IS THE RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?

[rebuilder 454]

Wait till they get wind of "Jesus preached to those that died in the flood"

Then Jesus will really be a heretic for sure.

Lol

 

[keithr]

Here is a few out of over 20 verses in direct conflict with your understanding.

Calling somebody a hypocrite is not calling them names or deliberately insulting them, it's just plainly telling them what they are (a dictionary definition is "A person who pretends to be what he or she is not; specif., one who pretends to be pious, virtuous, etc. without really being so").

Matt 12
34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Matthew 12:33-34 (WEB):

(33) “Either make the tree good, and its fruit good, or make the tree corrupt, and its fruit corrupt; for the tree is known by its fruit.​

(34) You offspring of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.​

Again, calling the Pharisees the "offspring of vipers" was simply Jesus firmly and bluntly pointing out that they were corrupt and evil. As Barnes' Notes says:

O generation of vipers! - Christ here applies the argument which he had suggested in the previous verse. They were a wicked race; like poisonous reptiles, with a corrupt and evil nature. They could not be expected to speak good things - that is, to speak favorably of him and his works. As the bad fruit of a tree was the proper effect of its “nature,” so were their words about him and his works the proper effect of their nature. The “abundance” or fullness of the “heart” produced the words of the lips. “Vipers” are a poisonous kind of serpents, not often a yard long, and about an inch thick, having a flat head. The males have two large teeth, through which a most deadly poison is thrown into the wound made by the bite. They are an emblem of malignity and mischief. These were strong expressions to be used by the meek and lowly Jesus; but they were not the effect of anger and malice; they were a declaration of the true character of the people with whom he was conversing - a declaration most justly deserved.​

You coddle a man that is ignorant of his Bible, and calls me a heretic while he stands ignorantly "correcting" me.
He refuses to investigate the "paradise taken to heaven" dynamic, and when I push back at his rank meanness, you come along and defend the lies.

My intention is only to share the truth, to the best of my knowledge and ability. None of us can be right all the time and know everything, and we can all learn something from others sometimes. I just happen to agree that none of the patriarchs came out of their graves just after Jesus' death, for the reasons I mentioned. I just shared that reasoning to try and help others understand the scriptues better. I am not trying to pick sides and say that everything one says is right or wrong. I don't care who is right or wrong, I'm just interested in understanding God's word in the Bible, and I try to join in the discussions with a polite, respectful and friendly manner.

 

[keithr]

David said " you will not leave my soul in sheole"
Referring to his revelation on paradise.

David's body has decayed. Peter explained that David was prophetically referring to the coming Messiah - Acts 2:25-32 (WEB):

(25) For David says concerning him, ‘I saw the Lord always before my face, For he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved.​

(26) Therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced. Moreover my flesh also will dwell in hope;​

(27) because you will not leave my soul in Hades, neither will you allow your Holy One to see decay.​

(28) You made known to me the ways of life. You will make me full of gladness with your presence.’​

(29) “Brothers, I may tell you freely of the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.​

(30) Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, he would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,​

(31) he foreseeing this spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that his soul wasn’t left in Hades, and his flesh didn’t see decay.​

(32) This Jesus God raised up, to which we all are witnesses.​

Look, it WAS NOT JUST the patriarchs in paradise.

Nobody is in paradise. The dead are in their graves - in sheol/hades. Everybody remains there until they are resurrected, and the first resurrection (after Jesus) has not happened yet.

The REASON for paradise was because those patriachs ( patriarchs meaning those that died in faith BEFORE US. They are patriarchs using the term losely) had DIED IN FAITH. JESUS HAD NOT yet been sacrificed.
They were not in heaven, because the PAYMENT HAD NOT BEEN MADE YET.
Jesus went to paradise, preached the gospel, raised them from the dead, and TOOK THEM TO HEAVEN.

The only place that Jesus is said to have gone and preached after his death is not paradise but a prison - 1 Peter 3:18-20 (WEB):

(18) Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring you to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;​

(19) in which he also went and preached to the spirits in prison,​

(20) who before were disobedient, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, while the ship was being built. In it, few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.​

Those spirits were not humans, they were the fallen angels, as Peter explained earlier in his letter, and they are not in sheol (nor paradise) but another place - 2 Peter 2:4 (WEB):

(4) For if God didn’t spare angels when they sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus, and committed them to pits of darkness to be reserved for judgment;​

This was confirmed by Judes - Jude 1:6 (WEB):

(6) Angels who didn’t keep their first domain, but deserted their own dwelling place, he has kept in everlasting bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day.​

That study is unbelievably basic.
WE learned this back in the 70's.

