Is the Good News actual news? - No longer news to most

[Aunty Jane]

As I implied earlier, it is your paradigm of how God operates that mimics that of the fallen parent.

Only in your own estimations. There are ways to serve our Sovereign Lord without being his "slaves". It was considered a privilege in ancient times to serve the King.

Are you not familiar with the account Jesus tells of the wedding feast of the lamb where he (the bridegroom) puts on an apron to serve us? What do you assume he might be trying to convey to us in this account?

He is giving an example to humans who think that they are better than their fellow humans.....as he also demonstrated, if the son of God can wash the feet of his disciples...they can wash the feet of one another......
Jesus is a "servant" of his Father.....(Acts 4:27)

When I ask you to tell me of Jehovah you claim to be a witness of you stay zipped. Ever wonder why you can't give a straight and clear answer?

I wasn't aware that you asked a straight or clear question....

 

[St. SteVen]

The "free gift" is like "free will"......it was never really "free" to begin with.

--- PARODY ---

Person #1: Receive the free gift of eternal life.
Person #2: No thanks.
Person #1: I said it was free.
Person #2: There must be some strings attached.
Person #1: Well, of course.
Person #2: It's not a free gift then, right?
Person #1: You had better take it... or else!
Person #2: Say what?
Person #1: Otherwise you will be incinerated!
Person #2: What sort of free gift is that?

Indeed.

/

 

[Aunty Jane]

--- PARODY ---

Person #1: Receive the free gift of eternal life.
Person #2: No thanks.
Person #1: I said it was free.
Person #2: There must be some strings attached.
Person #1: Well, of course.
Person #2: It's not a free gift then, right?
Person #1: You had better take it... or else!
Person #2: Say what?
Person #1: Otherwise you will be incinerated!
Person #2: What sort of free gift is that?

I think we have done this parody before, so it prompted me to do some additional research on the word “free”.
Some interesting information was forthcoming.....in English “free” means “at no cost”....and in Greek it is the same, but the same word is used for “free” as it is for “gift” so the word “free” meaning “at no cost” means just that....it costs you nothing to receive it, but has wonderful benefits if it is used in accordance with the directions given with it....much like a gift we might give someone that had some instructions as to its use. If not used in accordance with the directions, harm could result....a “cost” that did not need to be incurred.

Same with “free will”...it came with instructions and harm could result if the instructions were not followed.

We are living in a world handed over to the devil (Luke 4:6-7) because the first humans chose him as their ruler....(1 John 5:19) So we can be servants of either God or the devil, depending on how well we follow “the manufacturer’s instructions”.

Rom 6:16...
“Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey, either of sin leading to death or of obedience leading to righteousness?”

We become the slaves of the one we obey....either in a good way or a bad one.
Every heinous act carried out by humans, past and present, is an abuse of their free will.

So your parody shows a limited understanding of the word “free”.....no gift from God was ever without instructions as to its use. Warnings were always given if it was misused. The “freedom” was in the choice, and the consequence was clearly stated.
Even the precious gift of Christ’s sacrifice came with provisos.....it only applied to those who accepted it and lived in accord with God’s instructions......it will not be wasted on those who have no room in their lives for God, his son or his laws.

1 Peter 4:17-18...
“For it is the appointed time for the judgment to start with the house of God. Now if it starts first with us, what will the outcome be for those who are not obedient to the good news of God? 18 “And if the righteous man is being saved with difficulty, what will happen to the ungodly man and the sinner?”

Food for thought....

 

[St. SteVen]

So your parody shows a limited understanding of the word “free”.....no gift from God was ever without instructions as to its use. Warnings were always given if it was misused. The “freedom” was in the choice, and the consequence was clearly stated.
Even the precious gift of Christ’s sacrifice came with provisos.....it only applied to those who accepted it and lived in accord with God’s instructions......it will not be wasted on those who have no room in their lives for God, his son or his laws.

My parody actually agrees with you.
And vice versa.

The parody is intended to address the issue of evangelists calling salvation a free gift.
But as you indicated, it simply isn't. And I agree.

--- PARODY ---

Person #1: Receive the free gift of eternal life.
Person #2: No thanks.
Person #1: I said it was free.
Person #2: There must be some strings attached.
Person #1: Well, of course.
Person #2: It's not a free gift then, right?
Person #1: You had better take it... or else!
Person #2: Say what?
Person #1: Otherwise you will be incinerated!
Person #2: What sort of free gift is that?

Indeed.

/

 

[Aunty Jane]

My parody actually agrees with you.
And vice versa.

The parody is intended to address the issue of evangelists calling salvation a free gift.
But as you indicated, it simply isn't. And I agree.

