedience is not perfect meaning incomplete.
Dan is trying to be saved with a incomplete imperfect faith!!!

Straw man argument. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. My faith is not incomplete. It resulted in works, yet I was saved through faith, not works, just as Abraham was and all other believers were. According to your flawed argument, Romans 4:2-6 is a complete lie.

23 - and the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God(meaning he obeyed/ worked Gods commandments) and it was imputed unto him for righteousness and he was called the friend of God

False. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

Ye see then how by works a man is justified and not by faith alone. - Ye see then how by works (obedience to Gods commandments) a man is justified (accounted righteous) and NOT by faith alone (Dan's false saving faith)

Dan does not teach salvation by an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works" (James 2:14) so your false accusation is a straw man argument.

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

James is not using the word "justified" in James 2:24 to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

Now back to Paul teaching Abraham was imputed righteousness by faith and NOT by the works of the old law of Moses.

Abraham was BEFORE the law of Moses and Romans 4:2-3 blows your flawed argument right out of the water.

Remember Abraham had a law given to him directly from God.

Not the law of Moses.

Abraham lived BEFORE the law of Moses.

Exactly, so it's not works of the law of Moses here.

So Abraham's faith was a working faith of obedience to Gods Patriarchal law.

Good grief. You just don't get it.

In Genesis chapter 12 Abraham obeys God
That obedience is working Gods commandments.
God told Abraham to leave his land.
Abraham believed and obeyed Gods commands.
When Abraham was doing what God commanded him, he was working the commandments of God.

You will go to any means in order to "shoehorn" works "into" salvation through faith. You are motivated by pride and must really be starving for credit. Chapter 12 said nothing about Abraham's faith being accounted to him for righteousness simply because he left his home. Keep reading up to Genesis 15:5-6 to find out how Abraham's faith (and not his works) was accounted to him for righteousness.

Abraham had already done works of obedience, acts of faith before Genesis 15 when God accounts Abraham' faith as righteousness.

So what? Abraham simply left his home. You call that works salvation? You are unbelievable! Just believe Genesis 15:5-6 and Romans 4:2-3 and put down your shoehorn.

Therefore Abraham's faith was not faith apart from works but a faith that acted through obedience to Gods commandments. Abraham was justified with a faith that worked, obeyed just as James said,

Flawed argument which does not result in works righteousness. So why didn't James mention this in James 2:21? The works that James mentions is Abraham offering up his son Isaac which took place many years in Genesis 22.

Genesis 12 Abraham has already done works

So why didn't Paul mention this in Romans 4:2-3? Genesis 12 is not works salvation. I can't believe how desperate you have become to justify your "works based" false gospel.

Genesis 15 God says Abraham' faith is imputed as righteousness

Faith, not works. Also see Romans 4:2-3.

CONTINUED...

 

[mailmandan]

Titus said:
This is what Paul is quoting in Romans 4:3
Paul never taught Abraham was justified by faith apart from ALL works.
Abraham according to Paul was justified apart from the works in the law of Moses, Romans 4:3

Abraham was BEFORE the law of Moses, so your argument does not hold water. Plus, in Romans 4:3, Paul simply said Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. No works included, so ALL works apply.

Romans 4:3,
- for what saith the scripture, Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness

Abraham believed God "apart from additions or modification" no works included. Are you really that blind?

Genesis 15:6,
- And Abraham believed in the Lord and God counted it to him for righteousness

Abraham believed in the Lord "apart from additions or modifications" and God counted it to him for righteousness.

James 2:22-23, 24
- And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God and it was imputed unto him for righteousness and he was called the friend of God

Once again, in James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous.

- Ye see then how that by works a man is justified and not by faith alone

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified (shown to be righteous) and not by and empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works." (James 2:14, 24)

Dan leaves the context when he says Titus says otherwise.
Not True!!!!
I agree with Paul.
God imputes righteousness apart from works of the law of Moses.

Titus does not agree with Paul because Paul does not limit works simply to specific works of the law but includes works in general. (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..). Roman Catholics would agree with you. Not in good company.

Dan's arguments do not hold up if we keep the verse in context.

My argument does hold up. It's your "works based" false gospel that does not hold up.

Paul again in verse 6 teaches works of the law of Moses does not make one righteous.
I 100% agree with Paul!

