rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
so the Body of Christ is firstfruits?
TRIBES?
What TRIBE are you?
we have always agreed he returns AFTER the tribulation.
I have NEVER said he doesn't
IS THE RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?
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TRIBES?
What TRIBE are you?
I have NEVER said he doesn't
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
we have always agreed he returns AFTER the tribulation.
I have NEVER said he doesn't
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
YES = Christ the firstfruits - AFTERWARDS = those (firstfruits) at His Coming = 1 Cor ch15
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.
That decision has already been made by God for me(and for you) = "Marvel not that I said you must be born-again..."
Good - now you are trusting the words of Christ instead of men.
OOPS!!!
You are not being truthful here as you have said that there are more then one "Coming" of the LORD
Shalom
PS - Come on up and let's go fishing = for men and for fins
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
No.
Because Christ is the firstfruits those Afterward are main harvest.
You can't have 2 firstfruits.
I just shake my head at what doctrine does to bible comprehension.
So now you are chosen out of Jewish tribes.
For 40 years of study I have always read and understood Jesus returns postrib.
I am sure most pretribbers believe that.
It is the rapture you guys shy away from.
...and can not reconcile.
BTW...you did not post any verses pointing to the church as firstfruits.
...because that is not at all biblical.
The Gospel of Christ
Active Member
You guys are splitting hairs over something the text already answers.
Let’s stick to what is written in 1 Corinthians 15:
“But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at His coming, those who belong to Him.” (1 Cor 15:23)
No mention of multiple comings.
No secret raptures.
No theological gymnastics.
One order. One return. One resurrection.
Now, as for the “firstfruits” label:
You're right — Christ alone is the firstfruits of the resurrection.
He is the prototype. The guarantee. The one who opened the grave.
But don’t confuse that with the broader harvest metaphor, where the Church — those who are in Christ — are gathered at His coming, not before.
“We who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep… and the dead in Christ will rise first.” — 1 Thess 4:15–16
So yes — the Church is the main harvest, and the dead in Christ are raised at His coming. Period.
Not seven years before. Not in phases.
At His coming.
As for being “chosen out of Jewish tribes”… come on.
There isn’t a single person on Earth today who can genetically prove they’re from ancient Israel’s tribes — not one.
“There is no Jew or Greek, slave or free… for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” — Galatians 3:28
“Not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.” — Romans 9:6
So unless you’re going to swab DNA and cross-reference it with a 3,000-year-old Levitical registry, maybe let’s stop pretending modern citizenship equals covenant identity.
You’re either in Christ — or you’re not.
Everything else is theater.
Let’s stick to what is written in 1 Corinthians 15:
“But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at His coming, those who belong to Him.” (1 Cor 15:23)
No mention of multiple comings.
No secret raptures.
No theological gymnastics.
One order. One return. One resurrection.
Now, as for the “firstfruits” label:
You're right — Christ alone is the firstfruits of the resurrection.
He is the prototype. The guarantee. The one who opened the grave.
But don’t confuse that with the broader harvest metaphor, where the Church — those who are in Christ — are gathered at His coming, not before.
“We who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep… and the dead in Christ will rise first.” — 1 Thess 4:15–16
So yes — the Church is the main harvest, and the dead in Christ are raised at His coming. Period.
Not seven years before. Not in phases.
At His coming.
As for being “chosen out of Jewish tribes”… come on.
There isn’t a single person on Earth today who can genetically prove they’re from ancient Israel’s tribes — not one.
“There is no Jew or Greek, slave or free… for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” — Galatians 3:28
“Not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.” — Romans 9:6
So unless you’re going to swab DNA and cross-reference it with a 3,000-year-old Levitical registry, maybe let’s stop pretending modern citizenship equals covenant identity.
You’re either in Christ — or you’re not.
Everything else is theater.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
1 Corinthians = written by the Holy Spirit thru the Apostle Paul does not agree with you.
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.
Which Great Tribulation are you referring to?
The Tribulation age of darkness where anti-Christ persecutes the church saints worldwide?
Or the Tribulation where GOD from Heaven pours out HIS wrath, plagues that will come upon the ungodly on earth?
Neither?