Your parody I guess would involve the majority who identify as "Christians".....most especially the OSAS members. Once they entertain the idea of salvation, they think that it cannot be lost.....Peter said otherwise...(2 Pet 2:20-22)

Unless you live the faith every day a a natural part of your "new personality", (and not just talk about it) the gift is put on a shelf somewhere and dusted off perhaps twice a year or as some sort of duty performed once a week.

If its not a living faith shared by others with whom you have regular contact, (Heb 10:24-25).....its not what Christ taught at all.

 

[St. SteVen]

Unless you live the faith every day a a natural part of your "new personality", (and not just talk about it) the gift is put on a shelf somewhere and dusted off perhaps twice a year or as some sort of duty performed once a week.

Salvation by works?
No work = No salvation ???
Wasn't Christ's work sufficient for salvation?

/

 

[Aunty Jane]

Salvation by works?
No work = No salvation ???
Wasn't Christ's work sufficient for salvation?

Salvation can never be by works alone…..nor by faith alone, according to James….( one of my favorite writers)

James 1:2-8….
“Indeed, just as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
”Consider it all joy, my brothers, when you meet with various trials, 3 knowing as you do that this tested quality of your faith produces endurance. 4 But let endurance complete its work, so that you may be complete and sound in all respects, not lacking in anything.

5 So if any one of you is lacking in wisdom, let him keep asking God, for he gives generously to all and without reproaching, and it will be given him. 6 But let him keep asking in faith, not doubting at all, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven by the wind and blown about. 7 In fact, that man should not expect to receive anything from Jehovah; 8 he is an indecisive man, unsteady in all his ways”. . . . .

12-15…”Happy is the man who keeps on enduring trial, because on becoming approved he will receive the crown of life, which Jehovah promised to those who continue loving Him. 13 When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried, nor does he himself try anyone. 14 But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn sin, when it has been carried out, brings forth death.” . . . .

22-25…”However, become doers of the word and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves with false reasoning. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, this one is like a man looking at his own face in a mirror. 24 For he looks at himself, and he goes away and immediately forgets what sort of person he is. 25 But the one who peers into the perfect law that belongs to freedom and continues in it has become, not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work; and he will be happy in what he does.”

James 2:14…”Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but he does not have works?That faith cannot save him, can it? . . . .

17-20, 26….“So, too, faith by itself, without works, is dead.

18 Nevertheless, someone will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder. 20 But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith without works is useless? . . . .

26…”Indeed, just as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.”

We can’t earn salvation, but we can do all we can to qualify for it. Faith is proven by works….the works are the result of faith….they go hand in hand. You cannot have one without the other.

What do you perceive “works” to be?

 

[St. SteVen]

Salvation can never be by works alone…..nor by faith alone, according to James….( one of my favorite writers)

Agree.
James barely made the cut for inclusion in the NT canon. (as I recall)

We can’t earn salvation, but we can do all we can to qualify for it. Faith is proven by works….the works are the result of faith….they go hand in hand. You cannot have one without the other.

There's a fine line between "earning" and "qualifying".
I agree that faith is PROVEN by works, however. The result.

However, we no plenty who have "faith" but little to no "works".
How are such things measured.

I prefer to look for the fruit of the Spirit. (singular)
That is more obvious and measurable.

What do you perceive “works” to be?

As stated above. (for the most part)

The evidence of faith. (works as defined in James)

/

 

[O'Darby]

The OSAS vs. non-OSAS debate is not about faith vs. works. It's simply about what "faith" means. Does faith occur at a moment in time (OSAS) or is faith an ongoing commitment (non-OSAS)? Those who hold the non-OSAS position do not "add" works to faith. Their equation is not FAITH + WORKS = SALVATION. Faith, as James says, is shown by works. Faith is a continuing walk. That's why I like the Orthodox position: There is no simple definition, but rather God will tell you at the end whether you had faith.

 

[St. SteVen]

The OSAS vs. non-OSAS debate is not about faith vs. works. It's simply about what "faith" means. Does faith occur at a moment in time (OSAS) or is faith an ongoing commitment (non-OSAS)? Those who hold the non-OSAS position do not "add" works to faith. Their equation is not FAITH + WORKS = SALVATION. Faith, as James says, is shown by works. Faith is a continuing walk. That's why I like the Orthodox position: There is no simple definition, but rather God will tell you at the end whether you had faith.

Thanks. Interesting to compare notes on this.

I think the non-OSAS position DOES add works to faith.
Faith + no works = no salvation
How can that NOT be salvation by works? No works = No salvation.

As I stated earlier, the issue is between Eternal Security and Eternal Insecurity.
Eternal Security = have it now
Eternal Insecurity = wait and see

I prefer to know now. (as much as we can)
I'm secure in my position with God.

