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Is the Holy Spirit to be Worshipped?

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Foreigner, Mar 29, 2011.

  1. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    That is because you are failing to acknowledge that Jesus was in a humbled state on Earth for our example.

    So you have decided to disagree with the Christian definition of divinity? Omnipotent, Omnipresent and Omniscient? How do you get around that and by whose authority? I am beginning to wonder if you are JW or LDS.



    Revelation 5:13
    Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!”

    [font="Verdana][size="3"]
    [/size][/font]
     
  2. Selene

    Selene New Member

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    It is not contradictory. Anyone who studied science understands that water can take three different forms and still have the same exact atomic substance. A scientist can even show that when water reached a certain level, all three forms (liquid water, ice, and water vapor) actually become one and exist as one. The triple point of any substance is that temperature and pressure at which the material can coexist in all three phases (solid, liquid and gas) in equilibrium. Specifically the triple point of water is 273.16 K at 611.2 Pa. Therefore, it is not contradictory. The Holy Trinity, on the other hand, is much more complex than water.

    It means that you did not ask yourself those questions.
     
  3. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    And it can be present at the same time - ocean, ice berg, evaporation.



     
  4. Butch5

    Butch5 Butch5

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    Yes, three forms, but it is still water. Look up the Greek word Theos, it is a title, it can be applied to humans. God is not a thing, it is a title given to the Father, Son and holy Spirit. It seems that you actually have 4 entities. God being the fourth.

    What basis do you have for your definition?


    I know the answer to the questions. But, as I said the explanation could get lengthy and don't really think you are interested in it. Why not ask yourself if there are other reasons why John wrote it the way he did, maybe the reasons you have now are not correct. To simply say well if he meant this then he would have written this is not a valid method of exegesis. To assume one must write something the way we would is not valid, especially someone living 2000 years ago, speaking a different language, living in a different culture. Instead of saying He would have written it this way, why not say, how would a first century Jewish writer write this? Remember, John knew nothing of 21st century America, so how would he know how to write it the way you or I think it should have been written? No, we need to understand it with a first century Jewish mind set.
     
  5. Selene

    Selene New Member

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    And no matter what form He takes, He is still God. The title is given to those three because those three are the one and same God.
     
  6. Duckybill

    Duckybill New Member

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    AMEN!

     
  7. Butch5

    Butch5 Butch5

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    Where is the Christian definition fo divinity?

    Thayer’s Greek Definitions
    G2316 θεός theos Thayer Definition: 1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities 2) the Godhead, trinity 2a) God the Father, the first person in the trinity 2b) Christ, the second person of the trinity 2c) Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity 3) spoken of the only and true God 3a) refers to the things of God 3b) his counsels, interests, things due to him 4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way 4a) God’s representative or viceregent 4a1) of magistrates and judges

    The Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament
    G2316. Θεός Theos; gen. Theou, masc. noun. God. Originally used by the heathen, but in the NT as the name of the true God. The heathen thought the gods were makers and disposers (thetēres, placers) of all things. The ancient Greeks used the word both in the sing. and the pl. When they used the pl., they intimated their belief that elements had their own “disposer” or “placer,” e.g., the god of money called mammon (Matt. 6:24; Luke 16:9, 13). The heavens were the grand objects of divine worship throughout the heathen world as is apparent from the names attributed to the gods by the ancient Greeks. The Scriptures also attest to this (Acts 7:42, 43; Deut. 4:19; 17:3; 2 Kings 17:16; 23:4, 5; Job 31:26, 27; Jer. 8:2; 19:13; Zeph. 1:5).

    Strong’s Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries
    G2316 θεός theos theh'-os Of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively a magistrate; by Hebraism very:—X exceeding, God, god [-ly, -ward].


    There's nothing here about Omnipotent, Omnipresent, or Omniscient. Now, I'm not saying that God isn't all of those things, but that is not in the definition of "Theos" God.