You agree 100% with your church and not with Paul. Paul not only says works but works of righteousness (Titus 3:5) and our works. (2 Timothy 1:9) ALL works. Good luck trying to work your way to heaven! I already know the outcome.

Romans 4:6,
- Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works

What part of "without works" don't you understand? Also, if other works are included in being accounted as righteous (as you erroneously teach) then why did Paul forget to mention them in Romans 4:2-6?

Amen Paul! No works in the law of Moses ever saved anyone!!!!! Like David for example.
Jews had forgotten about Gods grace and thought keeping laws of Moses could justify them save them.
That is meriting salvation through works, and Paul was condemning this idea in Romans chapter 4.

The Roman Catholic church is in 100% agreement with your flawed argument here, but Paul and Dan are not in agreement with you. Any works that you "add" to salvation through faith would be meriting salvation. You just can't seem to get that through your thick skull.

No works/obedience in salvation Dan?
Then no commandments must be obeyed, no doing the works in Jesus' gospel like faith, 1John 3:23-24.

Faith is not works and this commandment (singular) here is not commandments (plural). You are heavily indoctrinated and truly deceived.

Dan's gospel is a gospel of salvation by faith alone and disobedience to Jesus' commandments.

Salvation by faith in Christ alone is the gospel that saves. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16) That is obedience to the commandment (singular) in 1 John 3:23-24. Not to be confused with your "works based" false gospel which is disobedience to the commandment and is also unbelief. (2 Corinthians 4:3,4) You refuse to obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. (Romans 10:16)

A disobedient faith never saved anyone!

Your false gospel of works salvation is not obedience and a spurious faith never saved anyone! Only the Lord can open your eyes to the truth just as he opened my eyes to the truth several years ago.

 

[mailmandan]

This is a misrepresentation of what I believe Dan.
Salvation by works is not the gospel of Jesus Christ

That is the very idea the Jews had in Romans chapter 4
Paul is trying to show them they cannot work the law of Moses and be saved by meritorious works.
No Grace no salvation!

Jesus' gospel teaches we are saved by Gods grace and our faith.
Faith rightly defined includes obedience to Gods commandments.

Works of obedience or another way of saying it, Acts of faith are required by God to receive His grace.

As proven already faith is an act of obedience to Gods commandment, 1John 3:23-24.

So, the only way Dan can be correct that no obedient works are involved in salvation is to remove faith from salvation!

The works do not merit anything.
Gods grace is CONDITIONAL upon our obedience to Jesus' gospel.


These works that are required to recieve Gods grace are not works of man, not works of merit.
They are works of God that we must work go recieve Gods grace.

All these works in Jesus' gospel are ACTS OF FAITH
They all are doing Gods will by faith.

Faith is an act not mental assent.

Faith that saves is a faith that obeys God.

Dan teaches an unbiblical faith that saves without working the commandments of God.
Faith apart from works is a disobedient faith.

Dan teaches his gospel has no works that save us.
That is impossible!
Without works we could not be saved.
By works that save I ONLY mean the works of God NEVER the works of man.

John 17:4,
- I have glorified You on the earth I have finished the  work which You have given Me to do

No one is saved by there own works, Ephesians 2:8-9

Salvation comes by the works of God.
His grace, mercy, salvation comes through His works.

Dan is wrong.
I do not teach man works His own works to be saved.

I teach Salvation is obtained through Grace and faith.
That faith is not alone, James 2:24
Saving faith is obedience to Jesus' commandments in His gospel.
Faith Biblical: belief in Jesus and obedience to Jesus' gospel.
Jesus' gospel includes commandments, therefore we must work these commandments.
There is no earning salvation by obeying Gods commandments.

If so then obeying the commandment to believe in Jesus, 1John 3:23-24 is meriting our salvation.
I Know Dan will not admit to this! But he will contradict himself and say obeying other commandments like baptism is meriting salvation.


To show the ridiculousness of Dan's reasoning,
Dan, we must obey the commandment to believe in Jesus, 1John 3:23-24.

You know that doing the commandments are works

This is why you condemn the working, obeying of the commandment to be baptized as a requirement to be saved.

Here is the contradiction in Dan's faith only and no works gospel.

