IS THE RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?
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rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
What part of me reading " Before the flood" causes you deflection?
What does amil do with a gathering before the flood?
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Oh..so you spiritually explain away what you decide?
Who is left?
The spirits that aren't really there but are told to "get ready to stay"
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Rev 14: 14 has Jesus returning to harvest Jews with no sudden destruction.
Zero
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Not sure of your question
I believe the rapture is before the tribulation
The one taken and the other left passages arent the rapture.....these are about Christ's coming at the end of the tribulation
How can you believe Jesus returns a third time?
We read about the rapture that it's the second time
There is no 3rd time Jesus comes.
Theses are the rapture verses
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1 Thess 4
The Comfort of Christ’s Coming
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen [b]asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who [c]sleep in Jesus.15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
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He will come again a second time, there is nothing about He will come again a third time.
All eschatology in 1 and 2 Thessalonians is about a second coming, never a third.
Yet to believe in this pretrib rapture event, you must think a third time he is coming at the end to destroy Satan.
2 Thess 2 is the one and only return of Christ, Him coming a second time
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Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of [a]Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of [b]sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits [c]as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the [d]mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only [e]He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
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Since at this coming Christ destroys the evil creature, this which people consider antichrist man of sin, then it must by consistency be after the tribulation.
Unless you force a third coming of Christ, you have to agree with me on this, and scripture too.
Don't live in a fantasy world, hold to what scripture teaches us.
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Peace be with you David, you're humble as one of Abraham's seed in Christ, keep up the good fruit and GOD bless in Jesus name.
May GOD the FATHER of our Lord Jesus Christ through the Holy Ghost lead you into the full truth, and am merely an unworthy servant serving that truth.
Some things are not written specifically in the scripture, like example, Jesus did not say specifically, 'I am God worship Me.'
But according to the wisdom given us and to the context of the scripture, we discern that Jesus is indeed God and worshipped by His disciple.
So in regards the rapture, one is taken and the other left behind, is also not specifically written in the scripture.
Nevertheless, we could point out two sayings of Jesus in the Gospel, about the 'Ten Virgins' (Matthew 25:1-12).
And, 'Two be in the field' or 'Two women shall be grinding at the mill' (Matthew 24:40&41).
According to the wisdom given us, Jesus specifically addressing this to His virgin bride, the church, and not between believer and unbeliever.
When He speaks about 'virgins', meaning, believers who are washed clean and have not defiled themselves until His return. (Besides 'non virgins', unbelievers who've not been washed clean and are defiled seed of Adam and Eve as sinners)
While the other He speaks about two 'women', meaning, scripturally is related to 'wisdom' or 'wise', as also 'Proverbs' is referred to as 'she'.
To sum up, Jesus refers to His church or believers, between the wise and unwise 'virgins' or 'women'.
For example, based on the parable about the 'ten virgins', basically only the church or believers will go out to meet the Lord besides unbelievers.
Apparently the 'ten virgins'(believers) went forth to meet their 'groom'(Christ), but unfortunately on arrival He was a little 'late', and the virgins fell asleep.
All of them had lamps and enough oil to keep the light burning for His expected return, as any true church or believers would.
But, only five wise virgins (only part of the wise church or believers) wisely expected His little late arrival, having extra vessel of oil for their lamp.
Now when the 'ten' were awaken (by the angels) that He's come, they had to first check and trim their lamps.
To keep it lit and add oil for a little more journey ahead, since they're about to further go out to meet Him.
As a result, five unwise virgin believer or church did not keep extra supply of oil to keep their lamp lit whilst expecting not His late arrival.
While the other five wise believer or church did keep extra vessel and supply of oil to keep their lamp lit whilst expecting His late arrival.
These sayings of Jesus is addressed to His church or believers, in other words, His return will be like a thief's coming in the night unexpected.
And the church or believers by His sayings and signs in the New Testament are to distinguish themselves, besides partially will be wise or unwise.
It is the same with, two in the field and two women grinding in the mill, example, believers laboring in the field and believers laboring in the church.
This is the best am able to present in regards, one will be taken and the other will be left behind.
For the benefit of the doubt, if these sayings is referring to believers and unbelievers, i strongly doubt it.
Shalom in the name of Lord Jesus Christ
I believe Peter's letter was written to Christians, whether they were formerly Jews or gentiles ("Because all of you are one in the Messiah Jesus, a person is no longer a Jew or a Greek, a slave or a free person, a male or a female", Galatians 3:28, ISV):
1 Peter 1:1-3 (ISV):
(1) From: Peter, an apostle of Jesus, the Messiah. To: The exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
(2) the people chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father through the sanctifying action of the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus, the Messiah, and to be sprinkled with his blood. May grace and peace be yours in abundance!
