IS THE RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?

[rebuilder 454]

To the lurkers who don’t really know what’s going on here — let me explain it like this:

Remember those “Choose Your Own Adventure” books from when you were a kid?
“You finally reach the dragon’s cave. To enter, turn to page 34. To run away, turn to page 56.”

That’s basically how the Scofield Bible hijacked 80% of American Christianity starting in the 1920s.
It was the ultimate Trojan Horse — a “free Bible” full of study notes designed not to explain Scripture, but to redirect it.

It trained generations of people — especially good-hearted, rural, churchgoing Americans — to ignore plain verses and instead “turn to some other page” where Scofield’s Zionist footnotes could rewrite the story.

Here’s how it works:

You read in Galatians 3:28:
“There is neither Jew nor Greek... you are all one in Christ Jesus.”

But Scofield’s footnote says no no no...:
“Flip back to Genesis — the Jews are still special because of Abraham!”

Completely ignoring the fact that Jesus already fulfilled the promise to Abraham, nailed the Old Covenant to the cross, and established a new and better covenant — with no ethnic favoritism, no second-class citizens, and no backup plan for unbelieving Israel.

“If you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.” — Galatians 3:29

That’s the true fulfillment.
No one’s “special.”
Not your DNA.
Not your Rothschild/U.N. land deed.
Not your dreams of a third temple.

Just Christ —
and those in Him.
No dual covenant.
No second plan.
No exceptions.
Only the Gospel.

You read in Revelation that the 144,000 are sealed “from all the tribes of the children of Israel.”

But Scofield whispers:
“Don’t worry, that’s not the Church. That’s ethnic Jews in the future! Forget that Paul said ‘not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel’ (Romans 9:6) — let’s insert a gap!”

You read in Ephesians 2 that Christ “broke down the dividing wall” between Jew and Gentile and created “one new man.”

But Scofield says:
“Flip to a chart at the back — God still has two plans, two peoples, and two kingdoms. Just ignore Jesus saying, ‘there shall be one flock, one shepherd.’”

That’s the scam.
That’s why the modern Church doesn’t realize it is Israel — not by flesh, but by faith. (which is the only way in, according to the Gospel).
There’s no ethnic fast-pass.
No bloodline exception.
Only those in Christ are Abraham’s offspring — heirs according to the promise.
(Galatians 3:29)

It doesn’t matter if you’re an “ethnic Jew,” a Gentile, or a Russian, Poll or Eastern European in Tel Aviv pretending to be related to Abraham.
If you’re not in the Church — you’re not in Christ. Period.
And if you reject the King of the Jews, you’re out — regardless of lineage or bloodline.

The covenant wasn’t postponed.
It wasn’t rerouted.
It was fulfilled — in Christ.

There’s no such thing as “replacement theology.”
That’s just a slur word people slap on New Testament truth when they’ve never actually read the Bible without Scofield’s footnotes telling them how to think.

It’s not “replacement” — it’s fulfillment.
Jesus didn’t replace Israel. He fulfilled Israel — and then invited everyone in.

But Scofield rewrote the whole story.
He told the Church to expect a second covenant, a second people, a second plan.
A detour. A delay. A different ending.

And sadly…
most of the Church in the 1920s, ‘30s, and ‘40s bought into it — hook, line, and Scofield.
And it’s still plaguing the Church today, misleading millions away from the truth of the Gospel and the identity of the true Israel —
the Body of Christ.

The Scofield Bible deception was unleashed on the Church in 1909, disguised as a gift — millions of “free Bibles”pumped full of Darby/Scofield Zionist footnotes, laced with heresy, and printed in Oxford with Rockefeller backing.

Why?
Because they knew something critical:
Traditional Christians would never support a Rothschild-backed, UN-orchestrated hijacking of Palestine. (The future plan for the 1940s)
The early Church Fathers knew the truth.
Even Christians during the Civil War era understood:
The Church is Israel.
Not dirt.
Not a nation.
Not a flag.
Not a bloodline.
“My kingdom is not of this world.” — Jesus

So what did Scofield & Oxford do?
They rewrote the narrative.
They mass-produced Trojan Horse “study Bibles” and carpet-bombed the American heartland with them.
They aimed straight at the John Boy Waltons of America — humble, God-fearing people — and systematically reprogrammed them to believe that “Israel” meant a political state, not the Body of Christ.

That is blasphemy of the highest order.
A full-scale theological coup.
As wicked as anything Satan has ever sold to the Church.

They didn't just twist Scripture.
They buried the Gospel under a flag, and called it prophecy.

And looking around today — it worked flawlessly.

We went from a time when 100% of the Church knew the truth...
To a world where maybe 20% of Christians even know what Israel is anymore.
They traded the Gospel for a map.
They replaced the Cross with a flag.
They abandoned the King of the Jews — and replaced Him with a Scofield study note.

Christians from 1770 wouldn’t even recognize what passes for Christianity today.
They’d be horrified that anyone calling themselves a follower of Christ could believe that “Israel” means dirt and land— instead of the Body of Christ.

They wouldn’t argue.
They wouldn’t debate charts.
They’d just stare at Fox News, see pastors cheering on war in the name of prophecy…
and probably break down in tears, realizing how deeply the Church has been misled.

From the Cross to the Constitution to Scofield's study notes — That’s the downgrade.
We traded the Kingdom for a country, and the Messiah for a man-made U.N. map.