Revelation 20:
4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgement was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of GOD, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their forehead, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
The church saints did go through the Great Tribulation during the reign of anti-Christ for three and a half years.
They were raptured before the Great Tribulation wrath of GOD with plagues on the world.
Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ
There are two return of Christ for His people, the church and Israel.
First return in the clouds where church saints dead and living will be taken up.
Second return with His angels coming down to earth to defend Israel from all their enemies.
Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ
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The apostle Paul describes Jesus' first return, when he comes for his bride, the Church - 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (WEB):
(15) For this we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep.
(16) For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first,
(17) then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.
The first resurrection takes place when Jesus returns for the Church, at which point the Church is caught up to be with Jesus in the sky, and Jesus then takes them to their new homes in heaven - John 14:2-3 (WEB):
(2) In my Father’s house are many homes. If it weren’t so, I would have told you. I am going to prepare a place for you.
(3) If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and will receive you to myself; that where I am, you may be there also.
Therefore Jesus will have to return again for the second resurrection (of the rest of mankind), and to establish God's Kingdom on the earth.
God's wrath, and the wrath of the Lamb - Revelation 6:16 (WEB):
(16) They told the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb,
Revelation 20:4 (WEB):
(4) I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as didn’t worship the beast nor his image, and didn’t receive the mark on their forehead and on their hand. They lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
That is the resurrected Church (who are raptured before the great tribulation and therefore don't go through it).
(4) I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as didn’t worship the beast nor his image, and didn’t receive the mark on their forehead and on their hand. They lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
These are the great multitude of those who believed after the rapture, and who lived through the great tribulation - Revelation 7:9,14-15 (WEB):
(9) After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could count, out of every nation and of all tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands.
(14) I told him, “My lord, you know.” He said to me, “These are those who came out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes, and made them white in the Lamb’s blood.
(15) Therefore they are before the throne of God, they serve him day and night in his temple. He who sits on the throne will spread his tabernacle over them.
Revelation 20:4 (WEB):
(4) I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as didn’t worship the beast nor his image, and didn’t receive the mark on their forehead and on their hand. They lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
The "they" referred to can be either just the resurrected Christians, or those and the great multitude; most likely both will have a role in Jesus' ruling over God's Kingdom during the 1,000 years of Christ's reign.
The Gospel of Christ
Active Member
Respectfully, you’re not describing the Gospel — you’re parroting Scofield.
The Bible never says Christ is coming twice for two separate groups. There’s no “secret rapture” followed by a later return. That idea is absent from church history before the 1800s and has to be imported into the text through creative reinterpretation.
Jesus Himself said plainly:
“Immediately after the tribulation… they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds… and He will send out His angels to gather His elect.” — Matthew 24:29–31
Paul confirms it:
“The Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout… and the dead in Christ will rise first.” — 1 Thessalonians 4:16
Nothing secret. Nothing phased. One coming. One resurrection.
The “two returns” theory is man-made fiction. It exists solely to prop up a flawed theology that divides God's people into two separate groups — “Israel” and “the Church” — a division the New Testament never makes.
In fact, it explicitly rejects that division.
Paul says:
“There is no longer Jew or Gentile... for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” — Galatians 3:28
“It is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise.” — Romans 9:8
The true Israel is not defined by ethnicity, land, or bloodline — it’s defined by Christ.
Israel is the Church.
The Church is Israel.
Not a replacement — a fulfillment.
There is one body, one Shepherd, one Bride, one return, and one resurrection. Anything else is Scofield, not Scripture.
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David in NJ
Well-Known Member
3 Comings of the LORD does not exist anywhere in scripture as you claim.
The LORD does not swoop down for the Church (2nd Coming) and then come back with Her (3rd) Coming for Israel.
The Gospel of Christ
Active Member
You're conflating poetic comfort with prophetic sequence.
1 Thessalonians 4 does not describe a separate, secret “first return” — it describes the return of Christ, period. Paul uses apocalyptic language:
“The Lord Himself will descend... with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God.”
That’s not a quiet, invisible event — that’s Revelation 11-level cosmic drama.