He says you must obey the commandment to believe in Jesus, 1John 3:23-24.
Then says no works, no keeping commandments are allowed in salvation.

Look at these two commandments in Jesus' gospel.

Dan's false gospel will approve of one and condemn the other.

Dan will teach faith is not a work even though it is a commandment in Jesus' gospel
But then contradict himself and say baptism which is also a commandment in Jesus gospel is a work.

They are both commandments that must be obeyed!

1John 3:23-24,
- and this is Gods commandment that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ

Acts 10:48,
- And Peter commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord

Dan will claim one work of obedience is not meriting salvation.
Then claim the other work of obedience is meriting salvation.

This is how Dan falsely accuses me of salvation by works

What Dan will NEVER admit is his gospel has a work to be saved
Faith is a work because it is commanded that we obey it just like the commandment to be baptized

Dan's gospel, faith must be obeyed
Baptism can be disobeyed and be saved.

What confusion!

Dan you teach a gospel of salvation through disobedience to Jesus' gospel commandments.

Then when someone like myself teaches the true gospel, that one must obey all of Jesus' steps of salvation,
Believe, 1John 3:23-24,
Repent, Acts 17:30-31,
Confess Christ, Romans 10:9-10,
Baptism, Acts 2:38

We are teaching one merits their salvation through works!

You better get the work of faith out of your gospel Dan otherwise you have contradicted your own teaching of salvation apart from works!

John 6:28-29

More of the same longwinded nonsense. You have been thoroughly indoctrinated into church of Christ theology and are unteachable. I at one time had temporarily attended the so-called church of Christ several years ago, so I understand how they try to "shoehorn" works "into" salvation through faith. You are fooling no one on this site except for the already fooled. Let me know when you are ready to repent (change your mind) and believe the gospel (by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-SUFFICIENT means of your salvation. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

Your false gospel is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics. Mere mental assent belief conjoined with works (apart from changing your mind and believing the gospel) along with mere moral self-reformation (apart from regeneration) along with lip service confession (not by the Holy Spirit - 1 Corinthians 12:3) and being dunked in H20 saves no one. Your 4-step plan of salvation is erroneous and culminates in salvation by works. Let me know when you are ready to believe the true gospel. Until then, I will continue to pray for you.

1 Corinthians 1:18 - For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

 

[St. SteVen]

To the contrary. Romans 4:6 - just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. Your argument is with God, not me.

Agree.
Even to those who refuse to work have righteousness imputed through faith.

Romans 4:4-5 New English Translation
Now to the one who works, his pay is not credited due to grace but due to obligation.[a]
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous,[b]
his faith is credited as righteousness.

 

[Titus]

Let me know when you are ready to repent (change your mind) and believe the gospel (by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-SUFFICIENT means of your salvation. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

I am already a believer. I don't believe parts of the gospel and deny other teachings in the gospel as you do Dan.
You only believe 1Corinthians 15:1-4.
But you have no faith in the gospel Christ preached to His disciples
Mark 16:15-16,
- Go ye into all the world and preach the GOSPEL to every creature
he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be danmed.

I am the true believer in the gospel of Jesus Christ.
You believe in a man made theology from europeans during the protestant period.

Next,
Paul used Abraham as the example that the law of Moses cannot save the Jews in Romans 4,
For the very reason that Abraham was saved by an obedient faith BEFORE there was even a law known as the Mosaical law. You are a bad Bible student and this is why you completely missed the point why Paul used Abraham in Romans chapter 4.

Abraham was BEFORE the law of Moses, so your argument does not hold water. Plus, in Romans 4:3, Paul simply said Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. No works included, so ALL works apply.

Yes exactly! He was BEFORE the law of Moses. What better example to Prove to the Jews that the law of Moses cannot save. You totally missed Paul's point Dan.

Titus does not agree with Paul because Paul does not limit works simply to specific works of the law but includes works in general.

Dan! The context in Romans is Paul trying to get the law of Moses out of the Jews head!!!!
What you said above shows your lack of understanding of the context in Romans and a major lack of understanding in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

You claim Paul condemns ALL works in Romans 4.
Not just the works of the law of Moses.

Dan, if Paul condemns ALL works in general as you claim.

THEN THERE IS NO LAW WE MUST FOLLOW TO BE SAVED PERIOD!