    Whether in humbled state or not, if He doesn't know that hour he doesn't know the hour. Besides, the other passage speaks of when all things are put under Christ He will subject Himself to the Father. That is in eternity, not a humbled state while on earth.

    You don't have to wonder my friend, I'm neither JW nor LDS. I'm simply someone who has studied Early Christianity enough to know that a lot of what is practiced today as Christianity, and a lot of what is taught today as Christians, actually isn't. Therefore I reject a lot of what the church teaches because it is not what the apostles taught
     
  8. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    Only God the Father, Jesus and the HS have the characteristics of the three omni - I am not saying that they are limited to them, but no one other than God possesses these characteristics
     
  9. Duckybill

    Duckybill New Member

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    I find it somewhat amusing watching those who deny Jesus/God do their spiritual gymnastics to keep from clearly denying that Jesus is God. They are being influenced by "the spirit of Antichrist".

    1 John 4:3 (NKJV)
    [sup]3 [/sup]and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit
    of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

    Jeremiah 17:10 (NKJV)
    [sup]10 [/sup]I, the Lord, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings.

    Revelation 2:18-23 (NKJV)
    [sup]18 [/sup]"And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write, 'These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass: ... [sup][/sup][sup] [/sup]I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.
     
  10. Butch5

    Butch5 Butch5

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    Yes, they are the same God (Deity, not being), there is only one God. And you have agreed that they are three beings correct? That is what I have been saying. There is the Father, the Son and the holy Spirit. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, yet all three are deity.

    I think what you are missing is that John uses the word God in two different senses in John 1. that that is why keep asking people to define "God". In the Scriptures the word "God" is used in different senses. For instance, it is use as name for the Father, it is also used to say that one is divine. these are the two senses that John uses, the first time he is using it as a name for the Father, the second time he is using it to say that the word is divine.

    We can see this with the example of the Hebrew word translated Adam. it is used as a name for the first man, the word however also means, mankind. So, we could say that Eve was with Adam and Eve was Adam. In this statement we are not saying that Eve is the same person as Adam we are saying that Eve was with Adam, the first man and Eve was Adam, she was human or mankind. This is the way that John uses the word God.

    The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1
    Justin Martyr 160 AD
    And again, Jesus, as we have already shown, while He was with them, said, “No one knoweth the Father, but the Son; nor the Son but the Father, and those to whom the Son will reveal Him.” (Matt. 11:27) The Jews, accordingly, being throughout of opinion that it was the Father of the universe who spake to Moses, though He who spake to him was indeed the Son of God, who is called both Angel and Apostle, are justly charged, both by the Spirit of prophecy and by Christ Himself, with knowing neither the Father nor the Son. For they who affirm that the Son is the Father, are proved neither to have become acquainted with the Father, nor to know that the Father of the universe has a Son; who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God.

    The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1
    Hippolytus 205 AD
    The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 5

    Against the Heresy of One Noetus..

    Some others are secretly introducing another doctrine, who have become disciples of one Noetus, who was a native of Smyrna, (and) lived not very long ago. This person was greatly puffed up and inflated with pride, being inspired by the conceit of a strange spirit. He alleged that Christ was the Father Himself, and that the Father Himself was born, and suffered, and died. Ye see what pride of heart and what a strange inflated spirit had insinuated themselves into him. From his other actions, then, the proof is already given us that he spoke not with a pure spirit; for he who blasphemes against the Holy Ghost is cast out from the holy inheritance. He alleged that he was himself Moses, and that Aaron was his brother. When the blessed presbyters heard this, they summoned him before the Church, and examined him. But he denied at first that he held such opinions. Afterwards, however, taking shelter among some, and having gathered round him some others who had embraced the same error, he wished thereafter to uphold his dogma openly as correct. And the blessed presbyters called him again before them, and examined him. But he stood out against them, saying, “What evil, then, am I doing in glorifying Christ?” And the presbyters replied to him, “We too know in truth one God; we know Christ; we know that the Son suffered even as He suffered, and died even as He died, and rose again on the third day, and is at the right hand of the Father, and cometh to judge the living and the dead. And these things which we have learned we allege.” Then, after examining him, they expelled him from the Church. And he was carried to such a pitch of pride, that he established a school.