There’s no mention of Jesus doing a U-turn back to heaven. It says we meet Him “in the air” — as He returns, not as He reverses course. This matches the ancient imagery of citizens going out to welcome a conquering King back into the city — not escaping the city altogether.
As for John 14:2–3 — Jesus says, “I will come again and receive you to Myself.” That’s a promise of union, not a flight schedule. It doesn’t say when, how many times, or anything about splitting resurrections into multiple categories.
You added that part.
Revelation 20, the only passage that explicitly describes two resurrections, says the first resurrection happens after the tribulation, when the martyrs who refused the mark are raised to reign with Christ.
That doesn’t fit your timeline.
No verse says Jesus comes once for the Church, then again for “Israel.” No verse says the Church lives in heaven while Israel lives on earth. That’s Dispensational fiction — not New Testament doctrine.
There is one return. One trumpet. One resurrection of the righteous.
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rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Rev 14 is the Jewish harvest to heaven.
Fordtfruits in heaven at Phoebe of revelation chapter 14. and then shortly after is the main Jewish harvest with Jesus sitting on a cloud.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
The scriptures testify different than your doctrine.
Rev 14:14 is neither the rapture of the church, nor is it the second coming of Rev 19.
I have asked tons of post tribbers to unpack revelation, 14 verse 14 and the 10 virgin parable. none of them have been able to unpack either one of them. It really surprises me that you can blatantly against scripture with no red flags.
The Gospel of Christ
Active Member
You guys can’t even agree on your own theory.
One of you says the Jews are defended on earth when Christ returns with His angels (i.e. stays on the ground).
The other says Revelation 14 is about Jews being harvested to heaven by Jesus sitting on a cloud.
So which is it?
Are Jews staying on earth and being defended by a second visible return?
Or are they being taken up into heaven in a Jewish rapture 2.0?
You’re proving exactly why the two-returns, two-resurrections, two-peoples theology collapses. It’s not consistent, not in the early church, and not in the Bible.
Revelation 14, is symbolic imagery about the final judgment — not a second harvest schedule for Jews. It doesn’t say “Jews are taken to heaven.” It says the earth is reaped, then judgment follows (Rev 14:19–20). That’s not a rapture — that’s wrath.
There is no “Church harvest” followed by a “Jewish harvest.”
There is one harvest — “the wheat and the tares” — gathered at the end of the age (Matthew 13:39–43). Jesus said it plainly.
All this splitting of comings, groups, and harvests is Scofieldian fiction — a man-made framework that twists Scripture and leads people into misleading blasphemy. Christ is not returning for two brides. God does not have two peoples. There is no secret timeline for ethnic Israel while the Church watches from the balcony.
This isn’t theology. It’s theological butchery.
The New Testament is clear:
One covenant.
One body.
One return.
One resurrection.
One judgment.
One Kingdom.
Anything else isn’t rightly dividing the Word — it’s dividing the Body of Christ.
One of you says the Jews are defended on earth when Christ returns with His angels (i.e. stays on the ground).
The other says Revelation 14 is about Jews being harvested to heaven by Jesus sitting on a cloud.
So which is it?
Are Jews staying on earth and being defended by a second visible return?
Or are they being taken up into heaven in a Jewish rapture 2.0?
You’re proving exactly why the two-returns, two-resurrections, two-peoples theology collapses. It’s not consistent, not in the early church, and not in the Bible.
Revelation 14, is symbolic imagery about the final judgment — not a second harvest schedule for Jews. It doesn’t say “Jews are taken to heaven.” It says the earth is reaped, then judgment follows (Rev 14:19–20). That’s not a rapture — that’s wrath.
There is no “Church harvest” followed by a “Jewish harvest.”
There is one harvest — “the wheat and the tares” — gathered at the end of the age (Matthew 13:39–43). Jesus said it plainly.
All this splitting of comings, groups, and harvests is Scofieldian fiction — a man-made framework that twists Scripture and leads people into misleading blasphemy. Christ is not returning for two brides. God does not have two peoples. There is no secret timeline for ethnic Israel while the Church watches from the balcony.
This isn’t theology. It’s theological butchery.
The New Testament is clear:
One covenant.
One body.
One return.
One resurrection.
One judgment.
