Is the Great Commission for today?

[Jordan]

(RichardBurger;67001)
(crooner;66998)
RichardRead Joseph Prince's new book Destined to Reign You will love it. All about grace being preached by Paul. He talks of the problem of mixing two covenants of old and new. A very good read for those that want to understand grace more.
Most religious people will never see that there was and old and then a new. To them it is all the same.I have been teaching, for years, that mixing the two only leads to a false gospel, a gospel that Satan loves to teach. A gospel that leads to Hell.Most all "religious" people are seeking to produce good religious works in their lives to earn salvation. This is a never-ending battle that is filled only with frustration and defeat. Until they accept the true gospel of Jesus Christ, they will never be able to rest in His finished work on the cross and consequently will never be able to experience the liberty of new life in Christ.True liberty can come only in Christ. Only when we realize that we are SECURE in Him can we cease from our own works and rest in His work on the cross. This gives us a position of complete peace with God.Heb 3:11-12 (NKJ)11 So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest.' "12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of ""unbelief"" in departing from the living God;But most religious people seem to feel secure in their religious theological choices. They do not see that they need what Jesus did on the cross because, in their religions they think they are good people. People that think they are good never see themselves as sinful and in need of what God did on the cross.RichardIt is the same message. There is nothing new in the New Testament that isn't in the Old Testament. Old Testament is New Testament concealed, and New Testament is Old Testament revealed.

 

[RichardBurger]

(Jordan;67002)
It is the same message. There is nothing new in the New Testament that isn't in the Old Testament. Old Testament is New Testament concealed, and New Testament is Old Testament revealed.
Obviouisly I disagree with you.Richard

 

[winsome]

(RichardBurger;67001)
Most all "religious" people are seeking to produce good religious works in their lives to earn salvation. This is a never-ending battle that is filled only with frustration and defeat. Until they accept the true gospel of Jesus Christ, they will never be able to rest in His finished work on the cross and consequently will never be able to experience the liberty of new life in Christ.But most religious people seem to feel secure in their religious theological choices. They do not see that they need what Jesus did on the cross because, in their religions they think they are good people. People that think they are good never see themselves as sinful and in need of what God did on the cross.Richard
Both of these statements are nonesense. I can't think of any denomination that believes in salvation by works, or that they do not need what Jesus did on the cross.

 

[winsome]

(RichardBurger;66999)
Winsome, you posted: "What did Peter say in Acts 2:38 to the assembled Jews “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit. For the promise is made to you and to your children and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call.” Same message."Sorry Winsome but we are too far apart on our understanding of the scripturtes to be able to discuss anything.You take what Peter said in Acts 2:38 as a formula for salvation. You take what he wrote completely out of context and say "see, this is what Peter says to us.When a person puts it back in the context of what Peter wrote he/she see that what Peter said was a direct answer to a question the Jews, who had Jesus crucified, asked, "what must we do?"If you don't study the whole context you will never be able to see the truth.Richard
Of course it was an answer to the question "what must we do" and if you look at the context you will see that Peter was addressing "devout Jews from every nation under heaven"and "the whole house of Israel" (Acts 2:5&36). It was about repentance, baptism and salvation:He testified with many other arguments, and was exhorting them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” And every day the Lord added to their number those who were being saved.However if you want to bottle out because you can't answer my points and want to preserve your misguided theory then so be it.

 

[crooner]

Boy oh boy!! Galations is the book you legalist need to read. Paul scourned the Galations for mixing law with grace. We are experiencing that righr here in this post.I am finding in almost every church this is happening. People want to try to do what Jesus already has done for us.

 

[Jordan]

(RichardBurger;67005)
(Jordan;67002)
It is the same message. There is nothing new in the New Testament that isn't in the Old Testament. Old Testament is New Testament concealed, and New Testament is Old Testament revealed.
Obviouisly I disagree with you.RichardYes, I knew that a while ago. Tell me, what makes me you convinced that the Old Testament and the New Testament are completely different?

