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Is the Holy Spirit to be Worshipped?

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Foreigner, Mar 29, 2011.

  1. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    First, people have been giving you a definition of God for days......you were looking for us to give you your own definition of God; it would have saved some time if you had simply stated your belief and opposition to the Trinity. Instead, you've angered many of the people who would have been happy to engage with you on a level playing field instead of wasting time guessing.

    My definition of the Godhead is basically the 19th century post-protestant religious definition, born more out of opposition to Catholicism than an accurate view of the nature of God. The Godhead is based on the unity of the relationship God the Father, the Son, and the HS; three gods, one relationship.

    The Great Apostacy is another 19th century religious reaction against Catholicism. It is a description of a period of time in history when the Catholic Church was dominate - Adventists, Mormons, JWs believe that Christianity and God left the Earth roughly between the dates of the death of the last apostle and whenever their personal church started.
     
  2. WhiteKnuckle

    WhiteKnuckle New Member

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    I understand the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, as in how they can be one and the same. But, some things do confuse me, but I'm not going to worry about that now. I dont' have to understand.

    What I can do here is give some of my experience.

    When I was younger and struggling with the thought that I would/had commited the unpardonable sin, I naturaly became very concerned with things that have to do with the Holy Spirit.

    I kept feeling like If I worship Jesus then I was leaving him out. It all became very weird and I can't quite explain it. The best way I can describe was a complete nightmare, with no rational thought. I was seeming very close to Skizophrenia with my fears and the whole deal.

    The one scripture that says It pleases God that we glorify his son, and that the Holy Spirit will lead us to Him, makes it pretty clear.

    You're not leaving the Holy Spirit out, and you're not leaving God out. They want us to worship Jesus, who, inpart is also the same as them. All being equal and one. You can't glorify one and not the other. Simple as that.

    So, yes, worship the Spirit of God.
     
  3. Butch5

    Butch5 Butch5

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    My friend, it is not I who was playing games. I had people randomly tossing out verses saying it means this or worse, not saying anything at all. Like I am supposed to know what they they are thinking. I stated that Jesus is God in the beginning and yet have had multiple posts where people said i was denying Trinity or that i was saying Jesus wasn't God. So it;s not me that didn't give the definition. I had people saying that Jesus is one of the three persons of the Trinity and at the same time saying He was the Father. If He is the Father then He isn't a different person. And then we have here you say in this post that I denied the Trinity. I am not in opposition to the Trinity, however,from your statement it seems I am in opposition to your definition of the Trinity. You see this is where the problem started. Christians randomly defining terms as if their definition has some authority. I have presented the Trinity the way the early church did, if today's Christians do not agree then maybe they should consider the possibility that how they understand it may be incorrect. I posted quotes showing that what many believe today was considered heresy in the early church, they stated outright that the Father was not the Son. I can also post a bunch of quotes(if you would like) where they call Jesus God. So they understood that Jesus is God, but He is not the Father. I've heard that the Trinity is beyond our understanding, yet from the quotes it seems they understood it fairly well.So, no wasn't me my friend. I asked over and over again in these two threads.
     
  4. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    Did you state that you believe in a Godhead and would like to have a discussion about the nature of God? Or did you simply ask people if the separate personages of Jesus and the HS should be worshiped? According to the orthodox Christian definition of God today is the Father, Son, and HS are separate personages AND one God. It is viewed as a paradox, rather than an oxymoron. I would think it would be obvious to you that many people cannot explain what they believe, let alone explain what you believe. All I am saying is that you could have been more clear.

    Actually, I still do not know what you believe - I threw out my last guess and I did not see if you confirmed it or denied it. I also noticed that you avoided Duckybill's verse where the wisemen worshiped Jesus.

    I am still hoping you can clear these things up.
     
  5. Butch5

    Butch5 Butch5

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    I didn't ask the questions, I asked for the definition of God. People were making contradictory statements in their own posts. How can I discuss what God means if I don't know what someone means by God?

    Actually, what is orthodox today is irrelevant. I guess it would be if one believes that the Scriptures change. Do you believe the meaning of the Scriptures change?

    I gave the definition of the Father and Son from the early Christians. They were the one who were taught by Christ and the apostles, if what they say is different from modern orthodoxy, as long as it is not opposed to Scripture I will lean their direction, after all some had direct personal contact with the apostles. For instance, Ignatius, he was the disciple of John and he was appointed as the third bishop at Antioch by the apostle Peter. Ignatius says, Jesus is God. I have said nothing different. If find it surprising that you don't' know what I believe after all of this. I wonder if it isn't because of the misstatements. I said Jesus If God, the Father is God, the holy Spirit, is God. All three are separate beings not one being, yet all three are God (deity) they are all divine. I showed that the idea that the Father and the Son are the same being was considered heretical and rejected by the early church.

    What you said about the apostacy, I had never heard that before. So, no, again, I'm not JW. I showed where my understanding comes from and it was many, many, years before there was a JW.

    Regarding Ducky's passage, I did address it. they did worship, however, it does not say the Chrsitian is to do so. Now I'll say again, I didn't say Christians aren't to worship Jesus, I said I didn't see anything in Scripture instructing us to do so.
     
  6. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    I didn't ask the questions, I asked for the definition of God. People were making contradictory statements in their own posts. How can I discuss what God means if I don't know what someone means by God?

    You didn't start two separate threads asking if Jesus and and the HS should be worshiped? You could have started a discussion by stating your point of view and then asking for feedback.

    Actually, what is orthodox today is irrelevant. I guess it would be if one believes that the Scriptures change. Do you believe the meaning of the Scriptures change?