One Kingdom.
Anything else isn’t rightly dividing the Word — it’s dividing the Body of Christ.
The Gospel of Christ
Active Member
You're confusing your system with Scripture.
Revelation 14:14 doesn’t support your timeline — and it certainly doesn’t describe a “Jewish rapture” or a mid-point secret event. The passage is a symbolic picture of final judgment, not a separate event squeezed between two comings.
“Behold, a white cloud, and seated on the cloud one like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head, and a sharp sickle in his hand...” — Revelation 14:14
This is harvest imagery straight from Matthew 13, where Jesus explains exactly what it means:
“The harvest is the end of the age... The Son of Man will send His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all causes of sin... Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father.” — Matthew 13:39–43
One harvest. One return. At the end.
You don’t get to split the harvest into Church vs. Israel, pre-trib vs. mid-trib vs. post-trib. That’s not exegesis — that’s theological surgery on a text that’s not broken.
As for the 10 virgins — Jesus makes the timing clear:
“At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here’s the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’” — Matthew 25:6
They all fall asleep. All of them wake up. Some go in. Some are shut out.
That’s not two stages — that’s one sudden arrival. No pre-warning. No partial rapture. No phases.
So no, Scripture does not testify differently than what I’ve said. What it does testify against is the Scofield fantasy you’ve been handed — a fantasy that never existed in the early Church, never appears in the Gospels, and has to be read into every passage you’re quoting.
If you're going to accuse others of "being blatantly against Scripture," make sure your system actually comes from Scripture — not a 19th-century prophecy chart.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Tons of believers "in Christ" have an edited , modified bible.
You yourself thrive on omissions and changes to the bible.
"Like manner" is changed
Rev14 is changed
Romans 11 is changed
"Before the flood " is changed
"All take the mark" is changed
"The innumerable number in heaven" is changed
"The 10 virgin parable"is changed
"The purpose of the trib" escapes all postribs
Tons of God's word traded cheaply for believing that dead ancients ,with limited illumination, void God's word.
Your pillar, cornerstone, foundation , and banner is dead church fathers.
The same false foundation and pathway of the catholic church.
Your deal is busted and exposed.
I also would be embarrassed to misrepresent God's word and be forced to play a losing hand to save face.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
That tells me you are a mill.
.
At the rapture, only the dead and Christ are raised.
So we have yet another totally messed up view, that God's word quite handily, and totally ,blows out of water.
Ahem...at the GWTJ the entire earth's population is raised from the dead
The Gospel of Christ
Active Member
You just listed a bunch of vague claims with no exegesis, no verses, and no coherence.
That’s not Bible study — that’s a temper tantrum.
Meanwhile, I gave you 1 Corinthians 15:23 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15–16, which clearly say:
“Each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at His coming, those who belong to Him.”
“We who are alive… will not precede those who have fallen asleep… the dead in Christ will rise first.”
Where’s the secret phase?
Where’s the 7-year gap?
Where’s the “tribulation leftovers” category?
It’s not there. You’re adding that with Scofield’s crayons.
Let’s talk about your foundation:
You base your entire theology on a 19th-century con man’s footnotes — literally a contracted lawyer with Rockefeller/Oxford ties who twisted Scripture to fit his Zionist fantasy — and then mock me for respecting the early Church that canonized the Bible you pretend to defend?
Newsflash:
The apostles weren’t dispensationalists.
The early Church wasn’t dispensationalist.
Jesus wasn’t a dispensationalist.
You can keep throwing a Scofield Study Bible at every verse that disproves you…
But until you can show me where Scripture actually teaches multiple resurrections for the saved, your whole system collapses.
You’re out here preaching a Scofield rapture like it came down on stone tablets — but not a single apostle, Church Father, or martyr ever heard of it. You had to wait 1,800 years for a Zionist-funded con man to “discover” it in a verse that never says it.
That’s not divine revelation — that’s historical amnesia dressed up as prophecy.
Jesus warned about false prophets — He just didn’t say they’d be wearing three-piece suits and printing study Bibles.
If your “blessed hope” wasn’t preached by Jesus, Paul, or the early Church, maybe it’s not hope — maybe it’s heresy.