 

[RichardBurger]

(winsome;67007)
Of course it was an answer to the question "what must we do" and if you look at the context you will see that Peter was addressing "devout Jews from every nation under heaven"and "the whole house of Israel" (Acts 2:5&36). It was about repentance, baptism and salvation:He testified with many other arguments, and was exhorting them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” And every day the Lord added to their number those who were being saved.However if you want to bottle out because you can't answer my points and want to preserve your misguided theory then so be it.
Winsome, you just refuse to see the truth. Peter had conviced the Jews that they had crucified their Messiah and they, THE JEWS, asked what they, THE JEWS, could do. Peter told them what they, THE JEWS, who had Jesus crucified could do. To perform the Jewish ritual of water cleansing in the name of Jesus was to show the Jews that they really accepted Jesus as their Messiah. --- It is not a formula for salvation under Grace.I will take your statement "However if you want to bottle out because you can't answer my points and want to preserve your misguided theory then so be it" for what it is worth, NOTHING. Just an attempt to elevate yourself. In your eyes nothing I, or anyone else, says will be an answer to your points. It is a typical ploy used by many on forums. Does it bother me? No, it just shows your immaturity.Richard

 

[RichardBurger]

(Jordan;67035)
Yes, I knew that a while ago. Tell me, what makes me you convinced that the Old Testament and the New Testament are completely different?
Go back to post #15 on this thread. The scriptures given tell of the old being replaced by the new.In order for the new to replace the old, the old had to exist.Jesus did not offer the earthly kingdom (the Kingdom at hand) to the Gentiles. See post #11.Jesus never abolished the Law of Moses. Neither did He teach His disciples to forsake the Law of Moses. ---- But the gospel of grace given to Paul, by Jesus, abolishes the Law of Moses.Matt 23:1-31 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples,2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.NKJV --- You figure it out.Richard

 

[Jordan]

(RichardBurger;67039)
(Jordan;67035)
Yes, I knew that a while ago. Tell me, what makes me you convinced that the Old Testament and the New Testament are completely different?
Go back to post #15 on this thread. The scriptures given tell of the old being replaced by the new.In order for the new to replace the old, the old had to exist.Jesus did not offer the earthly kingdom (the Kingdom at hand) to the Gentiles. See post #11.Jesus never abolished the Law of Moses. Neither did He teach His disciples to forsake the Law of Moses. ---- But the gospel of grace given to Paul, by Jesus, abolishes the Law of Moses.Matt 23:1-31 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples,2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.NKJV --- You figure it out.RichardThat does not at all say that the New Testament replaces the Old Testament. It is saying that the Pharisees and the scribes does not do God's laws, but rather they do and follow the tradition of men as they want everybody to follow men. Give me a break here...

 

[Christina]

correct Jordan its why the Jesus broke Sabbath day laws why the apostles did not wash their hands before eatingthe sadducees and pharisees had turned everything into a religious ritual of men Same thing as today Christ said I come not to change the Law ..but fulfill it.. it was fulfilled in Christ.. also there is a difference between Laws and statues and Ordinances ..the statutes and Ordinances as you know were nailed to the cross... There is not much of anything in the New Testament that isn't in the Old though it maybe it be in type or laying the ground work for the New. In fact a remnant (Judah was left/put in a slumber) to preserve the law. As you have heard me say on number of occasations the O.T is the New concealed the New Testament the Old revealed

 

[RichardBurger]