    Whether it is relevant or not, you should realize that most Christians will respond to you with a definition of God that is orthodox today. I do not believe that the meaning of scripture changes nor do I believe it has to in order to support orthodox ideas that have developed over time. The fact is, the scriptures are living and they apply to all ages and even though the scriptures do not change - cultures do change. Our cultures have now been influenced by the work of the HS in our hearts for over 2000 years - we have grown with the Kingdom of God in our hearts since the time of St. Ignatius. The truths in the Bible have been expanded without being contradicted or changed, in order to speak to our generation. The doctrine of predestination, the incarnation and the Trinity prove this.

    I gave the definition of the Father and Son from the early Christians.

    Did you bother to read anything from Athanasius of Alexandria? The reason he had to clarify the orthodox teaching of the nature of God was to defend against heresies like Modalism, Adoptism, and all manifestations of dualism. The early churches' cloudy, unclear understanding of the Godhead was not going to stand up against opposition. Therefore, the church had to develop a doctrine to help clarify what they already believed, but could not express.
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    They were the one who were taught by Christ and the apostles, if what they say is different from modern orthodoxy, as long as it is not opposed to Scripture I will lean their direction, after all some had direct personal contact with the apostles. For instance, Ignatius, he was the disciple of John and he was appointed as the third bishop at Antioch by the apostle Peter. Ignatius says, Jesus is God. I have said nothing different. If find it surprising that you don't' know what I believe after all of this. I wonder if it isn't because of the misstatements. I said Jesus If God, the Father is God, the holy Spirit, is God. All three are separate beings not one being, yet all three are God (deity) they are all divine. I showed that the idea that the Father and the Son are the same being was considered heretical and rejected by the early church.

    The Father and Son are not the same personage according to the doctrine of the Trinity either. Unfortunately, stating that all three are separate, yet divine is polytheistic because according to the OT, there is only one God. The oldest extant work in which the exact word "Trinity" (Greek Trias, triados) is used to refer to Father, Son and Holy Spirit, is Theophilus of Antioch's 2nd-century To Autolycus. The relationship between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit was not explicitly expressed in the writings of ante-Nicene Church Fathers exactly as it would later be defined during the First Council of Nicaea (325) and the First Council of Constantinople (381), namely as one substance (ousios) and three persons (hypostaseis). But their Trinitarian concepts did become defined with greater detail over time in this period.

    What you said about the apostacy, I had never heard that before. So, no, again, I'm not JW. I showed where my understanding comes from and it was many, many, years before there was a JW.

    I was thinking that your doctrine sounded more like SDA than JW. Of course, you know both groups believe they represent the beliefs of the Early Church, as well.

    Regarding Ducky's passage, I did address it. they did worship, however, it does not say the Chrsitian is to do so. Now I'll say again, I didn't say Christians aren't to worship Jesus, I said I didn't see anything in Scripture instructing us to do so.

    How often does the NT instruct us how to worship God? I can think of the Beatitudes and the Lord's Prayer.....
     
  7. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly New Member

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    But the time is coming and is already here when true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth. The Father is looking for anyone who will worship him that way. For God is Spirit, so those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth." John 4:23&24
    I appeal to you therefore, brothers,* by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.* Romans 12:1

    Those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed the passions and desires of their sinful nature to his cross and crucified them there. If we are living now by the Holy Spirit, let us follow the Holy Spirit's leading in every part of our lives. Let us not become conceited, or irritate one another, or be jealous of one another. Gal.5:24-26

    Religious liturgy is a product of carnal nature, it has to do with our personal preferences and religious tradtions, which is why there are so many different sects and denominations within the Christian religious institution. It's been my experience that most people employ a style of liturgy because of how it makes them feel. [​IMG]
     
  8. rjp34652@yahoo.com

    [email protected] Choir Loft

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    Your post regarding the anti-Catholic reaction is clear, but your statement linking the Great Apostacy to that is not.

    According to scripture (2 Thess 2:3) the great "falling away" will occur immediately prior to the revealing of the anti-Christ which in turn happens before the second coming.

    Since we know that AC didn't appear on the scene in the 19th century, your link of the Great Apostacy to anti-Catholicism is incorrect or misleading at best. Perhaps you wish to clarify your remark.

    There are some schools of thought which deny the second coming, the establishment of the kingdom of God upon the earth as a political government, the resurrection of the body and final judgment. Are you of that persuasion? If so it will help to understand your frame of reference.
     
  9. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    My statement was not meant as a teaching or even my opinion. The Great Apostasy in this context, is a false teaching held by Mormons, JWs, and Adventists to be true. All three religions were developed in the 19th century and all three were anti-Catholic.
     
  10. Butch5

    Butch5 Butch5

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    I didn’t start either thread.

    No, the Scriptures were written to 1st century people, their meaning does change or grow. They meant what they meant to the 1st century people. It is up to the Christian to determine what that was and apply it accordingly



    OK, let me clarify, I gave the definition from the Ante-Nicene Fathers. The Ante-Nicene writers weren’t unclear about what they believed.



    Polytheistci? I gave you several examples from the OT showing clearly that there are multiple persons that are God. Whatever I have put forth here is consistent with the OT. We don’t get to define the “One God” statement in the OT. Whatever the definition is it must be consistent with Scripture. Justin used the same passage to prove to Trypho the Jew that his understanding of the “One God” was incorrect also.



    Many groups think they represent the early church beliefs, at least until they realize that the early church doesn’t agree with their doctrines.



    It’s Jesus saying that, and in the Lord’s prayer He specifically says the Father. When Jesus says God, it’s obvious that it is the Father.
     
  11. Duckybill

    Duckybill New Member

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    John 10:27-28 (NKJV)
    [sup]27 [/sup]My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. [sup]28 [/sup]And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
     
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