IS THE RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?

[rebuilder 454]

144k is symbolic of the Body of Christ = Jew & Gentile

so the Body of Christ is firstfruits?
TRIBES?
What TRIBE are you?

Yes, HE did.

@rebuilder 454 - Why are you playing the devil's advocate by advocating against what the LORD specifically Said ???

English Standard Version
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Berean Standard Bible
Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’

Berean Literal Bible
And immediately after the tribulation of those days: 'The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.'

King James Bible
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

New King James Version
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

New American Standard Bible
“But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

NASB 1995
“But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

we have always agreed he returns AFTER the tribulation.
I have NEVER said he doesn't

 

[rebuilder 454]

You’ve now created at least four comings of Christ:

1. Rapture of the Church (1 Thess. 4)

2. “Cloud coming” for Jews (Rev. 14)

3. Second coming on white horses (Rev. 19)

4. “Acts 1:11 style” mystery phase with clouds and entourage?

That’s not theology — that’s fan fiction with Scofield footnotes.

Jesus: “Immediately after the tribulation… He will gather His elect.” (Matt. 24:29–31)
You: “Well, actually there are several different kinds of clouds…”

You can redefine "like manner" all day, but the angels didn’t say, “He will return in multiple prophetic layers, depending on which chart you downloaded.” They said He will return as you saw Him go — once, visibly, from the sky.

Also, Revelation 14 isn’t a rapture.
It’s a harvest metaphor — not a harpazo moment, not a flight path, not a Scofield-style boarding call.

You keep inserting phantom raptures into texts that don’t say rapture, then claim we’re the ones “missing it.”
Your system falls apart because it adds extra comings, forces metaphors into timelines, and ignores the one verse you keep dancing around:

He said AFTER.

You can invent “fruit harvests” and spiritual weather patterns all you want —
but there is no verse, not one, that says Jesus returns in phases for different groups.

There’s one return.
One resurrection.
One King.

And unless you’re ready to show me one verse where Jesus says He’s coming twice for two separate peoples,
you’re not teaching Scripture — you’re defending and preaching Scofield blasphemy.

we have always agreed he returns AFTER the tribulation.
I have NEVER said he doesn't

 

[David in NJ]

so the Body of Christ is firstfruits?
TRIBES?
What TRIBE are you?

we have always agreed he returns AFTER the tribulation.
I have NEVER said he doesn't

so the Body of Christ is firstfruits?

YES = Christ the firstfruits - AFTERWARDS = those (firstfruits) at His Coming = 1 Cor ch15

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.

TRIBES?
What TRIBE are you?

That decision has already been made by God for me(and for you) = "Marvel not that I said you must be born-again..."

we have always agreed he returns AFTER the tribulation.

Good - now you are trusting the words of Christ instead of men.

I have NEVER said he doesn't

OOPS!!!
You are not being truthful here as you have said that there are more then one "Coming" of the LORD

Shalom

PS - Come on up and let's go fishing = for men and for fins

 

[rebuilder 454]

YES = Christ the firstfruits - AFTERWARDS = those (firstfruits) at His Coming = 1 Cor ch15

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.


That decision has already been made by God for me(and for you) = "Marvel not that I said you must be born-again..."


Good - now you are trusting the words of Christ instead of men.


OOPS!!!
You are not being truthful here as you have said that there are more then one "Coming" of the LORD

Shalom

PS - Come on up and let's go fishing = for men and for fins

No.
Because Christ is the firstfruits those Afterward are main harvest.
You can't have 2 firstfruits.
I just shake my head at what doctrine does to bible comprehension.
So now you are chosen out of Jewish tribes.

For 40 years of study I have always read and understood Jesus returns postrib.
I am sure most pretribbers believe that.

It is the rapture you guys shy away from.
...and can not reconcile.

BTW...you did not post any verses pointing to the church as firstfruits.
...because that is not at all biblical.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

You guys are splitting hairs over something the text already answers.
Let’s stick to what is written in 1 Corinthians 15:

“But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at His coming, those who belong to Him.” (1 Cor 15:23)

No mention of multiple comings.
No secret raptures.
No theological gymnastics.