View attachment 62833

Scofield can't help you.
How ironic that your doctrine ( you celebrate) comes from dead church fathers and aligns (of course) with the catholic church...complete with DARBY,DARBY , DARBY, DARBY..SCOFIELD, SCOFIELD SCOFIELD SCOFIELD, SCOFIELD SCOFIELD!! Yep your doctrine is from men as you say.
TOO FUNNY.
AS if going extra biblical is your main pillar.
Pure goofiness.
Try the bible.
The one you cast aside for some silly labels.
Juvenile antics that actually make you lose credibility.
If I say you got all your little doctrine from a tract you found in McDonald's, and I can not prove it, and you deny it, for me to continue is making a clown act out of an adult conversation

So every time you say I got my doctrine from somewhere other than the bible, you KNOW FOR A FACT YOU ARE A LITTLE LIAR .

 

[rebuilder 454]

You guys are splitting hairs over something the text already answers.
Let’s stick to what is written in 1 Corinthians 15:

“But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at His coming, those who belong to Him.” (1 Cor 15:23)

No mention of multiple comings.
No secret raptures.
No theological gymnastics.

One order. One return. One resurrection.

Now, as for the “firstfruits” label:

You're right — Christ alone is the firstfruits of the resurrection.
He is the prototype. The guarantee. The one who opened the grave.

But don’t confuse that with the broader harvest metaphor, where the Church — those who are in Christ — are gathered at His coming, not before.

“We who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep… and the dead in Christ will rise first.” — 1 Thess 4:15–16

So yes — the Church is the main harvest, and the dead in Christ are raised at His coming. Period.
Not seven years before. Not in phases.
At His coming.


As for being “chosen out of Jewish tribes”… come on.
There isn’t a single person on Earth today who can genetically prove they’re from ancient Israel’s tribes — not one.

“There is no Jew or Greek, slave or free… for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” — Galatians 3:28
“Not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.” — Romans 9:6

So unless you’re going to swab DNA and cross-reference it with a 3,000-year-old Levitical registry, maybe let’s stop pretending modern citizenship equals covenant identity.

You’re either in Christ — or you’re not.
Everything else is theater.

Sad that your teachers taught you nothing about the purpose of the trib
The 2 covenants
Harvest
Multiple comings.
The bide and groom dimension.
The marriage supper.
The betrothal.

And tons more you are seeing from me for the first time.
Stuff you have no idea about.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Sad that your teachers taught you nothing about the purpose of the trib
The 2 covenants
Harvest
Multiple comings.
The bide and groom dimension.
The marriage supper.
The betrothal.

And tons more you are seeing from me for the first time.
Stuff you have no idea about.

AND PLEASE GOC,
Try real hard to put aside the silliness and address the verses you have never considered.
Ahem, scoffed can not help you.
It is a little fairy tale blanket that will never cover up postribber omissions and changes

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

Scofield can't help you.
How ironic that your doctrine ( you celebrate) comes from dead church fathers and aligns (of course) with the catholic church...complete with DARBY,DARBY , DARBY, DARBY..SCOFIELD, SCOFIELD SCOFIELD SCOFIELD, SCOFIELD SCOFIELD!! Yep your doctrine is from men as you say.
TOO FUNNY.
AS if going extra biblical is your main pillar.
Pure goofiness.
Try the bible.
The one you cast aside for some silly labels.
Juvenile antics that actually make you lose credibility.
If I say you got all your little doctrine from a tract you found in McDonald's, and I can not prove it, and you deny it, for me to continue is making a clown act out of an adult conversation

So every time you say I got my doctrine from somewhere other than the bible, you KNOW FOR A FACT YOU ARE A LITTLE LIAR .

Sad that your teachers taught you nothing about the purpose of the trib
The 2 covenants
Harvest
Multiple comings.
The bide and groom dimension.
The marriage supper.
The betrothal.

And tons more you are seeing from me for the first time.
Stuff you have no idea about.

You’re not teaching the Gospel. You’re teaching a Disney+ end-times fairytale with Scofield as your writer/producer.

Let me be painfully clear for every lurker still trapped in this delusion:

There is one Bride. One Groom. One covenant. One resurrection. One return.
All of it centered on Christ alone — not manufactured False Israel™, not land, not bloodlines, and definitely not Darby’s bedtime story about disappearing Christians and a seven-year Jewish sequel.

You keep talking like the Gospel is some romantic soap opera between God and ethnic Israel — like Jesus is just the warm-up act for the “real” marriage later.

But the New Testament screams otherwise:
“This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.” — Luke 22:20
“There is neither Jew nor Greek… for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” — Galatians 3:28
“If you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed.” — Galatians 3:29

No backup bride. No DNA exception clause. No delayed kingdom.

You talk about the “purpose of the trib” like you’ve uncovered some lost scroll, but all you're doing is regurgitating Scofield’s gaps, delays, and extra timelines — none of which exist in Scripture.

There is no “pre-trib harvest,” no “Jewish-only 144,000 rapture prep squad,” and no second-string Bride waiting in the wings.
There is Christ and His Church — sealed by the Spirit, refined through tribulation, and raised in glory at His coming.

“Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father…” — 1 Corinthians 15:24
“At His coming, those who belong to Him.” — 1 Corinthians 15:23
“And so we will always be with the Lord.” — 1 Thessalonians 4:17

You don’t need a prophecy chart.
You need a Bible without footnotes.