    The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 5
    Novatian 235AD
    Argument.—In Fine, Notwithstanding the Said Heretics Have Gathered the Origin of Their Error from Consideration of What Is Written:Although We Call Christ God, and the Father God, Still Scripture Does Not Set Forth Two Gods, Any More than Two Lords or Two Teachers.

    And now, indeed, concerning the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, let it be sufficient to have briefly said thus much, and to have laid down these points concisely, without carrying them out in a lengthened argument. For they could be presented more diffusely and continued in a more expanded disputation, since the whole of the Old and New Testaments might be adduced in testimony that thus the true faith stands. But because heretics, ever struggling against the truth, are accustomed to prolong the controversy of pure tradition and Catholic faith, being offended against Christ; because He is, moreover, asserted to be God by the Scriptures also, and this is believed to be so by us; we must rightly—that every heretical calumny may be removed from our faith—contend, concerning the fact that Christ is God also, in such a way as that it may not militate against the truth of Scripture; nor yet against our faith, how there is declared to be one God by the Scriptures, and how it is held and believed by us. For as well they who say that Jesus Christ Himself is God the Father, as moreover they who would have Him to be only man, have gathered thence the sources and reasons of their error and perversity; because when they perceived that it was written [Galatians 3:20; Deuteronomy 6:4] that “God is one,” they thought that they could not otherwise hold such an opinion than by supposing that it must be believed either that Christ was man only, or really God the Father. And they were accustomed in such a way to connect their sophistries as to endeavour to justify their own error. And thus they who say that Jesus Christ is the Father argue as follows:—If God is one, and Christ is God, Christ is the Father, since God is one. If Christ be not the Father, because Christ is God the Son, there appear to be two Gods introduced, contrary to the Scriptures. And they who contend that Christ is man only, conclude on the other hand thus:—If the Father is one, and the Son another, but the Father is God and Christ is God, then there is not one God, but two Gods are at once introduced, the Father and the Son; and if God is one, by consequence Christ must be a man, so that rightly the Father may be one God. Thus indeed the Lord is, as it were, crucified between two thieves, even as He was formerly placed; and thus from either side He receives the sacrilegious reproaches of such heretics as these.

    The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3.
    Tertullian 213AD
    Chap. XXIX.—It Was Christ that Died, the Father Is Incapable of Suffering Either Solely or with Another. Blasphemous Conclusions Spring from Praxeas’ Premises.