(3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus, the Messiah! Because of his great mercy he has granted us a new birth, resulting in an immortal hope through the resurrection of Jesus, the Messiah, from the dead
1 Peter 5:14 (WEB):
(14) Greet one another with a kiss of love. Peace be to you all who are in Christ Jesus. Amen.
Israel were initially called to be a nation of priests, but they failed in that (the condition was "if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant", but they failed to do that). The priests in God's Kingdom will be Christians, with Jesus our High Priest. Israel was not called to be a nation of kings and priests, that only applies to Christians - 1 Peter 2:9-10 (WEB):
(9) But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, that you may proclaim the excellence of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:
(10) who in time past were no people, but now are God’s people, who had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
Revelation 20:6 (WEB):
(6) Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over these, the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with him one thousand years.
Hebrews 3:1 (WEB):
(1) Therefore, holy brothers, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Jesus;
Hebrews 5:10 (WEB):(10) named by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek.
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Peter never said we are all one, Paul did
Peter tells you in v1 who he is writing to.......Jews scattered in the persecution
You are mistakenly applying what is directed to Israel to the church the body of ChristIsrael were initially called to be a nation of priests, but they failed in that (the condition was "if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant", but they failed to do that). The priests in God's Kingdom will be Christians, with Jesus our High Priest. Israel was not called to be a nation of kings and priests, that only applies to Christians - 1 Peter 2:9-10 (WEB):
(9) But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, that you may proclaim the excellence of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light10) who in time past were no people, but now are God’s people, who had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
Revelation 20:6 (WEB):
(6) Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over these, the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with him one thousand years.
Hebrews 3:1 (WEB):
(1) Therefore, holy brothers, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Jesus;Hebrews 5:10 (WEB):
(10) named by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek.
Jesus redeemed Israel's transgressions under the first covenant (Hebrews 9:15)
God will make a new covenant with Israel and cause them to keep his statutes (Ezekiel 36:27)
So are you saying Paul was wrong, or that Peter was not writing to Christians about our Christian faith?
There are many verses which imply that he was writing to Christians. How about this verse:
1 Peter 4:16 (WEB):
(16) But if one of you suffers for being a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God in this matter.
I am saying you ascribed Galatians 3:28 to those Peter wrote to.....you are saying he wrote to Christians made of Jews and Gentiles who now were made one.......You cant pull what Paul says about the body of Christ and apply it to Peter's letter.....Peter wrote to the believing remnant of Israel church which is not the body of Christ
You associate those with amil. You know that well enough from all the other discussions. They do prove amil in the sense there are no survivors unsaved when Christ returns. Premil believes there are unsaved people not destroyed at Christ's coming.
The believing remnant of Israel were in Christ
Calling the readers priests and a holy nation identifies them as Israel
Paul wrote 2 Corinthians 1:19 (WEB):
(19) For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, by me, Silvanus, and Timothy, was not “Yes and no,” but in him is “Yes.”
And Peter wrote, 1 Peter 5:12 (WEB):
(12) Through Silvanus, our faithful brother, as I consider him, I have written to you briefly, exhorting, and testifying that this is the true grace of God in which you stand.
So Peter was confirming in his letter that the Gospel that was preached to them, by Silvanus, was the true Gospel, i.e. Peter was writing to Christians, and Christians are members of the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12:12,27 (WEB):
(12) For as the body is one, and has many members, and all the members of the body, being many, are one body; so also is Christ.
(27) Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.
The Cambridge Bible Notes says of 1 Peter 5:12:
testifying that this is the true grace of God wherein ye stand] The words have a special significance as connected with the mission of Silvanus. The great Apostle of the Circumcision, writing to the Churches that had been mainly planted and taught by the Apostle of the Gentiles, bears his full testimony that the “grace” by which they “stand” is no counterfeit, but in very deed a reality. Now, as when he and John and James the brother of the Lord gave to Paul and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship (Gal_2:9), he recognises “the grace of God” that had been given to them and through them. The attestation thus given of unbroken harmony stands, it need hardly be said, in singular contrast with the position of antagonism to St Paul and his teaching ascribed to St Peter in the Clementine Homilies and Recognitions, which represent the later workings of the Judaizing party.
There is no division of the body of Christ, we are all equal in Christ. Remember Galatians 3:28 (WEB):
(28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Christian is not defined in scripture.......it is arbitrary to say it is both Jew and Gentile believers
They were called Christians at Antioch...........the church was established by the scattered believing remnant who were escaping persecution
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
THANK YOU Brother
i will 'chew the cud' on this today as i do not want to be hasty and puffed up in my own understanding.
Allow a little time as i fill UP on Anointing Oil and allow the Holy Spirit to direct me thru scripture(you as well).
Shalom
