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Is the Holy Spirit to be Worshipped?

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Foreigner, Mar 29, 2011.

  1. Foreigner

    Foreigner New Member

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    Do you really need a scripture stating that Jesus is God and so pray to Him? Really?

    When the apostles did not fast and the pharisees asked why, Jesus said it was because they were with the bridegroom.

    You are implying that after Jesus left, they apostles and other would then fast to Jesus....but not pray to him?
     
  2. Butch5

    Butch5 Butch5

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    Fast to Jesus??? I'm asking for Scripture, but your giving me any. I must therefore conclude that you are inferring it. Jesus is God but He is not the Father. Jesus told us to pray to the Father, He did not say pray to me. Again, what dose "God" mean to you? I believe this is where the confusion is coming from.
     
  3. Foreigner

    Foreigner New Member

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    Mark 2: 18-20.

    There is no confusion. It is a simple question.

    If Jesus is indeed God, why would you not pray to Him?
     
  4. Butch5

    Butch5 Butch5

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    Because He told His disciples to pray to the Father.

    You didn't answer the question, what does "God" mean to you? There is confusion because you didn't' know that I said Jesus was not the Father. They are not the same person.
     
  5. Foreigner

    Foreigner New Member

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    So you are saying emphatically that Jesus is not God...
     
  6. Miss Hepburn

    Miss Hepburn Well-Known Member

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    Yes.


    And welcome Kimberly, you are a breath of fresh air and a welcome addition.
    My ceiling has disappeared 4 times.
    :) Miss Hepburn
     
  7. Butch5

    Butch5 Butch5

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    How many time do I need to repeat this? Jesus "IS" God, Jesus "IS NOT" the Father.

    Please answer the question what does "GOD" mean to you?
     
  8. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    I am not sure why there are all these questions about whether or not we should pray to the separate personages of the Trinity. I thought we had already established that the Christian understanding of God is monotheistic, yet three personages in one. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one God. All three are fully God. It is understandable that this description is not easily explained, but it true.

    I tend to think of God the Father as mind; Jesus as heart; and the Holy Spirit as action - of course it is simplistic, but I really do not expect to fully understand the Nature of God while I am on Earth anyway - there will be plenty of time for that later.

    The reason Jesus never told the disciples to pray to Him is because He was not in His exalted form on Earth and He was sent to be an example of obedience to the Father for us. Also, Jesus really wasn't into claiming deity, while He was on Earth, although He never denied it either. I tend to believe that Jesus was sent to point to the Father and the Holy Spirit was sent to point to Jesus.

    All are God and worthy of our adoration and worship.

    blessings
     
  9. Foreigner

    Foreigner New Member

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    -- And since Jesus IS God, he should be worshipped, praised, and prayed to, correct?
     
  10. Selene

    Selene New Member

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    This is what happens when you try to figure out God with human logic. Jesus is God and He is also the Father. Jesus and the Father are one and the same. Jesus did not separate Himself from the Father when He claimed to be one with the Father. As Christians, we simply accept that God is three persons in ONE. How it is possible is beyond our human logic to understand. We simply accept it through faith.

    In Christ,
    Selene
     
  11. Butch5

    Butch5 Butch5

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    I asked you for Scripture for that. Jesus told His disciples to pray to the Father. He also told the woman at the well, the time was coming when the true worshipers would worship the Father in spirit and in truth. Everything I see says to worship the Father, can you give me Scripture that shows we are to worship Jesus? Look, man, I'm not arguing with you I just don't see the Scripture, do you know of any?

    No Selene, they are not the same person, they are both divine but they're not the same person. The Scriptures clearly show that they are not one person.
     
  12. rjp34652@yahoo.com

    [email protected] Choir Loft

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    Are you saying that there is no such thing as the Holy Trinity? According to your logic, there is the Father only.

    Did Jesus forbid anyone from worshipping him when He walked the earth?
    If so, show us chapter and verse please.

    Is the Holy Spirit just some low angel and not part of the Godhead?
    If so, show us chapter and verse please.

    If Jesus is the Son of God and if Jesus allowed people to worship Him, then He is God.
    If the Holy Spirit IS God, then He is also worthy of worship.

    Otherwise the entire concept of the Holy Trinity is not what has been taught.

    "And Jesus when he was baptized, went up straightway from the water: and lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him; and lo, a voice out of the heavens, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
    Mat 3:16&17

    The above passage is an account of the appearance of all three members of the Trinity manifested in the same place at the same time. Father, Son and Holy Spirit all together.

    Or perhaps Mathew was having an hallucination and all this is junk?

    Is Jesus the Son of God or is He not? Is the Holy Spirit God or is He not?

    If He is, then He is worthy of worship. If He isn't then the whole thing should be tossed out.
     
  13. Foreigner

    Foreigner New Member

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    -- "Both divine?" Does that mean they are both Gods?
    You are saying then that 1.) Christianity has more than one God, and 2.) You should only pray to one of them.
     
  14. Butch5

    Butch5 Butch5

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    You have it backwards, Where did Jesus teach His followers to worship Him or the holy Spirit. We don't assume something and then try to prove it. We must prove it then accept it. Can you show me where Jesus taught His followers to worship Him or the holy Spirit? We have clear teaching form Jesus that we are to worship the Father.

    That's not a necessary conclusion, it may just be the your understanding of the Trinity is not what has been taught.