(winsome;67006)
Both of these statements are nonesense. I can't think of any denomination that believes in salvation by works, or that they do not need what Jesus did on the cross.
Then you are blind. The "social moral gospel' is the gospel taught today. It starts out saying Jesus' death on the cross save us and then puts in the word "but" we must have works to show our faith is not dead.RichardWorks:Richard, old: So, correct me if I am wrong XXXX, but you seem to be saying that faith in what God did on the cross is not enough, that "FAITH IN" the work that Jesus (God) did on the cross is just not enough to save a person. Salvation by God's grace is not free but that a person "MUST" do something to earn his/her salvation?XXXX responded: No, Richard, that is just your distorted view of my position. What Christ did on the cross is enough...absolutely enough... but we **must** respond to what he has done. We are saved by gods grace alone (not faith alone). Our faith is a response to that. Our works are a sign of true faith and not a dead one. We are enabled to have faith and accomplish works only because of Gods grace. There is no diminishment of what Christ accomplished only the point that we must respond to it.Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.********************You start out saying that "what Christ did on the cross is enough" and then say "BUT" we "MUST" respond in works. That is like saying ALL the furniture in the room has been moved out BUT there is a chair in the room. The last parts of the statements contradict the first parts.Sorry XXXX but reading what you wrote I can't see that your salvation is by God's grace since you insist that a person "MUST" do works in order to respond to God's grace. If salvation is by God's grace then why "MUST" a person pay for it in any way? Can't you see that if a person "MUST " respond with works then that person is still under a law and that is not grace. The Jews had to do the works of the law to show their faith. But it became all attempted works and no faith. I see the idea you have expressed as leading the Church to the same condition. The "MUST" or "HAVE TO" is making many go out, and by their own choice and efforts, do good works that are not really what God (the Spirit) is leading them to do. They are being led by their own efforts and will, at the prodding of others, to do good works that they think will show their faith, and that is not God working through them for His purpose. They are works for the man's purpose.If you said we "SHOULD" or we "WANT TO" do good works in response to what Jesus did for us, then I can go along with it just as Paul said in Romans 7 "the things I want to do I don't do." It is the choice of words you use and you can't seem to see it. When you say we "MUST" or "HAVE TO" do works you add our own efforts to God's work of salvation. It negates the words of Hebrews 4:9-10.By the way, God knows whether a person has faith in His Son or not. He knows if it is sincere. A child of God does not have to prove anything to men and they are honest with God admitting their sinful nature. Man's judgment of the children of God cannot, and does not, save or condemn them. (Romans 14:4) But I understand where it all comes from. In just about every book I read, written by religious writers, they use the same words you do, "MUST" and "HAVE TO." See the books by Max Anders and John MacArthur. People love theses book and think the authors are wonderful. But they are books that teach that Christianity is all about moral social living.You said, "We are saved by gods grace alone (not faith alone)." When you add our works it isn't grace alone is it? Yours is a perversion of the word "grace" and is not the truth. John and Paul said that it is our faith that overcomes the world, not our faith and works. (1 John 5:4) (Galatians 3:2-5)If a person feels they "MUST" or "HAVE TO" do good works, then the good works they are doing are not freely given, they are given to help purchase (earn) their salvation since the teaching is that they "MUST" or "HAVE TO" respond with good works. This leads to the following;Most all "religious" people are seeking to produce good works in their lives to earn salvation. This is a never-ending battle that is filled only with frustration and defeat. Until they accept the true gospel of Jesus Christ, they will never be able to rest in His finished work on the cross and consequently will never be able to experience the liberty of new life in Christ. Your statement above contributes to this feeling. ----- This is how I see it and your contradictory statement hasn't changed my mind.

 

[Christina]

I'll have to go along with Richard on this one Our Works have nothing to do with Salvation we are saved by Grace... period... Our Works are our clothes/garment/coverings in the spirit/heaven you are saved by Grace and alone and you can stand naked before God being saved or you can wear the clothes/coverings of your works. Clothes are the reward for your works. You are not any more saved by your clothes (works) However it please's God when we are clothed/covered by our works but its one's choice whether or not you stand before God naked or clothed

 

[Jordan]

(Christina;67047)
I'll have to go along with Richard on this one Our Works have nothing to do with Salvation we are saved by Grace... period... Our Works are our clothes/garment/coverings in the spirit/heaven you are saved by Grace and alone and you can stand naked before God being saved or you can wear the clothes/coverings of your works. Clothes are the reward for your works. You are not any more saved by your clothes (works) However it please's God when we are clothed/covered by our works but its one's choice whether or not you stand before God naked or clothed
I so agree with Christina.

Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

 

[winsome]

(RichardBurger;67044)
Then you are blind. The "social moral gospel' is the gospel taught today. It starts out saying Jesus' death on the cross save us and then puts in the word "but" we must have works to show our faith is not dead.Richard
I don't know who is teaching this "social moral gospel". I have only heard that we are saved by grace through faith. And any gospel that start out saying Jesus death on the cross saves us is off to a false start so I suspect you are setting up a straw man here.For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God (Eph 2:8)

 

[RichardBurger]

(Jordan;67041)
That does not at all say that the New Testament replaces the Old Testament. It is saying that the Pharisees and the scribes does not do God's laws, but rather they do and follow the tradition of men as they want everybody to follow men. Give me a break here...
Where do you get this idea, that I said the bible new testament replaced the bible old testament?"The old testament prophesied about the coming of Jesus. The first 4 books of the new testament is a record of how Jesus fulfilled all that was written about Him in the O.T.The book of acts is a transistional book explaining the change from the gospel of the kingdom at hand, which included the law, to the gospel of grace that was given to Paul.But I am sure you will disagree.Richard

 

[RichardBurger]

These three verses of scripture were referenced in one of my posts. No one has offered any comment as to what they mean on this thread. It is as if they were not even posted.Matt 10:5-7 (NKJ)5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.6 "But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.7 "And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'Matt 15:23-24 (NKJ)23 But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, "Send her away, for she cries out after us."24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."Rom 15:8 (NKJ)8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:To those that say they will only believe what Jesus said then they have to admit that Jesus did not come with a message for the Gentiles and that Paul was correct in what he said, that Jesus was a minister to the Jews. He did not say "and to the Gentiles. If He came for the Gentiles too then Jesus was not correct in Matt 10:5-7 and Matt 15:23-24.You can't just stick your head in the sand and say theses scriptures do not exist because they are not compatible with your theology.Richard

 

[RichardBurger]

(winsome;67063)
I don't know who is teaching this "social moral gospel". I have only heard that we are saved by grace through faith. And any gospel that start out saying Jesus death on the cross saves us is off to a false start so I suspect you are setting up a straw man here.For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God (Eph 2:8)
Did I mis-understand you? Are you saying that Jesus' death on the cross does not save us?If you don't believe the "social moral gospel" exists then how do you explain the many, many threads about faith plus works on this and other forums?

 

[winsome]

redeems[/i] us.In him we have redemption by his blood (Eph 1:7). If Christ's death on the cross saved us then there would be no need to repent; eveyone in the world would be saved irrespective of whether they had faith in Jesus or not.[QUOTE="RichardBurger;67083]If you don't believe the "social moral gospel" exists then how do you explain the many' date=' many threads about faith plus works on this and other forums?[/QUOTE']Because you post on other forums?

 

[Jordan]

[/b].Jesus did not offer the earthly kingdom (the Kingdom at hand) to the Gentiles. See post #11.Jesus never abolished the Law of Moses. Neither did He teach His disciples to forsake the Law of Moses. ---- But the gospel of grace given to Paul, by Jesus, abolishes the Law of Moses.Matt 23:1-31 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples,2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.NKJV --- You figure it out.Richard

 

[RichardBurger]

(Jordan;67086)
This quote of yours I'm going to post and I will highlight it for you to see.
I was talking about the gospel. The Old gospel of "the kingdom at hand" (which included the Law of Moses) was replaced by the gospel of God's grace.But I see that you are not going to believe it.G. THE OLD REPLACED BY THE NEW: (COVENANTS, for those that are slow).2 Cor 3:6-18 (NKJ)6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the """new covenant,""" not of the letter (Law) but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?9 For if the ministry of condemnation (the Law) had glory, the ministry of righteousness (grace) exceeds much more in glory.10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels.11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech--13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away.14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as ""by"" the Spirit of the Lord.If the gospel has never changed then what are the above verses talking about?Richard