    Silence! Silence on such blasphemy. Let us be content with saving that Christ died, the Son of the Father; and let this suffice, because the Scriptures have told us so much. For even the apostle, to his declaration—which he makes not without feeling the weight of it—that “Christ died,” immediately adds, “according to the Scriptures,” (1 Corinthians 15:3) in order that he may alleviate the harshness of the statement by the authority of the Scriptures, and so remove offence from the reader. Now, although when two substances are alleged to be in Christ—namely, the divine and the human— 626 it plainly follows that the divine nature is immortal, and that which is human is mortal, it is manifest in what sense he declares “Christ died”—even in the sense in which He was flesh and Man and the Son of Man, not as being the Spirit and the Word and the Son of God. In short, since he says that it was Christ (that is, the Anointed One) that died, he shows us that that which died was the nature which was anointed; in a word, the flesh. Very well, say you; since we on our side affirm our doctrine in precisely the same terms which you use on your side respecting the Son, we are not guilty of blasphemy against the Lord God, for we do not maintain that He died after the divine nature, but only after the human. Nay, but you do blaspheme; because you allege not only that the Father died, but that He died the death of the cross. For “cursed are they which are hanged on a tree,” (Galatians 3:13)—a curse which, after the law, is compatible to the Son (inasmuch as “Christ has been made a curse for us,” (Galatians 3:13) but certainly not the Father); since, however, you convert Christ into the Father, you are chargeable with blasphemy against the Father. But when we assert that Christ was crucified, we do not malign Him with a curse; we only re-affirm the curse pronounced by the law: (Deuteronomy 21:23) nor indeed did the apostle utter blasphemy when he said the same thing as we. (Galatians 3:13) Besides, as there is no blasphemy in predicating of the subject that which is fairly applicable to it; so, on the other hand, it is blasphemy when that is alleged concerning the subject which is unsuitable to it. On this principle, too, the Father was not associated in suffering with the Son. The heretics, indeed, fearing to incur direct blasphemy against the Father, hope to diminish it by this expedient: they grant us so far that the Father and the Son are Two; adding that, since it is the Son indeed who suffers, the Father is only His fellow-sufferer. But how absurd are they even in this conceit! For what is the meaning of “fellow-suffering,” but the endurance of suffering along with another? Now if the Father is incapable of suffering, He is incapable of suffering in company with another; otherwise, if He can suffer with another, He is of course capable of suffering. You, in fact, yield Him nothing by this subterfuge of your fears. You are afraid to say that He is capable of suffering whom you make to be capable of fellow-suffering. Then, again, the Father is as incapable of fellow-suffering as the Son even is of suffering under the conditions of His existence as God. Well, but how could the Son suffer, if the Father did not suffer with Him? My answer is, The Father is separate from the Son, though not from Him as God. For even if a river be soiled with mire and mud, although it flows from the fountain identical in nature with it, and is not separated from the fountain, yet the injury which affects the stream reaches not to the fountain; and although it is the water of the fountain which suffers down the stream, still, since it is not affected at the fountain, but only in the river, the fountain suffers nothing, but only the river which issues from the fountain. So likewise the Spirit of God, whatever suffering it might be capable of in the Son, yet, inasmuch as it could not suffer in the Father, the fountain of the Godhead, but only in the Son, it evidently could not have suffered, as the Father. But it is enough for me that the Spirit of God suffered nothing as the Spirit of God, since all that It suffered It suffered in the Son. It was quite another matter for the Father to suffer with the Son in the flesh. This likewise has been treated by us. Nor will any one deny this, since even we are ourselves unable to suffer for God, unless the Spirit of God be in us, who also utters by our instrumentality whatever pertains to our own conduct and suffering; not, however, that He Himself suffers in our suffering, only He bestows on us the power and capacity of suffering. Bookmark Name Bookmark Date Bookmark Text Edit commentary text here


    This is just a few quotes, there are quite a bit more. This shows that the Early church fought vehemently "AGAINST" the doctrine that you are espousing. It was known as Monarchianism. They argued that the Father and the Son were "NOT" the same being.
     
  11. Duckybill

    Duckybill New Member

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    John 14:15 (NKJV)
    [sup]15 [/sup]"If you love Me, keep My commandments.
     
  12. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    Butch - how do you address the problem of polytheism in your theology? One of the ramifications of polytheism is dropping the OT - are you advocating for Christians to do this?
     
  13. Selene

    Selene New Member

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    A Christian does not believe in three deities (gods). There is only ONE God. To say that there are three deities is the same as saying that there are three gods. That would be polytheism. You said that there are three deities. The word "deity" is god. We never say that there are three deities. There are three PERSONS in one God. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three persons who make up the ONE and the SAME God, not three deities (gods).
     