Because what you’re defending is not the Gospel.
It’s a Zionist rebrand of the Church, wrapped in dispensational tinsel and sold to American Christians as eschatological truth.

You say you’ve got “deep truths” and “revelations” —
But Jesus said the truth is plain to those with eyes to see.

And right now?
All I see is someone trying to defend a postponed kingdom, an unfinished covenant, and a second coming Jesus never preached.

Christ is not coming back to marry ethnic Israel.

He already married His Bride at the Cross —
And if you’re not in that covenant, you’re not in the Kingdom.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You’ve woven together a patchwork of half-verses and human interpretations into an elaborate end-times fantasy that flatly contradicts the clear testimony of Jesus, Paul, and the apostles.

Let’s get something straight:
There is only ONE return of Christ — not two.
Hebrews 9:28 says it plainly:

“So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time…”
Second time. Not third. Not secretly first and publicly second.

There is no secret rapture, no pre-trib shuttle launch to heaven. That idea is a 19th-century invention, not biblical doctrine.

You’ve turned “the blessed hope” (Titus 2:13) into an escapist fairytale that contradicts Jesus’ own words:

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days… they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven…” (Matthew 24:29–30)

AFTER. THE. TRIBULATION.

As for Romans 11 — Paul never said all ethnic Israelites would be saved regardless of faith. That’s a dangerous misreading. The context of Romans 9–11 is crystal clear:

“They are not all Israel who are of Israel…
That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God:
But the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”
(Romans 9:6–8)

What does that mean?

It means just being born Jewish doesn’t make you one of God’s people.
Being in God’s family has nothing to do with your DNA.
God doesn’t care about your last name — He cares about your faith.

If you don’t believe in Jesus, you’re not in.
Not “chosen.”
Not “elect.”
Not part of God’s promise.
Only people who believe in Jesus — whether they’re Jews or Gentiles — are counted as true Israel.

No faith = no covenant.

That’s not mean — that’s the Bible.

And let’s take this insanity a step further and stop living in delusion…

We’re not just talking about unbelieving Jews from the Bible — we’re talking millions of white European Khazars today who aren’t even ethnically or genetically connected to Abraham at all. Their ancestors converted to Judaism around 740 AD in a kingdom called Khazaria. That’s a fact you can feel free to investigate.

They’re not “children of the promise.”
They’re not “Israel.”
They’re not even Semitic — they’re descendants of Turkic pagan tribes who picked Judaism like a team jersey back in 740 AD. They moved into Russia & Eastern Europe and now we they strut around claiming to be “God’s chosen” while rejecting the very God who sent the Messiah.

Let’s be real — anyone who thinks Jerry Seinfeld or Rob “Meathead” Reiner are genetically connected to Abraham or the Biblical tribe of Judah is living in a fantasy world on par with the current “men can get pregnant” insanity. This is spiritual delusion at its highest level — and it’s infected the Church.

You don’t get into the covenant through bloodlines or conversions.
You get in through Jesus Christ alone.
No faith = no covenant.
No Christ = no salvation.

And somehow, this insane cosplay is openly accepted — not just by the world, but by miseld Christian evengelicals who are supposed to know the Word of God.

It’s like living in a spiritual asylum where faithless descendants of medieval converts are considered “elect,” while born-again believers in Christ are treated like second-class citizens in God’s own house.

Newsflash:
Jesus didn’t die so temple floors could run red with animal blood again.
He didn’t shed His blood to revive Old Testament rituals or reestablish genealogical supremacy.
He came to fulfill the promise, abolish the dividing wall, and create one new man in Christ — Jew and Gentile alike (Ephesians 2:14–16).

If you’re still waiting for a third temple, a Levitical priesthood, or some DNA-based redemption arc —
you’ve missed the cross.

This isn’t just bad theology —
it’s blasphemy.

It spits on the finished work of Christ.
It mocks the blood that was already poured out.
And it replaces the Gospel with a racial fairytale.

If you're still clinging to that lie —
repent before the curtain drops…
and you realize too late that you’re not inside the Kingdom.
You’re outside, pounding on the door —
thinking your bloodline was your ticket in.

You’re using Romans 11 to create a backdoor to salvation that bypasses Christ. That’s not sound doctrine — that’s another gospel. And Paul already warned us what happens to anyone who preaches that:

“If any man preach any other gospel… let him be accursed.” (Galatians 1:8–9)

Jesus doesn’t need a rebuilt temple.
He is the Temple (John 2:19).
He doesn’t need sacrifices reinstated.
He is the Lamb once and for all (Hebrews 10:10–14).
He doesn’t need to return twice.
When He comes, every eye will see Him. (Revelation 1:7)

Stop waiting for a third temple.
Stop preaching a two-tier salvation system.
Stop calling the enemies of the Gospel “elect” when Paul explicitly says they were broken off for unbelief. (Romans 11:20)

The covenant doesn’t return to the Jews after the Church.
The Church is the continuation and fulfillment of Israel — grafted in to one olive tree. There is one people of God, one covenant, one Messiah — and His name is Jesus.

He doesn’t come back to endorse a Middle Eastern bloodline.
He comes back to judge the world and gather His bride — the remnant who believe, Jew or Gentile alike.

If you’re trusting in genealogies, third temples, or Scofield timelines, you’re not walking by faith — you’re chasing shadows.