    What is you point here? I've not denied the Trinity, If denied "Oneness"

    You see here is the problem, your indiscriminate use of the term God. You say Jesus is the Son of God and that He is God. Please define what you mean by "God" . Are you saying that Jesus is the Son of Himself?

    He is God, but again please define God. Are you say that Jesus is the Son of the holy Spirit?

    Again, please show me where Scripture teaches us to worship the holy Spirit. That's all I'm asking.

    There is one God (Deity, divine) think of it as a royal family. There is one royal family of which the Father, Son and holy Spirit are a part. In Genesis "God" said, let us make man in "Our" image. The Hebrew word used for God is "Eloheem" it is plural. I've asked you to present Scripture showing where Christians are taught to worship Jesus, you've not presented any. If you can show me Scripture that teaches that Christians are to worship Jesus and the holy Spirit we can end this discussion, case closed. But, I've not seen any and no one seems to have any.
     
  15. Foreigner

    Foreigner New Member

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    -- There is one God. So is Jesus God? Simple question.
    If He is God then you are telling us not to pray to God.

    Your 'royal family' analogy falls apart when you apply it to God. What you are saying (if you are saying Jesus is God) is that He is a 'lesser' God (the prince who has no real stature other than being part of the royal family). Not one to be prayed to and worshipped.

    Either Jesus is God or He isn't.

    "Eloheem" is plural, you say. That means there are either more than one God, or a single God with three distinct personalities, only one of which is to be worshipped, meaning the other personalities of that God are 'lesser.'

    So which is it?


    .
     
  16. Butch5

    Butch5 Butch5

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    Foreigner, if you would actually answer a few questions this conversation could actually progress.You're interchanging definitions and usage which is confusing. I've asked you numerous times to define "God". Analogies only go so far before they fall apart. There is one deity, one Royalty, this deity or royalty is a title. God is a title given to The Father, the Son, and the holy Spirit. The title means divine. Jesus is not a lesser God, when you look at Scripture we find Jesus and God compared in different aspects. Jesus and God are equal in substance, both equally divine. Consider a human father and son, the father is no more or less human than his son they are both equally human, likewise The Father is no more divine than Jesus, they are equal. However, in personal attributes they are not equal, Jesus was begotten, the Father is unbegotten, Jesus can be seen the Father is invisible, the Father alone has immortality. their personal attributes differ. Then there is Order, they are not the same in order, Jesus said the Father is greater than I. Paul said the head of woman is man and the head of man is Christ and the head of Christ is God (The Father). So, it depends on which aspect we are referring to.



    Brown-Driver-Briggs' Hebrew Definitions
    H430 אֱלֹהִים ʼĕlôhı̂ym BDB Definition: 1) (plural) 1a) rulers, judges 1b) divine ones 1c) angels 1d) gods 2) (plural intensive—singular meaning) 2a) god, goddess 2b) godlike one 2c) works or special possessions of God 2d) the (true) God 2e) God

    Three beings one God (one united deity, divinity,) (royal family)
     
  17. Selene

    Selene New Member

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    They are the same because Scripture says that Jesus and the Father are one. Scripture also says that Jesus was the Word that came down in the flesh (John 1:14), and this Word that became flesh is God (John 1:1).
     
  18. Foreigner

    Foreigner New Member

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    Selene is correct, Butch.

    Otherwise, we are to actively engage the Holy Spirit for assistance and pray only to God the Father, but Jesus - also God - The King of Kings - is relegated to the bench.

    Sorry, not happening.
     
  19. Butch5

    Butch5 Butch5

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    Scripture does say that Jesus and the Father are one, but what is the context? Paul said that Christ is the fullness of the God head bodily. If that is the case then they are one in purpose. Jesus said not my will , but thine be done. Jesus also prayed to the Father in John 17.

    John 17:20-23 ( KJV )
    Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
    [b]That they all may be one[/b]; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
    I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

    Jesus prayed that His followers would be one as He and the Father are one. Surely you aren't suggesting that Jesus was praying that all of His followers would somehow morph into one being. NO, His pray is for unity. He prays that His followers would be united in their purpose just as He and the Father are united in their purpose.

    Look man, you can have traditions or Scripture. You are making human arguments against the Scriptures. As I said before, its a simple matter to end the discussion. Show me where Scripture teaches us to Worship Jesus and the discussion is over. As I said before, I am not arguing against you, I just don't see anything in Scripture that tells us to worship Jesus. I've asked repeatedly for Scripture and as of now have gotten none. Jesus himself tells us to worship the Father. When the disciples asked Him to teach them how to pray He didn't say approach me like this, He said Our Father who art in heaven. Well, Jesus was on the earth when he said that, so that shows two things. One, He directed their prayers to the Father and two Jesus to them to pray to the Father "In Heaven" not on earth, thus they are not the same being.
     
  20. rockytopva

    rockytopva Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    Butch... I agree with that!

    I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: - Matthew 3:11

    But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: - John 15:26

    Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: - John 16:6,7,8

    The Holy Spirit is sent to us of the Father by the Lord Jesus Christ. The Spirit does what is commanded by Jesus and the Father. When the Spirit enters a persons heart he testifies of Jesus and gives a person the hunger for the word. The Spirit knows that he himself did not pay the price for we humans to enter in and will not glorify or speak of himself but of Jesus Christ. And it is a benefit of knowing Jesus that we are also benefited with the communion of the Holy Spirit.
     
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