  14. Foreigner

    Foreigner New Member

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    "But my God shall provide all your need according to His riches in glory by Christ Jesus." - Phil 4:19
     
  15. Butch5

    Butch5 Butch5

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    Are you reading my posts? I have affirmed repeatedly that Jesus is God. I don't have to do spiritual gymnastics, I have simply explained the passages that I posted, you have not. I've posted several quotes from those who there, what they said shows that what you are espousing was considered heresy by those of the early church. So, it behooves you to look at your doctrine and consider another understanding of the Trinity.


    I didn't say there were three deities, I said there were three persons, one God. One deity. The one deity consists of, the Father, The Son, and the holy Spirit. This is in accord with Genesis1, Eloheem, is plural, thus, 'let us make man in our image'. Our, is plural and indicates more than one.
     
  16. Butch5

    Butch5 Butch5

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    No, I'm not advocating that at all. As a matter of fact I used Genesis to help prove my point. 'Hear O Israel the Lord your God is one', is that what you are referring to? Well, we see that Eloheem is plural and we see that Moses tells the Israelites that the Lord is one Lord. If there was only one being, why would Moses say the Lord is one? There is no reason for Moses' statement if everyone understood Eloheem as a single being. We have the advantage of having the NT to shed light on the Old. We see from the NT that Jesus is in total submission to the Father and He does the will of the Father.

    John 8:25-29 ( KJV )
    Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
    I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
    They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
    Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
    And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

    I think we can see in this passage that the Jews didn't correctly understand God. They didn't understand that Jesus was speaking of the Father. We know from the NT that David was prophesying of Christ, the Son.

    Psalms 2:1-12 ( KJV )
    Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
    The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
    Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
    He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
    Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
    Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
    I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
    Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
    Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.
    Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
    Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
    Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

    The Son said 'the Lord said unto me". The Son is calling another, Lord. This is who the Son refers to as Lord.

    Title : Strong’s Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries.
    H3068 יְהֹוָה yehôvâh yeh-ho-vaw' From H1961; (the) self Existent or eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God:—Jehovah, the Lord. Compare H3050, H3069.

    The Jews didn't see this

    There is additional evidence in the OT. We know that Jesus said no man has seen God. Well, men have seen Jesus. Abraham, spoke with Jesus.

    Genesis 18:16-22 ( KJV )
    And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way.
    And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;
    Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
    For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
    And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
    I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
    And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.

    No man can see the Father so, it must be Jesus that Abraham is standing before. likewise, Melchizedek, that was also Jesus. In this event it is shown to the Jews that two beings are both called God.


    Genesis 19:24 ( KJV )
    Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

    Both instances of the word LORD use the same name.

    Strong’s Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries
    H3068 יְהֹוָה yehôvâh yeh-ho-vaw' From H1961; (the) self Existent or eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God:—Jehovah, the Lord. Compare H3050, H3069.

    There are other instances where Jesus was seen in the OT, He was with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego also.

    So, getting back to God being one, Jesus shows in the NT that it is the Father's will that is done, not the Son or the Spirit. So, there is one divine will, that of the Father. The Spirit speaks of Jesus and Jesus speaks the words of the Father. So, I think Moses is saying that Eloheem (plural) is one in purpose.
     
  17. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    So you are advocating for belief in The Godhead rather than the Trinity - why didn't you just come right out and say it? Sure would have saved a lot of lame conversation. I feel like I just played a 36 hour game of "Murder"

    Is there any other teaching that is too Catholic for you? The Great Apostasy is a myth, you know....




     
  18. Butch5

    Butch5 Butch5

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    Can you define Godhead? The old English word meant Godhood, like fatherhood or motherhood. Is that what you mean or do you mean something different.

    We wouldn't have had all of that conversation if people would have given a definition of "God". I asked repeatedly for a definition and no one gave one.

    Are you talknig about the apostacy in the last days? If so, why do you say it is a myth?
     
  19. Selene

    Selene New Member

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    Actually, we did define Him. He is three persons in One God. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one and the same and yet different.
     
  20. Butch5

    Butch5 Butch5

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    I was speaking specifically to Aspen to get his understanding in order to answer his question.
     
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