No Law of Christ!
Now new testament will of Jesus!

If you are correct,
Then you are a believer in unconditional election!
Did you just recently convert to John Calvin's teaching?

If no new testament commandments must be obeyed which is LAW DAN!!!
Then Gods grace is not conditional but unconditional just as the calvinist's teach!

You are not making sense Dan.
You teach we must obey a law!
To be saved you teach we must obey the commandment to believe in Jesus!

As I've already taught, your gospel contradicts itself!
This is why your faith alone salvation and no obedience to Jesus' law is a salvation by disobedience!!!

Dan you do not understand that for there to be NO LAW, no works in that law required to be saved,
YOU MUST REMOVE THE LAW TO BELIEVE IN JESUS FROM YOUR CONTRADICTORY GOSPEL.

You are not making sense when you said no law in general is what Paul teaches regarding how one is saved.

Then there is no law to obey to be saved according to Dan!

Titus does not agree with Paul because Paul does not limit works simply to specific works of the law but includes works in general

All works in general Dan eliminates the old law of Moses, AND the new testament law of Christ.

So Dan is ignorantly teaching we do not have to obey Christ's new law to be saved,
1John 3:23-24,
- and this is Gods commandment.....

Commandments are from a law.
The Law giver is God. This is 1John 3:23-24, therefore this is a commandment in the new law of Christ

1John 3:23-24,
- And this is GODS COMMANDMENT....

Dan does not believe any law must be worked/obeyed to be saved!
Commandments are Gods law Dan.

1John 3:23-24,
- And this is Gods commandment that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ...

Dan says we must believe have faith in Jesus to be saved.
Then claims we do not work any law any commandments to be saved.
Dan is another person who is lost, confused, does not understand the gospel of Jesus Christ,
James 1:8,
- a double minded man is unstable in all his ways

Dan has no understanding of Romans chapter 4. He follows blind men and their blind interpretations
2Peter 3:16,
- as also in all his(Paul) epistles speaking in them of these things in which are some things hard to be understood which they that are unlearned and unstable twist as they do also the other scriptures unto their own destruction

Dan's belief that Paul teaches no works, not of the law of Moses not of the law of Christ play no part in our justification/salvation is openly showing his misunderstanding and ignorance of the Scriptures.

What part of "without works" don't you understand? Also, if other works are included in being accounted as righteous (as you erroneously teach) then why did Paul forget to mention them in Romans 4:2-6?

Because Dan Paul's audience in Romans chapter 4 were not ignorant of the old testament as you are.
They understood that Paul was teaching BIBLICAL FAITH RIGHTLY DEFINED when he used Abraham as the example as saved by faith and not works of the law of Moses.

The religion of faith apart from good works saves NEVER even occurred to the Jews in Romans chapter 4. There never was such a faith that existed in the old testament up until our lifetimes!!!!

Your definition of saving faith is unbiblical modern day error.

The Jews knew in Romans 4 when Paul told them Abraham was saved by faith and not works of the Mosaical law, what true faith was.

They understood Abraham's faith would not be only belief but obedience to Gods commandments.
Which is exactly the kind of faith God justified Abraham In Genesis 15:6.

Your religion has folks doing no good works before they are saved.

As you ignore about Abrahams faith over and over and over again!!!
The Bible teaches Abraham already did good works when God counted Abraham's faith as righteousness in Genesis 15:6.


You deny the Bible when you claim Abraham had a workless faith when God said he was righteous.

Biblical facts about Abraham's faith:

In Genesis 12 up to Genesis chapter 15.
Abraham was doing, obeying, working the law of God!

Genesis 12 Abraham did the works God told him to do.

Genesis 15:6 God knew Abraham's faith was not alone apart from works but in reality Abraham had been obeying Gods commands, working obedience.

THAT IS BIBLICAL FAITH THAT SAVES, JUSTIFIES, ACCOUNTS RIGHTEOUSNESS

The faith Dan claims Abraham had in Romans 4:6 is fictitious man made fables!
2Timothy 4:4,
- and they shall turn away their ears from the truth and shall be turned unto fables


Dan's definition of saving faith: Belief apart from ALL works

Does not exist in the Bible.