Repent.
The Gospel is not nationalistic.
The Gospel is Christ — and if you’re not in Him, you’re not in the covenant.

QUOTE
""Let’s get something straight:
There is only ONE return of Christ — not two.
Hebrews 9:28 says it plainly:
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time…”
Second time. Not third. Not secretly first and publicly second.

There is no secret rapture""
1 CORRECT NO SECRET RAPTURE.
it is some silly postribber fasle talking point that hurts your credibility.
2) you left out " them that look for him...:"
So it , the pretrib rapture has nothing to do with any of your doctrine as you DEFINATELY think inyour mind Jesus can not possibly come for several years.
SMH.

QUOTE
"As for Romans 11 — Paul never said all ethnic Israelites would be saved regardless of faith. That’s a dangerous misreading. The context of Romans 9–11 is crystal clear"

WOW.
WHAT IGNORANCE.
BOTH RUTH AND HOSEA HAVE THE JEWISH WIFE REUNITED.
Romans 11 is a billboard in your front yard that you scoff at.
So your doctrine is ironically scoff field
Oh the irony. The ignorance.
Just plain goofy to Jetson God's word for some erroneous doctrine.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You’re not teaching the Gospel. You’re teaching a Disney+ end-times fairytale with Scofield as your writer/producer.

Let me be painfully clear for every lurker still trapped in this delusion:

There is one Bride. One Groom. One covenant. One resurrection. One return.
All of it centered on Christ alone — not manufactured False Israel™, not land, not bloodlines, and definitely not Darby’s bedtime story about disappearing Christians and a seven-year Jewish sequel.

You keep talking like the Gospel is some romantic soap opera between God and ethnic Israel — like Jesus is just the warm-up act for the “real” marriage later.

But the New Testament screams otherwise:
“This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.” — Luke 22:20
“There is neither Jew nor Greek… for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” — Galatians 3:28
“If you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed.” — Galatians 3:29

No backup bride. No DNA exception clause. No delayed kingdom.

You talk about the “purpose of the trib” like you’ve uncovered some lost scroll, but all you're doing is regurgitating Scofield’s gaps, delays, and extra timelines — none of which exist in Scripture.

There is no “pre-trib harvest,” no “Jewish-only 144,000 rapture prep squad,” and no second-string Bride waiting in the wings.
There is Christ and His Church — sealed by the Spirit, refined through tribulation, and raised in glory at His coming.

“Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father…” — 1 Corinthians 15:24
“At His coming, those who belong to Him.” — 1 Corinthians 15:23
“And so we will always be with the Lord.” — 1 Thessalonians 4:17

You don’t need a prophecy chart.
You need a Bible without footnotes.

Because what you’re defending is not the Gospel.
It’s a Zionist rebrand of the Church, wrapped in dispensational tinsel and sold to American Christians as eschatological truth.

You say you’ve got “deep truths” and “revelations” —
But Jesus said the truth is plain to those with eyes to see.

And right now?
All I see is someone trying to defend a postponed kingdom, an unfinished covenant, and a second coming Jesus never preached.

Christ is not coming back to marry ethnic Israel.

He already married His Bride at the Cross —
And if you’re not in that covenant, you’re not in the Kingdom.

You keep going to scoff field land.
Stop all the juvenile scoffing.
I know you can't because that scoffing spirit in you invents all that "Disney land mess"
You have actually pulled that scoffing goofiness for so long it is in your DNA, and you can't controll it.
You want to be an adult some day?
Want to contribute as an adult?
Stop all that scoffing and Crack a bible.

Nobody tales a juvenile scoffer seriously.
But how ironic that the guy that can't make a post without begging Scofield for help desperately, is in fact living in scoff field land.

Flat out comical

 

[rebuilder 454]

YES = Christ the firstfruits - AFTERWARDS = those (firstfruits) at His Coming = 1 Cor ch15

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.


That decision has already been made by God for me(and for you) = "Marvel not that I said you must be born-again..."


Good - now you are trusting the words of Christ instead of men.


OOPS!!!
You are not being truthful here as you have said that there are more then one "Coming" of the LORD

Shalom

PS - Come on up and let's go fishing = for men and for fins

Quote
"- now you are trusting the words of Christ instead of men."

Says the man that has his no 1 PILLAR that ALL YOUR DOCTRINE is based on is DEAD ANCIENTS WITH LIMITED REVELATION.

YOU actually celebrate your origins from DEAD MEN.
Oh the irony!!!!!

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

QUOTE
""Let’s get something straight:
There is only ONE return of Christ — not two.
Hebrews 9:28 says it plainly:
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time…”
Second time. Not third. Not secretly first and publicly second.

There is no secret rapture""
1 CORRECT NO SECRET RAPTURE.
it is some silly postribber fasle talking point that hurts your credibility.
2) you left out " them that look for him...:"
So it , the pretrib rapture has nothing to do with any of your doctrine as you DEFINATELY think inyour mind Jesus can not possibly come for several years.
SMH.

QUOTE
"As for Romans 11 — Paul never said all ethnic Israelites would be saved regardless of faith. That’s a dangerous misreading. The context of Romans 9–11 is crystal clear"

WOW.
WHAT IGNORANCE.
BOTH RUTH AND HOSEA HAVE THE JEWISH WIFE REUNITED.
Romans 11 is a billboard in your front yard that you scoff at.
So your doctrine is ironically scoff field
Oh the irony. The ignorance.
Just plain goofy to Jetson God's word for some erroneous doctrine.