I suppose non-OSAS is more like "have it now" but "risk losing it."
Conditional salvation = faith + works

In my view, the works are a confirmation of salvation.
EVIDENCE of the inner workings of God in our lives.
The works CONFIRM a salvation that is OSAS.

There are arguments on both sides, obviously.
But I'm not ready to trade in my eternal security for eternal insecurity.

My OSAS statement:
We cannot by an act of our own will undo what only God could do in the first place.
Even in the case of reprobation, it is God's choice NOT ours. The Good Shepherd does this
for the purpose of bringing us BACK to himself. He NEVER lets us go.
Once Saved Always Saved. (OSAS)

/

 

[O'Darby]

Thanks. Interesting to compare notes on this.

I think the non-OSAS position DOES add works to faith.
Faith + no works = no salvation
How can that NOT be salvation by works? No works = No salvation.

As I stated earlier, the issue is between Eternal Security and Eternal Insecurity.
Eternal Security = have it now
Eternal Insecurity = wait and see

I prefer to know now. (as much as we can)
I'm secure in my position with God.

I suppose non-OSAS is more like "have it now" but "risk losing it."
Conditional salvation = faith + works

In my view, the works are a confirmation of salvation.
EVIDENCE of the inner workings of God in our lives.
The works CONFIRM a salvation that is OSAS.

There are arguments on both sides, obviously.
But I'm not ready to trade in my eternal security for eternal insecurity.

My OSAS statement:
We cannot by an act of our own will undo what only God could do in the first place.
Even in the case of reprobation, it is God's choice NOT ours. The Good Shepherd does this
for the purpose of bringing us BACK to himself. He NEVER lets us go.
Once Saved Always Saved. (OSAS)

/

The difference is in focus. Non-OSAS, as I see it, is not FAITH + WORKS. It's simply CONTINUING FAITH. Faith is a path, not a moment in time. What that continuing faith might look like - how it might manifest itself - will vary from individual to individual. I think it's a matter of heart and mind, not some quantum of good works.

As I've said, I spent my formative years in an OSAS culture. I thought it was what all Christians believed. But as I studied, the overall theme of the NT seemed to me to be distinctly non-OSAS. I began to wonder how anyone could read the NT and believe OSAS. Then I discovered that the oldest branches of Christendom, Orthodox and Catholic (along with some Protestants), in fact don't believe it.

Whether one holds an OSAS or non-OSAS positon should make no difference to anyone's Christian walk. If there is a downside to either positon, it seems to me the OSAS message, if not true, could mislead some people into thinking they were saved at a moment in time and no longer had to be particularly concerned about their Christian walk.

In some ways, OSAS strikes me as intuitively unlikely as Calvinism. Either certainly could be true, but both strike me as intutively unlikeky.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The term "good news" is defined by the context. For instance, if our sons have gone off to make war, the mothers and fathers want to know things like "How is the war going? Are we winning? Is my son alive?" The news from the front lines might be good or bad. If we are being defeated by the enemy and our sons are dying, that is bad news. But if we are defeating the enemy and our sons are alive, that is good news.

In order to understand the Gospel, one must first come to grips with Solomon's challenge -- ALL IS VANITY. According to Solomon death robs us of meaning and purpose. What difference does it make whether I am wise or foolish? Both the wise man and the fool end up dead. What difference does it make if I work hard all my life if I must die and leave the produce of all my hard work to my fool son?

Doesn't our death render our life empty, meaningless and futile? In other words, while it is true that each life is a unique and valuable experience, we die no matter what we do.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ, which announces that death will be defeated, is good news to those who understand Solomon. Death itself doesn't render life meaningless, but death as a common experience among both the wise and the foolish highlights the uselessness and ineffectiveness of life. No matter what we do, we all end up dead. Whether it’s a trivial gesture or a grand endeavor, recognizing futility prompts us to reflect on the value and significance of our actions.

Good news: death can no longer render your life meaningless if you place your faith and trust in Jesus.

 

[St. SteVen]

Whether one holds an OSAS or non-OSAS positon should make no difference to anyone's Christian walk. If there is a downside to either positon, it seems to me the OSAS message, if not true, could mislead some people into thinking they were saved at a moment in time and no longer had to be particularly concerned about their Christian walk.

Agree.
And that is the major complaint against OSAS.
Even used as an accusation against OSAS fans. They they are promoting a sin free-for-all. (sigh)

/

 

[O'Darby]

Agree.
And that is the major complaint against OSAS.
Even used as an accusation against OSAS fans. They they are promoting a sin free-for-all. (sigh)

/

And, of course, when I was a Southern Baptist, we would then say "If your post-conversion walk shows no fruit, then your conversion wasn't real in the first place." And on it goes!