Faith without works cannot be called faith!
Faith without works is only defined by the Scriptures as dead
Dan wants us to believe we can be saved by a dead faith!
A dead faith is worse than no faith at all
Faith must work
Faith must produce
It must be viable
Verbal faith is not enough
Mental faith is insufficient
Saving faith inspires action.
The action to obey the commandments in Jesus' new testament gospel, 1John 3:23-24.

James 2:26,
- For as the body without the spirit is  dead so faith without works is dead also.

 

[Titus]

Agree.
Even to those who refuse to work have righteousness imputed through faith

Amen, Amen, Amen!!!!

Perfect summation of Dan's religion!

You admit with fervor that no law keeping no obedience to God is required in your perverted gospel to be saved. Thankyou for stating it so plainly.
I love folks who make it plain!

You and Dan both teach a gospel of belief only and no obedience to God
Salvation through disobedience is your perverted gospel.

Romans 4:4-5 New English Translation
Now to the one who works, his pay is not credited due to grace but due to obligation.[a]
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous,[b]
his faith is credited as righteousness.

Paul is specifically teaching the works in the law of Moses.
Paul is not teaching about the works in the law of Christ, new will and testament.

You and Dan both do not understand Romans.
You have no understanding of the context.

Romans 4:2, the works of the law of Moses old testament
- for if Abraham were justified by works he hath whereof to glory but not before God

James 2:20-21,23
- but wilt thou know O vain man that faith without works is dead
- was not Abraham our father justified by works when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar
- and the scripture was fulfilled which saith Abraham believed God and it was imputed unto him for righteousness and he was called the friend of God
- ye see then how that by works a man  is justified and not by faith alone
James here is speaking of the works in the new law of Christ, 1John 3:23-24

 

[St. SteVen]

Amen, Amen, Amen!!!!

Perfect summation of Dan's religion!

You admit with fervor that no law keeping no obedience to God is required in your perverted gospel to be saved. Thankyou for stating it so plainly.
I love folks who make it plain!

You and Dan both teach a gospel of belief only and no obedience to God
Salvation through disobedience is your perverted gospel.

What a terrible conclusion to make about us.

You and Dan both do not understand Romans.
You have no understanding of the context.

Seems that those who failed to pass their kindergarten class never learned to play nice with others. - LOL
Goodbye.

 

[Titus]

What a terrible conclusion to make about us.

Seems that those who failed to pass their kindergarten class never learned to play nice with others. - LOL
Goodbye.

Agree.
Even to those who refuse to work have righteousness imputed through faith

If you were an honest person you would have agreed.
You said it Sir, I just repeated your own creed.

Quote from St. SteVen: "Even to those who refuse to work(obey) have righteousness imputed through faith" (dead faith void of works)

You realize you made a big mistake coming out and saying what your church really teaches.
Now you are trying to attack my character as if I said something untruthful about you and Dan's false gospel of salvation through faith alone and no obedient works.

 

[Titus]

You posted yourself that faith was a condition. I simply pointed out that OBEDIENCE TO GOD IS PART OF NT FAITH meaning salvation is impossible apart from obedience to God's will for disobedience / sin / unrighteousness saves no one.

Amen, Amen, Amen!
This is Biblical faith rightly defined.
Faith with zero obedient works is not faith at all.

 

[Patrick1966]

So you're accusing God of extortion? I would be careful.

 

[Patrick1966]

Amen, Amen, Amen!!!!

Perfect summation of Dan's religion!

You admit with fervor that no law keeping no obedience to God is required in your perverted gospel to be saved. Thankyou for stating it so plainly.
I love folks who make it plain!

You and Dan both teach a gospel of belief only and no obedience to God
Salvation through disobedience is your perverted gospel.


Paul is specifically teaching the works in the law of Moses.
Paul is not teaching about the works in the law of Christ, new will and testament.

You and Dan both do not understand Romans.
You have no understanding of the context.

Romans 4:2, the works of the law of Moses old testament
- for if Abraham were justified by works he hath whereof to glory but not before God

James 2:20-21,23
- but wilt thou know O vain man that faith without works is dead
- was not Abraham our father justified by works when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar
- and the scripture was fulfilled which saith Abraham believed God and it was imputed unto him for righteousness and he was called the friend of God
- ye see then how that by works a man  is justified and not by faith alone
James here is speaking of the works in the new law of Christ, 1John 3:23-24