Your research is about 40 years too late. Many pre-trib beliefs have been discovered hundred of years before Darby was born. Several church fathers held to the imminent return of Christ.
IS THE RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?
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This passage is talking about the end of the Millennial Age and the beginning of eternity. It says that God will dwell "with men" (Revelation 21:3), or as the ISV translates it "among humans", and that God "will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God". It is referring to all the redeemed of mankind living on the earth, all those "found written in the book of life" (Revelation 20:15). The Cambridge Bible Notes says:
his people] The word is a plural: peoples, though used in modern English, at least as a Gallicism, is scarcely (see however Rev_10:11, Rev_17:15) admitted in the English of the A. V. It would not do to translate “His nations,” for in Hellenistic language, representing O. T. usage, “the nations” means Gentiles, and “the people” Israel. Here therefore the use of this word in the plural has a special significance: all nations shall be God’s people, in the sense that one nation only has been hitherto.
Later verses confirm that God shall dwell with all mankind - Revelation 21:23-27 (WEB):
(23) The city has no need for the sun, neither of the moon, to shine, for the very glory of God illuminated it, and its lamp is the Lamb.
(24) The nations will walk in its light. The kings of the earth bring the glory and honor of the nations into it.
(25) Its gates will in no way be shut by day (for there will be no night there),
(26) and they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it so that they may enter.
(27) There will in no way enter into it anything profane, or one who causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
2 Corinthians 11:2 (KJV):
(2) For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
Barnes' Notes on verse 2 says:
That I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ - The allusion here, according to Doddridge, is, to the custom among the Greeks “of having an officer whose business it was to educate and form young women, especially those of rank and figure, designed for marriage, and then to present them to those who were to be their husbands, and if this officer through negligence permitted them to be corrupted between the espousals and the consummation of the marriage, great blame would fall upon him.” Such a responsibility Paul felt. So anxious was he for the entire purity of that church which was to constitute “the bride, the Lamb’s wife;” so anxious that all who were connected with that church should be presented pure in heaven.
Whether we are the body or the bride of Christ (or both!), we will be dwelling with him. Jesus, our bridegroom, left us to prepare homes for us in his Father's house - John 14:2-3 (WEB):
(2) In my Father’s house are many homes. If it weren’t so, I would have told you. I am going to prepare a place for you.
(3) If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and will receive you to myself; that where I am, you may be there also.
The new Jerusalem, as it is called, is God's house (dwelling place), where Jesus has prepared homes for us - Revelation 21:2-3 (WEB)
(2) I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared like a bride adorned for her husband.
(3) I heard a loud voice out of heaven saying, “Behold, God’s dwelling is with people, and he will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.
Revelation 21:22(22) I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God, the Almighty, and the Lamb, are its temple.
I posted this maybe you missed it.................BUT besides the twelve apostles names in the wall there is also the twelve tribes of Israel.............[Rev 21:12 KJV] 12 And had a wall great and high, [and] had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are [the names] of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
If the city was for all nations why have the twelve tribes prominent in it?
The nations arent those who are God's people in Rev 21:3 the nations are spoken of in Rev 21:24-26
Rev 21:14 doesnt say it referrs to the body of Christ
You can think it does but I say thats a remote connection but I cant be dogmatic in saying its not
I dont see the body of Christ as being the bride because the bride is identified here [Rev 21:9-10 KJV] 9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Big Boy Johnson
Well-Known Member
Well you don't have to participate then.
The rest of us will be with the Lord forever and those not participating can go to that other place
The Gospel of Christ
Well-Known Member
Imminent return and pre-trib rapture are not the same thing.
The early Church expected persecution, martyrdom, and the Antichrist — not a secret escape before trouble.
No Church Father taught a split return of Christ or Christians vanishing before the tribulation.
That idea didn’t exist until Darby in the 1800s.
Scofield just packaged it for mass consumption.
JESUS CHRIST
“In this world you will have tribulation.”
— John 16:33
“He who endures to the end will be saved.”
— Matthew 24:13
“Immediately after the tribulation... He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect.”
— Matthew 24:29–31
Jesus taught plainly:
The Church will experience tribulation
The gathering (rapture) happens after it
His return is loud, visible, and final — not secret or split into phases
THE APOSTLES
PAUL
“Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him… that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed.”
— 2 Thessalonians 2:1–3
“At the last trumpet… the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.”
— 1 Corinthians 15:52
“The Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout… and the dead in Christ will rise first.”
— 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17
Paul taught:
The rapture is part of Christ’s final return
It happens after the Antichrist is revealed
It’s a global, loud, resurrection event — not a hidden vanishing
PETER
“Do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal that has come on you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you.”
— 1 Peter 4:12
“The day of the Lord will come like a thief… the heavens will disappear with a roar… everything will be laid bare.”
— 2 Peter 3:10
Peter expected suffering before Christ's return — not deliverance from it.
EARLY CHURCH FATHERS (100–400 AD)
IRENAEUS (c. 180 AD)
Against Heresies 5.29.1
“The Church shall flee into the wilderness for a time… to be nourished by God, as Elijah was… then shall the Antichrist reign for three and a half years.”