One order. One return. One resurrection.

Now, as for the “firstfruits” label:

You're right — Christ alone is the firstfruits of the resurrection.
He is the prototype. The guarantee. The one who opened the grave.

But don’t confuse that with the broader harvest metaphor, where the Church — those who are in Christ — are gathered at His coming, not before.

“We who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep… and the dead in Christ will rise first.” — 1 Thess 4:15–16

So yes — the Church is the main harvest, and the dead in Christ are raised at His coming. Period.
Not seven years before. Not in phases.
At His coming.


As for being “chosen out of Jewish tribes”… come on.
There isn’t a single person on Earth today who can genetically prove they’re from ancient Israel’s tribes — not one.

“There is no Jew or Greek, slave or free… for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” — Galatians 3:28
“Not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.” — Romans 9:6

So unless you’re going to swab DNA and cross-reference it with a 3,000-year-old Levitical registry, maybe let’s stop pretending modern citizenship equals covenant identity.

You’re either in Christ — or you’re not.
Everything else is theater.

 

[David in NJ]

No.
Because Christ is the firstfruits those Afterward are main harvest.
You can't have 2 firstfruits.
I just shake my head at what doctrine does to bible comprehension.
So now you are chosen out of Jewish tribes.

For 40 years of study I have always read and understood Jesus returns postrib.
I am sure most pretribbers believe that.

It is the rapture you guys shy away from.
...and can not reconcile.

BTW...you did not post any verses pointing to the church as firstfruits.
...because that is not at all biblical.

1 Corinthians = written by the Holy Spirit thru the Apostle Paul does not agree with you.

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.

 

[Fred J]

Here are some supporting verses from the Old Testament that the church does not go through the Great Tribulation, i.e. the rapture is pre-tribulation.

Isaiah 26:

19) Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.​

[Refers to the resurrection]​

20) Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.​

[The resurrected Christians have a home in our Father's house - John 14:2-3. This verse alludes to the church being raptured and hiding during the tribulation.]​

21) For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.​

​

[The Great Tribulation.]​

Psalm 27:

5) For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.​

[During the "time of trouble" the church will be hidden in God's house, and they will be set upon a rock, i.e. Jesus.]​

Psalm 57:

1) Be merciful unto me, O God, be merciful unto me: for my soul trusteth in thee: yea, in the shadow of thy wings will I make my refuge, until these calamities be overpast.​

[Again, alludes to the church being hidden during a time of trouble.]​

Psalm 83 (MKJV):

3) They take shrewd counsel against Your people, and plot against Your hidden ones.​

[The nations conspire against God's people Israel and plot against the church, who God hides by rapturing them.]​

Zephaniah 2 (WEB):

3) Seek Yahweh, all you humble of the land, who have kept his ordinances. Seek righteousness. Seek humility. It may be that you will be hidden in the day of Yahweh’s anger.​

[The church will be hidden during the day of God's wrath - the Great Tribulation.]​

Another example, or type, is Enoch, who was caught up (raptured) before the tribulation of the flood - prophetic of the church being raptured before the Great Tribulation - the outpouring of the wrath of God.

Which Great Tribulation are you referring to?

The Tribulation age of darkness where anti-Christ persecutes the church saints worldwide?

Or the Tribulation where GOD from Heaven pours out HIS wrath, plagues that will come upon the ungodly on earth?

Neither?

Revelation 20:
4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgement was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of GOD, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their forehead, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The church saints did go through the Great Tribulation during the reign of anti-Christ for three and a half years.

They were raptured before the Great Tribulation wrath of GOD with plagues on the world.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

 

[Fred J]

No mention of multiple comings.
No secret raptures.
No theological gymnastics.

One order. One return. One resurrection.

There are two return of Christ for His people, the church and Israel.

First return in the clouds where church saints dead and living will be taken up.

Second return with His angels coming down to earth to defend Israel from all their enemies.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