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Is the Holy Spirit to be Worshipped?

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Foreigner, Mar 29, 2011.

  1. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    Um Butch.....you've done what had seemed impossible - Catholics and Protestants are finally agreeing on something doctrinal!
     
  2. Butch5

    Butch5 Butch5

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    Yes, The Spirit speaks of Jesus and Jesus said He did the will of the Father. Three entities, one divine will.

    There can be unity we just need to be humble.
     
  3. Duckybill

    Duckybill New Member

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    You cannot separate God. Three entities?
     
  4. Selene

    Selene New Member

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    I also noticed that Butch had nothing to say about the biblical scripture saying that the Word came down in the flesh and that the Word is God. :)
     
  5. Butch5

    Butch5 Butch5

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    Yes the word is God, but again, what is the context? You see , the Greek word translated God mean deity, so yes, Jesus is deity, He is not, however, the Father. Most of the references in the NT to God are a reference to the Father. there are a few exceptions and John one is one of them. The problem is in the English translation. Look at John 1 and insert the word deity in place of God and you can easily see what the Greek reader would see.

    In the beginning was the Word (Logos), and the word was with Deity, (God, the Father) and the Word was Deity. What John's reader would see is that there is a supreme deity who the Logos was with, they would also see that the Logos Himself was deity. Thus they would not have understood John to be saying that the Word and the Father are one being but that both of them are deity or divine.

    Duckbill,

    Pleas define what "God" means to you. The word "God" is being used interchangeably in this thread and it is causing much confusion. The Scriptures are clear that there is a Father, Son, and holy Spirit. Claiming they are one being is called "Oneness" is that what you believe? if so, you will encounter problems when you take this to the Scriptures. Simply because Jesus said, the Father is greater than I. If they are the same being, how can that being be greater than Himself? Jesus said, no one knows the hour or the day of His return, except the Father, if they are one being then that means that Jesus did in fact know the day and the hour, thus His statement would be false. Jesus calls the Father His God. If they were one He would be calling Himself His own God.

    Do you see the problems that "Oness" creates? We have three different entities spoken of in Scripture.
     
  6. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    One again, God the Father was greater than Jesus when Jesus was in His Earthly form. Remember Jesus humbled Himself to become an example for us. Christianity is a monotheistic religion because we accept the OT, which correctly points out 100s of times that God is One. Also, it would be blasphemy to baptize anyone in the name of the Father, Son, and HS if only the Father is God.
     
  7. Butch5

    Butch5 Butch5

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    I beleive Jesus is still in his earthly form, His resurrected body. I can't remember the passage off the top of my head that indicates it.
     
  8. Selene

    Selene New Member

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    My brother, the Scripture says, "In the beginning was the Word (Logos), and the Word was with God (Deity), and the Word was God (Deity).
    You are simply putting the word "the Father" where you want it to be and leaving it out where you want it left out. If you believe that the Deity is God the Father as you put it, then it should be this way:

    In the beginning was the Word (Logos) and the Word was with Deity (God, the Father), and the Word was Deity (God the Father).

    The only reason why you leave out "God the Father" in the last phrase of the sentence is because you believe in TWO different gods. Christians are not like the pagans who believe in multiple gods. A Christian believes that there is only ONE God.
     
  9. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    Revelation 1:8

    [sup]8[/sup] “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” [The Father]


    Rev. 22:12-13
    [sup]12[/sup] “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. [sup]13[/sup] I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. [Jesus]
     
  10. Duckybill

    Duckybill New Member

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    How about it Butch? Are you a JW maybe?
     
  11. Butch5

    Butch5 Butch5

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    Yes a Christian does believe there is one God. However, "Oness" was considered heresy in the early church. They believed that there was one God. God is a title,the word means deity or divine. most references in the NT are to the father however, there are a few that speak of Jesus. I have presented quite a few passages in these two threads. Please explain how Jesus can be greater than Himself. Or, please explain how Jesus can know more than Himself. Please explain how it is that God (the Father( is invisible but Jesus is visible if they are the same.

    Scripture tells us and Jesus Himself said that "NO ONE" has seen God, yet while He was saying those words people were looking at Him, How can they be the same being?

    The reason I added the Father was for clarity, to show you how John's readers would understand the Greek. Let's use a different analogy, let's replace the word God with Girl. We could say, in the beginning was Selene and Selene was with a girl and Selene was a girl. The statement is saying that both you had the girl are girls. It is not saying that you are both one single girl.

    I already addressed that. Here it is again.


    Yes the word is God, but again, what is the context? You see , the Greek word translated God mean deity, so yes, Jesus is deity, He is not, however, the Father. Most of the references in the NT to God are a reference to the Father. there are a few exceptions and John one is one of them. The problem is in the English translation. Look at John 1 and insert the word deity in place of God and you can easily see what the Greek reader would see.