Taught tribulation, not escape
Saw the Church as present during the Antichrist’s rule
JUSTIN MARTYR (c. 155 AD)
Dialogue with Trypho, ch. 110
“Two advents of Christ have been announced: one in which He was pierced… and one in which He shall come with glory… when the man of apostasy [Antichrist], who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall dare to do unlawful deeds.”
Believed tribulation comes before Christ’s second advent
No mention of a pre-trib escape
TERTULLIAN (c. 200 AD)
On the Resurrection of the Flesh, ch. 25
“The souls of the martyrs wait for their number to be completed… at the end of the age, when the kingdom comes.”
Believed resurrection comes at the end, not before tribulation
Connected suffering with final reward
HIPPOLYTUS (c. 230 AD)
On Christ and Antichrist, ch. 61
“That the beast will wage war against the saints and overcome them for a time is clear… but the Lord shall come and destroy him.”
The Church is present during the tribulation
Christ destroys Antichrist at His visible return
CYPRIAN (c. 250 AD)
Treatises of Cyprian 7.25
“The day of affliction has begun… the Lord forewarned us that tribulation would come.”
Understood tribulation as part of the Christian life
Never taught escape from it
LACTANTIUS (c. 310 AD)
Divine Institutes 7.17
“The righteous will suffer many things at the hands of the unjust… but the Lord will come and deliver them when the measure of iniquity is full.”
Rapture comes at Christ’s return, not before suffering
NOT ONE apostle or Church Father ever taught:
A pre-tribulation rapture
A secret vanishing act
A split second coming
What they taught — what Jesus taught — is clear:
The Church will go through tribulation
The Antichrist will rise first
Christ returns once, visibly, at the end of it all
The dead will rise and the Church will be gathered — together — at His return
Imminent means no preceding signs take place before the Rapture. The Second Coming is preceded by hell on earth: the last half of the Tribulation.
The Rapture will be anything but a secret. The whole world will know it. The persecution and martyrdom are characteristics of the Tribulation.
There are many Church Fathers who saw the Rapture before the Tribulation.
Rufinus, Victorinus, and Tyconius, to name a few, all interpreted Revelation 4:4 as describing the church's presence in heaven shortly after the Rapture. This comment you make shows you are not familiar with recent prophecy scholars.
This does not refer to the prophesied Tribulation.
A Tribulation passage, not a Church Dispensation. Remember, Daniel told how long the Mosaic Dispensation would last, exactly 490 years. Christ died on the 483 year. There are 7 more years remaining for the Jewish Dispensation.
A Second Coming passage.
This is a mystery, which means it is not a reference to the Second Coming, which was taught in the OT.
Paul and John come to mind. Paul in 1 Thess 2, 2 Thess 2, Rev 3:10
Not a reference to the Second Coming since Christ doesn't come quickly at the Second Coming
Before the Church returns, John says the Bride is in heaven and has made herself ready.
Just so you know, the reason we differ on prophecy and probably many other doctrines is because I use the literal method of interpretation. That is also why I am a Dispensationist.
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Differences between the Rapture and the Second Coming.
Each number correspond to the same number in the other chart:
At the Rapture:
1. Christ comes FOR His own in the air
2. All believers are translated into new bodies
3. Christians are taken to the Father's House
4. There is no judgment on the earth
5. The Church will be in Heaven
6. It is an imminent occurrence
7. There are no signs preceding it
8. It affects believers only
9. It is a time of joy
10. it occurs before the day of Wrath
11. No mention of Satan
12. The Judgment Seat of Christ happens next
13. There is the marriage of the Lamb
14. Only Christ's own will see him
15. The Tribulation begins
At the Second Coming:
1. Christ comes WITH his own
2. No Translation of bodies
3. resurrected saints remain on earth
4. Christ judges the inhabitants of the earth
5. Christ sets up his kingdom on earth
6. It can not occur until the seven-year Trib period
7. The are numerous signs preceding it
8. It affects all humanity
9. It is a time of mourning
10. It occurs after the Tribulation
11. Satan is bound in abyss 1,000 years
12. No judgment seat of Christ
13. His bride descends with him to earth
14. Every eye will see him
15. The millennial reign of Christ begins
Each number correspond to the same number in the other chart:
At the Rapture:
1. Christ comes FOR His own in the air
2. All believers are translated into new bodies
3. Christians are taken to the Father's House
4. There is no judgment on the earth
5. The Church will be in Heaven
6. It is an imminent occurrence
7. There are no signs preceding it
8. It affects believers only
9. It is a time of joy
10. it occurs before the day of Wrath
11. No mention of Satan
12. The Judgment Seat of Christ happens next
13. There is the marriage of the Lamb
14. Only Christ's own will see him
15. The Tribulation begins
At the Second Coming:
1. Christ comes WITH his own
2. No Translation of bodies
3. resurrected saints remain on earth
4. Christ judges the inhabitants of the earth
5. Christ sets up his kingdom on earth
6. It can not occur until the seven-year Trib period
7. The are numerous signs preceding it
8. It affects all humanity
9. It is a time of mourning
10. It occurs after the Tribulation
11. Satan is bound in abyss 1,000 years
12. No judgment seat of Christ
13. His bride descends with him to earth
14. Every eye will see him
15. The millennial reign of Christ begins
Beacause Israel will be representatives of the heavenly Kingdom on the earth, through whose instrumentality the nations may enter into the
blessings of the Kingdom. All nations will know that our almighty God is the same God who is the God of Israel.