You just called Romans 11 a “billboard,” but apparently you’re driving past it at 90mph, eyes closed, with Scofield’s bumper stickers blocking the windshield.

Let’s make this real simple:

Hebrews 9:28
“To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time…”

Second. Time.
Not 2.5.
Not secretly for the Church, and later for Israel.
There is zero mention of a two-phase return, and the idea that Christ’s return depends on your mood or “readiness” is theological cotton candy — fluffy, sweet, and completely lacking in substance.

Your argument?

“Well you don’t think Jesus could come back right now!”

Exactly.
Because Jesus Himself said certain things must happen first:

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days…” — Matthew 24:29
“That day shall not come except there come a falling away first…” — 2 Thessalonians 2:3

I don’t care how eager you are — you can’t override God’s timeline with emotional anticipation.

Now let’s talk Romans 11, since you tossed that grenade like it proves ethnic salvation:

You’re quoting Hosea and Ruth like the Church is blind to some esoteric love story — but the New Testament already interprets Hosea.

“Those who were not My people I will call ‘My people,’”
“And her who was not beloved, ‘Beloved.’” — Romans 9:25

Who’s Paul talking about?
Not ethnic Jews — Gentiles being grafted into the covenant by faith.

And Ruth?
A Moabite woman who forsook her people, clung to Naomi’s God, and entered the bloodline of Christ by faith — not bloodline. You just proved my point without realizing it.

You keep saying “the Jewish wife is reunited” — but Paul already told you who the Bride is:

“I betrothed you to one husband, that I might present you as a pure virgin to Christ.” — 2 Corinthians 11:2

“This mystery is profound… and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the Church." — Ephesians 5:32

Not Israel after the Church.
Not wife #1 and wife #2.
One Bride. One covenant. One return.

And here’s the dagger:

“They were broken off because of unbelief… and you stand by faith. Do not become proud, but fear.” — Romans 11:20

That’s the context.
Not a prophetic reunion with faithless Jews.
Not a bloodline redemption arc.
But a solemn warning: faith is the only ticket in.

You want to talk “ignorance”?
Then let’s talk theology — because your version of salvation requires:

A postponed covenant (not biblical)

A redefinition of “elect” that excludes faith (not biblical)

A second bride (not biblical)

And a third temple Jesus never asked for (definitely not biblical)

If “all Israel will be saved” means genetic Jews without Christ get a free pass — then Paul just contradicted himself six verses earlier:

“And even they — if they do not continue in unbelief — will be grafted in.” — Romans 11:23

IF.
Not “when.”
Not “regardless.”
Not “because of bloodline.”
IF they believe.

So unless you think Paul was having a theological stroke mid-chapter, you need to let go of the Scofield fantasy and read the whole passage.

Jesus doesn’t return to marry a rebellious nation.
He returns for His Bride — washed in the blood, born of the Spirit, marked by faith.

If you think He’s showing up to hand out second covenants to people who still reject Him —
you’ve traded the Gospel for a Zionist bedtime story.

The Gospel is not about a land.
It’s not about a race.
It’s not about a national reunion.

It’s about a Kingdom not of this world
A Temple made without hands
A people of every tribe and tongue — gathered into one Body.

So no — I’m not scoffing at Romans 11.
I’m just not reading it through the Scofield lens you’ve duct-taped to your face.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Yes, HE did.

@rebuilder 454 - Why are you playing the devil's advocate by advocating against what the LORD specifically Said ???

English Standard Version
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Berean Standard Bible
Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’

Berean Literal Bible
And immediately after the tribulation of those days: 'The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.'

King James Bible
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

New King James Version
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

New American Standard Bible
“But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

NASB 1995
“But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

It was the devil in the desert that twisted verses.
Kinda like how you and EVERY postribber does to the following.
Acts 1 like manner.
Rev 14:14
Your "AFTER THE TRIBULATION" OF MATT 24
( Not a single one of you cab actually READ)
Go back and read it r e a l s l o w w w.
Angels gather ..NOT JESUS. ..IN FACT HE SENDS THEM...HE IS NOT PRESENT.

The Gathering is FROM HEAVEN....NOT EARTH.

I know..it is futile because you have been shown it ..what....50 times.
And it is flat out goofy that IT IS STILL YOUR ERRONEOUS BANNER AND FOUNDATION STONE.

But there is no excuse for changing the next coming PRETRIB AS JESUS VIVIDLY DECLARES AS "BEFORE THE FLOOD"

I JUST SHAK MY HEAD IN DISBELIEF.
I am seeing the same diluted mess with the woke democrats.
Facts presented do not register.
A breakdown in brain processing.
Just flat out bizarre.

 

[rebuilder 454]

144k is symbolic of the Body of Christ = Jew & Gentile

That tells me you must be replacement theology. The anti semetic christian error that is floating around

 

[rebuilder 454]

You just stitched together a Scofield fever dream and called it “doctrine.”
Let’s burn it down with the actual words of Christ.

Noah was not “raptured.”
He was left on Earth — preserved through judgment while the wicked were taken.

“The flood came and took them all away. So shall the coming of the Son of Man be.” — Matthew 24:39

The ones taken were the wicked.
Noah remained.
You got it completely backwards.