    In the beginning was the Word (Logos), and the word was with Deity, (God, the Father) and the Word was Deity. What John's reader would see is that there is a supreme deity who the Logos was with, they would also see that the Logos Himself was deity. Thus they would not have understood John to be saying that the Word and the Father are one being but that both of them are deity or divine.

    I don't see where you're going with this.
     
  12. Duckybill

    Duckybill New Member

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    Sounds like a no to me. How about eternal Hell?
     
  13. Butch5

    Butch5 Butch5

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    Look guys, this isn't the way to get to the truth of Scripture. This is the American way, pick a belief system and find passages to support it. That does not lead to truth. What I have presented is the historic church view. This view is even prior to the Nicene council. Rather than trying to prove it wrong why not seek to understnd it and then decide?

    Sounds like a no??? You posted it, didn't you read it?
     
  14. Duckybill

    Duckybill New Member

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    Personally, I don't think you believe that Jesus is God. But He is.

    Revelation 2:18-23 (NKJV)
    [sup]18 [/sup]"And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write, 'These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass: [sup]19 [/sup]I know your works, love, service, faith, and your patience; and as for your works, the last are more than the first. [sup]20 [/sup]Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. [sup]21 [/sup]And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. [sup]22 [/sup]Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. [sup]23 [/sup]I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.

    Now about the eternal Hell?
     
  15. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    Then you need to read my previous post again

    God is One

    Yet, Jesus and the HS are also divine

    It is impossible to have more than One being who is all-knowing, all powerful, and all present, which is the definition of divinity by definition. Anything less nullifies divinity.


    Therefore, they have to be Triune.

    Finally, Jesus and God the Father share the same name Alpha and Omega because they are both infinite

    You might want to read [font="arial][size="2"]Athanasius of Alexandria's defensive of the Trinity[/size][/font]


     
  16. Selene

    Selene New Member

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    The early Church believed that there is three persons in one God. You ask how can the Father who is invisible be Jesus who is visible? You think that God can be explained according to your own limited human logic. You do not understand that God can defy logic. The Holy Trinity means that Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one and the same and yet different at the same time. If you don't find that logical, that is because it's not supposed to be logical. Since when is God supposed to be logical according to your terms.



    No, you added it because you wanted to support your own beliefs. The problem with your analogy is that it not consistent with the biblical verse. So, let's be consistent. See the following below:


    In the beginning was the Selene, and the Selene was with Girl, and the Selene was Girl.

    In the beginning was the Word (Logos), and the Word was with God (God the Father), and the Word was God (God the Father).

    Just ask yourself this....if the Word was there in the very beginning, then where was God the Father? Was God the Father also there with the Word in the beginning? If so, then why didn't John simply just say....In the beginning was the Word and God. If John believed that Jesus was a lesser god, why did he start with the Logos being there first in the beginning. Shouldn't God the Father be there first in the beginning? Shouldn't it be like this: "In the beginning was God (the Father), and God was with the Word, and God was the Word.
     
  17. Butch5

    Butch5 Butch5

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    You're making my argument for me. You say the Trinity cannot be understood and and that it isn't logical. What are you basing your statements on? Your opinion. Please show why the Trinity cannot be understood. The reason you find it illogical is because "Oneness" is contradictory, Therefore it requires that one forgo logic. Logic and contradiction cannot coexist.

    You purport to know what the early church believed yet you gave no supporting evidence. I gave evidence in another post, from Clement, Paul's traveling companion and from Justin the Martyr. In Genesis, Eloheem says, 'Let "US" make man in "OUR" image. Those words are plural, the Hebrew word Eloheem is plural. If God were one being there would not be a plural usage.

    There is another problem with you view. If The tree are one being, when Jesus died, that would mean the Father and the Spirit also died. Who raised them to life again?







    Now you purport to know what I am thinking?


    In other words John didn't write it the way you want it written? If you know why John wrote that gospel most of those questions would be answered. There is a reason why the Word is mentioned first. However, given the track record I don't really think it would be advantageous to explain. Teh explanation could get lengthy and I don't think you are interested.
     
  18. Duckybill

    Duckybill New Member

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    Matthew 2:11 (NKJV)
    [sup]11 [/sup]And when they had come into the house, they saw the young Child with Mary His mother, and fell down and worshiped Him.
     
  19. Butch5

    Butch5 Butch5

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    Jesus isn't all knowing. He said Himself that only the Father knew the day and the hour of His return.
    Jesus can't be all powerful unless everything is under His power, yet it isn't. The Father is not subject to the Son, therefore Jesus does not have power over the Father.

    1 Corinthians 15:20-28 ( KJV )
    But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
    For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
    For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
    But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
    Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
    For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
    The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
    For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
    And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

    So we see that The Father is exempted from the all things. He has the ultimate authority.

    I have to disagree with your definiton of Divinty also.

    Yes, they did. But where is the teaching to do so.
     
  20. Duckybill

    Duckybill New Member

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    Yes He is.

    John 21:17 (NKJV)
    [sup]17 [/sup]And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You."


     
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