After God told Ezekiel that He would restore Israel in the end days, Ezekiel was given a vision of the new Jerusalem and temple, in which the gates of the city have the names of the 12 tribes on them - Ezekiel 37:21-28 (WEB):
(21) Say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord Yahweh: “Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, where they have gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land.
(22) I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. One king will be king to them all. They will no longer be two nations. They won’t be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.
(23) They won’t defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will save them out of all their dwelling places, in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. So they will be my people, and I will be their God.
(24) “‘“My servant David will be king over them. They all will have one shepherd. They will also walk in my ordinances, and observe my statutes, and do them.
(25) They will dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob my servant, in which your fathers lived. They will dwell therein, they, and their children, and their children’s children, forever. David my servant will be their prince forever.
(26) Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them. It will be an everlasting covenant with them. I will place them, multiply them, and will set my sanctuary among them forever more.
(27) My tent also will be with them. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
(28) The nations will know that I am Yahweh who sanctifies Israel, when my sanctuary is among them forever more.”’”
Ezekiel 48:31 (WEB):
(31) and the gates of the city shall be named after the tribes of Israel, three gates northward: the gate of Reuben, one; the gate of Judah, one; the gate of Levi, one.
...
Revelation 21:4 (WEB):
(4) He will wipe away every tear from their eyes. Death will be no more; neither will there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more. The first things have passed away.”
If the peoples referred to in verse 3 was referring to just Israelis, then verse 4 implies that no more death only applies to them too. I'm quite sure it is referring to all mankind, not just Israel.
1 Peter 2:9 (WEB):
(9) But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, that you may proclaim the excellence of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:
If Christians are to be priests in God's kingdom, where will they be performing their priestly duties? Surely it will be in the new Jerusalem, where they abide with Jesus?
Revelation 21:22 (WEB):
(22) I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God, the Almighty, and the Lamb, are its temple.
Where Jesus is is where we will be, as his bride.
1 Thessalonians 4:17 (WEB):
(17) then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.
Go back to this
I gave this verse..................[Rev 21:3 KJV] 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.
I said this identifies the New Jerusalem as being made up of believing Israel because it says "they shall be my people" which can only mean my people are Israel
Look at this verse................[Eze 37:27 KJV] 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people...........this verse is talking about the earthly Davidic kingdom and calls ISRAEL HIS PEOPLE.
Therefore Israel is the new Jerusalem
Revelation 21 is talking about the new heavens and earth and the new Jerusalem
Before that there is the millennial Davidic kingdom on earth.....in this kingdom there will be those mortal people saved from out of the Gentile nations (Matthew 25:31-46). They will die. As far as believing Israel that survives the tribulation, they will enter the kingdom but I dont know for sure if they will be resurrected or go in with mortal bodies.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Who are the ones taken.?
Exactly who?
Half of Earth population taken pre flood to what location?
Remember , I debunked the theory that the wicked are ALWAYS taken first.
Jesus Said first gather the wheat and put it in my barn, but the tares gather them and burn them in the fire.
The one taken of Luke and Matthew can not possibly be the wicked.
Those with that theory, are saying half of earth's population is wicked and half righteous.
100% impossible.
In The "one taken "in matthew we see About seven sentences later that Jesus tells the parable of the virgins ,and in that parable the righteous Are taken first.
In the flood, the righteous are gathered first
In Lot ,the same
In the tares and wheat ,the same
In the baby Jesus taken to egypt, the same.
In the virgins, the same
In the rapture the same
In Rev 14:14 the same
Those with that view, that the wicker are always taken first, are the ones that say there's only one coming.
They see the rapture at the white horses after the wrath.
As the actual rapture of first stelonia's four and that is totally ridiculous
Righteous gathered first over and over.
BTW, If the wicked are the ones taken as tares to be burned, then that setting is tge GWTJ and they are thrown into the lake of fire.
So that means That ridiculous theory that the ones taken are the wicked, could only be the great white throne judgement.
So that means they think, before the flood, we have the tares gathered to be burned at the great white throne judgment.
I can tell everybody right now. When you start changing that Bible, you're gonna have to change 50 things to go along with reckless doctrine.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Another Dynamic of that preflood gathering would be to look up the word taken in the Greek and then look up the word left in the Greek.
It 100 percent supports taken to a good place and left or abandoned, which would be bad.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Good Morning @Fred J
Help me out here please for i always seek truth from God's Mouth = the holy Scriptures
Please post where the Lord or the Apostles said some saints will be "left -behind"
Thank You Fred J
1 Peter 2:9 is written to Israel not us
We will not be priests Israel will
[Exo 19:5-6 KJV] 5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth [is] mine: 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These [are] the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