Same with Lot — he didn’t vanish.
He ran. Fled. Escaped by inches.
He wasn’t raptured — he was spared through judgment, just like the end-time remnant will be.

The five wise virgins?
They waited. They endured. They went in after the delay.
Not before. Not “poof, we’re gone.”
Jesus literally says the bridegroom was delayed — and only those ready when He finally came went in. (Matthew 25:5–10)

And you dare say “only the satanic army is destroyed” at the Second Coming?

Have you even read 2 Thessalonians?
“He will slay the lawless one with the breath of His mouth and destroy him by the splendor of His coming.” — 2 Thess 2:8
“In flaming fire, taking vengeance on those who know not God...” — 2 Thess 1:8

The wicked are judged when Christ returns.
Not 7 years later.
Not at some imaginary third coming.
Not after your Scofield-sponsored fantasy timeline.

Only pre-trib fits?
Only pre-trib fits if you rip verses out of context, ignore everything Jesus said, and blindly trust a 19th-century Zionist conman who added his own footnotes to Scripture.

“Immediately after the tribulation... He will send His angels... and gather His elect.” — Matthew 24:29–31
AFTER. Not before. Not secret. Not invisible. Not Scofield.
Jesus said AFTER.

There is no verse — not one — that says Jesus comes twice for the church.
There is no verse that says believers get a backstage pass while Israel takes the hit.
There is no verse that splits the people of God into fake timelines, fake covenants, and fake second chances.

You’re not defending the Gospel.
You’re defending a lie that insults the blood of Christ, mocks the testimony of the martyrs, and turns the New Covenant into a sideshow for Zionist politics.

You said my doctrine is easily debunked?
No — yours is easily sold in prophecy conferences and rejected by every apostle that ever lived.

When Jesus returns, there won’t be a Scofield study Bible left standing.
There will be fire, judgment, and glory — and those who endure to the end will be saved.
Not those who thought they’d fly out early and skip the cross.

Keep your rapture fiction.
I’ll keep the words of the King.

Quote
"The ones taken were the wicked.
Noah remained.
You got it completely backwards"

Jesus said they are taken before the flood.

You claim is impossible,( but I know, that scoff field spirit is guiding you).
1) the mark of the beast would have to have been implemented. Plus Jesus said half were taken. Half left.
So all your teachers and every single post tribber is trying to tell me that half the world is saved ,and half the world is righteous. Which is so far from the truth, It is just plain ridiculous, but that's where your doctrine. Has taken you.
The Post tribber doctrine beast has died in the desert.
Leaving you without answer to the omitted by you verses.
Your theory of half the world righteous , but Jesus takes the wicked ( which man taught you is half earths population) is flat out ludicrous.
That alone is embarrassing

 

[rebuilder 454]

You just called Romans 11 a “billboard,” but apparently you’re driving past it at 90mph, eyes closed, with Scofield’s bumper stickers blocking the windshield.

Let’s make this real simple:

Hebrews 9:28
“To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time…”

Second. Time.
Not 2.5.
Not secretly for the Church, and later for Israel.
There is zero mention of a two-phase return, and the idea that Christ’s return depends on your mood or “readiness” is theological cotton candy — fluffy, sweet, and completely lacking in substance.

Your argument?

“Well you don’t think Jesus could come back right now!”

Exactly.
Because Jesus Himself said certain things must happen first:

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days…” — Matthew 24:29
“That day shall not come except there come a falling away first…” — 2 Thessalonians 2:3

I don’t care how eager you are — you can’t override God’s timeline with emotional anticipation.

Now let’s talk Romans 11, since you tossed that grenade like it proves ethnic salvation:

You’re quoting Hosea and Ruth like the Church is blind to some esoteric love story — but the New Testament already interprets Hosea.

“Those who were not My people I will call ‘My people,’”
“And her who was not beloved, ‘Beloved.’” — Romans 9:25

Who’s Paul talking about?
Not ethnic Jews — Gentiles being grafted into the covenant by faith.

And Ruth?
A Moabite woman who forsook her people, clung to Naomi’s God, and entered the bloodline of Christ by faith — not bloodline. You just proved my point without realizing it.

You keep saying “the Jewish wife is reunited” — but Paul already told you who the Bride is:

“I betrothed you to one husband, that I might present you as a pure virgin to Christ.” — 2 Corinthians 11:2

“This mystery is profound… and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the Church." — Ephesians 5:32

Not Israel after the Church.
Not wife #1 and wife #2.
One Bride. One covenant. One return.

And here’s the dagger:

“They were broken off because of unbelief… and you stand by faith. Do not become proud, but fear.” — Romans 11:20

That’s the context.
Not a prophetic reunion with faithless Jews.
Not a bloodline redemption arc.
But a solemn warning: faith is the only ticket in.

You want to talk “ignorance”?
Then let’s talk theology — because your version of salvation requires:

A postponed covenant (not biblical)

A redefinition of “elect” that excludes faith (not biblical)

A second bride (not biblical)

And a third temple Jesus never asked for (definitely not biblical)

If “all Israel will be saved” means genetic Jews without Christ get a free pass — then Paul just contradicted himself six verses earlier:

“And even they — if they do not continue in unbelief — will be grafted in.” — Romans 11:23

IF.
Not “when.”
Not “regardless.”
Not “because of bloodline.”
IF they believe.

So unless you think Paul was having a theological stroke mid-chapter, you need to let go of the Scofield fantasy and read the whole passage.

Jesus doesn’t return to marry a rebellious nation.
He returns for His Bride — washed in the blood, born of the Spirit, marked by faith.

If you think He’s showing up to hand out second covenants to people who still reject Him —
you’ve traded the Gospel for a Zionist bedtime story.

The Gospel is not about a land.
It’s not about a race.
It’s not about a national reunion.

It’s about a Kingdom not of this world
A Temple made without hands
A people of every tribe and tongue — gathered into one Body.

So no — I’m not scoffing at Romans 11.
I’m just not reading it through the Scofield lens you’ve duct-taped to your face.

QUOTE
""Who’s Paul talking about?
Not ethnic Jews — Gentiles being grafted into the covenant by faith.""

Wow
I can tell you right now you have a severe compression problem.

Now you have the Gentiles cast off of the branch, and cut off for the sake of the Gentile church, but those Gentiles grafted back in.

This stuff of yours gets crazier all the time.

Paul HIMSELF said the Jews were his brethren and the Gospel to be preached to the Jews first and then the greek.

Repl Theo nonsense and craziness

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

It was the devil in the desert that twisted verses.
Kinda like how you and EVERY postribber does to the following.
Acts 1 like manner.
Rev 14:14
Your "AFTER THE TRIBULATION" OF MATT 24
( Not a single one of you cab actually READ)
Go back and read it r e a l s l o w w w.
Angels gather ..NOT JESUS. ..IN FACT HE SENDS THEM...HE IS NOT PRESENT.

The Gathering is FROM HEAVEN....NOT EARTH.

I know..it is futile because you have been shown it ..what....50 times.
And it is flat out goofy that IT IS STILL YOUR ERRONEOUS BANNER AND FOUNDATION STONE.

But there is no excuse for changing the next coming PRETRIB AS JESUS VIVIDLY DECLARES AS "BEFORE THE FLOOD"

I JUST SHAK MY HEAD IN DISBELIEF.
I am seeing the same diluted mess with the woke democrats.
Facts presented do not register.
A breakdown in brain processing.
Just flat out bizarre.

You just compared quoting Jesus to Satan in the desert. That says everything we need to know.

Here’s the real irony:
You’re accusing others of “twisting Scripture” while completely skipping the plain, repeated words of Jesus Christ Himself:

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days… the Son of Man will appear in heaven…” — Matthew 24:29–30

You mock that like it’s some fringe doctrine — but it’s not a theory.
It’s not a chart.
It’s red-letter scripture. Direct from the mouth of the King.

And all six translations David in NJ posted agree — word for word.

But instead of repenting, you dodge the verse, misquote Revelation, and somehow bring up “before the flood” as if Noah’s boat ride has more interpretive weight than Christ’s literal statement about His return. That’s Scofield syndrome — confusing parables with prophecy and ignoring what’s right in front of you.

Let’s deal with your claims:
“He sends angels — He is not present.”

False.

“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven… and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” — Matthew 24:30

He’s very much present. And the angels gather His elect at His coming. Not before. Not seven years earlier. At His return.

“The Lord Himself shall descend from heaven…” — 1 Thess. 4:16
“Every eye shall see Him…” — Rev. 1:7
“At His coming, those who belong to Him.” — 1 Cor. 15:23

There is no “gathering from heaven” in Matthew 24 — that’s your imagination.
The text says:

“He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

You twist “heaven” to mean they’re already up there, but the Greek says ἐκ τῶν τεσσάρων ἀνέμων (ek tōn tessarōn anemōn) — from the four winds — which in biblical context always refers to the four directions of the earth: east, west, north, and south (see Daniel 7:2, Zechariah 2:6).

It’s a worldwide gathering — not a pre-trib heavenly shuttle launch.
They’re being gathered from the ends of the earth, not down from heaven.

And now you’re comparing faithful, Bible-believing Christians to “woke Democrats” because… they read the Bible in context?

What’s "bizarre" is that you hear Jesus say “after the tribulation,” and you say:

“Nope. Pre-trib rapture!”

You hear Paul say “at His coming,” and you say:

“Actually… years earlier.”

You read Revelation 7 where a great multitude comes out of the tribulation, and you say:

“That’s not the Church.”

^ That’s not faith — that’s theological gaslighting.

Let me be blunt:

Scofield didn’t die for you.

Darby’s charts didn’t rip the veil.

There is no salvation in a pre-trib fantasy.

If your theology needs to avoid Jesus’ words to stay intact — it’s not a doctrine. It’s a delusion.

You’re not defending truth. You’re mocking it.
Calling Jesus’ timeline “bizarre” while clinging to an invented doctrine from the 1800s that nobody in the early Church taught, believed, or recognized.

That’s the real “breakdown in brain processing.”

You want to shake your head in disbelief?
Same. At how far the modern Church has fallen — when quoting Christ is considered heresy, and Scofield’s footnotes are treated like scripture.

 

[Helen]

Just don’t hold your breath .
Tribulation …yes. But the rapture as it is taught , no!

Father has not spend the decades in training our right hand to war ( as King David wrote) and put through tests and trials of life , so that He will suddenly yap His Glorious Church out of here!
We are not here ‘for’ it , but we will be here through it!
His True Church is yet to be seen in all her glory , to glorify Him!

The rapture we will be caught up in , is to finally see face to face of beauty Beloved .
Rapture indeed.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

QUOTE
""Who’s Paul talking about?
Not ethnic Jews — Gentiles being grafted into the covenant by faith.""

Wow
I can tell you right now you have a severe compression problem.

Now you have the Gentiles cast off of the branch, and cut off for the sake of the Gentile church, but those Gentiles grafted back in.

This stuff of yours gets crazier all the time.

Paul HIMSELF said the Jews were his brethren and the Gospel to be preached to the Jews first and then the greek.

Repl Theo nonsense and craziness

Compression problem? No — you’re the one choking on Scofield’s fumes.

Let’s break this down like adults who can read a full sentence in context.

Romans 11 does not say ethnic Jews are saved because they’re Jews.

It says:
“They were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not become arrogant, but fear.”
— Romans 11:20

You’re quoting Paul’s love for his brethren in Romans 9 like that somehow overrides the entire next two chapters where he explains how salvation works.

He doesn’t say:
“Jews are in no matter what.”

He says:
“Not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.” (Romans 9:6)
“The children of the promise are counted as the seed.” (Romans 9:8)

So no — Paul isn’t confused. You are.

You’re the one turning the olive tree into some Scofield-approved ethnic family tree — when Paul literally says faith is the key:

“And even they — if they do not continue in unbelief — will be grafted in.” — Romans 11:23

IF.
Not “because they’re Jews.”
Not “because of bloodline.”
If they believe.

And no, the Gentiles weren’t “cut off” — that’s you mangling the metaphor. Paul’s warning is about humility, not timeline swaps:

“God did not spare the natural branches; He will not spare you either.” — Romans 11:21

That’s not a prophecy about Gentile removal — it’s a call to fear God and remain in the faith, because salvation isn’t an entitlement for anyone — Jew or Gentile.

You keep crying “Replacement Theology” like it’s a swear word.
But no one replaced anything — Jesus fulfilled it.

“If you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed.” — Galatians 3:29

That’s not replacement — that’s inheritance.

The true Israel has always been the faithful remnant — not people with a last name that ends in -stein or -berg.

This isn’t about ethnicity.
It’s about covenant.
And if you’re not in Christ — you’re not in.

All of Romans 11 hinges on belief:

Branches broken off = unbelief
Branches grafted in = belief
Future hope = if they do not remain in unbelief

And you’re out here pretending that just being Jewish is a golden ticket?

That’s not Gospel.
That’s nationalism wrapped in a Scofield study note.

You want to talk about “crazy”?
What’s crazy is thinking the same Paul who wrote Galatians 3:28 — “there is neither Jew nor Greek, for you are all one in Christ Jesus” — suddenly flipped in Romans 11 and created a bloodline bypass around the cross.

“No one comes to the Father except through Me.” — Jesus, John 14:6

If your theology makes an exception, it’s not Christianity.

 

[David in NJ]

That tells me you must be replacement theology. The anti semetic christian error that is floating around

So you believe the Hebrew MESSIAH is anti-semitic???

Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?
“Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.
And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”

Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they perceived that He was speaking of them.
But when they sought to lay hands on Him, they feared the multitudes, because they took Him for a prophet.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

So you believe the Hebrew MESSIAH is anti-semitic???

Yes, Dispensationalists are that misled, that brainwashed — and frankly, that spiritually terrifying.

You can literally quote Jesus Christ — the King of the Jews…
You can quote Paul — a Hebrew of Hebrews, or Peter — the apostle to the circumcision…
…and they’ll still scream, “Anti-Semite! Racist! Nazi!!”

Because in their twisted theology, defending the Gospel is hate speech — and rejecting Christ is somehow "holy" if you do it from Jerusalem.

They’ve replaced the Word of God with Zionist propaganda.
They’ve turned the Cross into a political footnote.
They’ve traded the Gospel for a U.N. border map and a bloodline.

To them, if you say:
“There is no salvation outside of Christ…”

They hear:
“You must be Hitler.”

If you declare:
“The Church is the Israel of God…”

They scream:
“That’s replacement theology — you're dangerous!”

It’s insanity.
Spiritual delusion in real time.
And the worst part? They’re not just confused — they’re evangelizing that confusion to millions.

This is why the remnant has to rise up — not with political allegiance, but with unshakable allegiance to the Gospel.
Because when quoting Jesus gets you called a heretic…
That’s not just when you know the modern Church has been infiltrated —
That’s when you realize it was hijacked.

The breach happened in 1909, when the Scofield Bible smuggled Zionism, dual-covenant heresy, and end-times delusion right into the pews — dressed in footnotes, sold as study aids, and worshipped like scripture ever since.

That’s when pastors stopped preaching Christ crucified and started preaching God’s alleged real estate deals.
That’s when the Church stopped being the Body of Christ and became a cheerleader for unbelieving Israel.
That’s when salvation became race-based, the Gospel became divided, and the sheep became sedated with Scofield’s lies.

We’re not dealing with a “misunderstanding.”
We’re dealing with a full-blown false religion operating under the name of Christianity —
an Anti-Christ counterfeit where quoting Jesus makes you a heretic and denying Him makes you “chosen.”

This isn’t just infiltration.
It’s occupation.

And it’s time for the remnant to rise —
not to reclaim denominations, pulpits, or stained glass tombs —
but to wage war on this theological abomination,
to tear down every Scofield-erected altar,
and to call the captives out of Babylon before the fire falls.