Maybe you were not taught the truth about that!

 

[Fred J]

I have to agree. The word patriarch is only used four times in the bible:

Acts 2:29 “Brothers, I may tell you freely of the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
Acts 7:8 He gave him the covenant of circumcision. So Abraham became the father of Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day. Isaac became the father of Jacob, and Jacob became the father of the twelve patriarchs.
Acts 7:9 “The patriarchs, moved with jealousy against Joseph, sold him into Egypt. God was with him,
Hebrews 7:4 Now consider how great this man was, to whom even Abraham, the patriarch, gave a tenth out of the best plunder.

The Greek word patriarches means (from the Online Bible Greek Lexicon):

1) patriarch, founder of a tribe, progenitor​

1a) of the twelve sons of Jacob, founders of the tribes of Israel​

1b) of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob​

Easton's Revised Bible Dictionary says:

A name employed in the New Testament with reference to Abraham (Heb 7:4) the sons of Jacob (Acts 7:8,9) and to David (Acts 2:29). This name is generally applied to the progenitors of families or "heads of the fathers" (Joshua 14:1) mentioned in Scripture, and they are spoken of as antediluvian (from Adam to Noah) and post-diluvian (from Noah to Jacob) patriachs. But the expression "the patriarch," by way of eminence, is applied to the twelve sons of Jacob, or to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.​

I don't think that any of those saints that rose from their graves after Jesus' death could have been Old Testament patriarchs, because:

(a) Matthew 27:52-53 (WEB):

(52) The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;​

(53) and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many.​

If these raised people were patriarchs and they appeared to, and presumably spoke to, many people, then surely there would be some recorded historical documents stating who they were. Also Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Israel) were buried in Hebron, not Jerusalem, Joseph was buried in Shechem, a city in the northern West Bank, and the twelve sons of Israel were buried in Shechem or other places, but not in Jerusalem, so none of the patriarchs could have been of those that came out of tombs in Jerusalem.​

(b) Paul wrote in Hebrews 11, speaking of the patriarchs and other Old Testament saints, says that they would not receive their promised reward and not be made perfect before the Church has been made perfect first - Hebrews 11:39-40 (WEB):

(39) These all, having had testimony given to them through their faith, didn’t receive the promise,​

(40) God having provided some better thing concerning us, so that apart from us they should not be made perfect.​

Therefore none of the patriarchs could be resurrected before the church is resurrected in the first resurrection.​

​

However, none of the saints that rose from their graves mentioned in Matthew 27 were resurrected, they were just restored to human life and then died again later, just like Lazarus, so maybe this point doesn't prove they were not patriarchs!​

Bravo Keithr!

May GOD the FATHER of our Lord Jesus Christ help me to keep a copy of what you've wrote in my mind.

Let GOD be the truth and man a liar, we want GOD to win and man to lose, and that's the beginning of wisdom.

GOD desire not to punish but desire people repent from their sins.

Beloved, choose a trusted brethren, share each other's sins and pray for one another.

'Lawlessness shall increase and people will be going to and fro, haughty, lover of themselves, unpeaceable etc.

This coming to pass sign given by our Lord Jesus Christ, can be very challenging for us and for our faith.

Jesus said, 'Pray to GOD that HE helps us escape tribulation.'

We're not doing this for reputation or recognition, but for the word of GOD and for HIS lambs and sheep.

The Holy Bible is an amazing and delightful book, to HIS children, am not worthy, HE reveals all the mysteries and hidden mysteries within. (2Timothy3:16&17)

But to those who are not HIS children, HE reveals the book to be 'folly' and 'corrupted'.

Keep up the good fight for the Kingdom of GOD and for HIS lambs and sheep.

Shalom in the name of Adonai Yeshua

 

[Fred J]

Wait till they get wind of "Jesus preached to those that died in the flood"

Readers, do you believe that, 'Jesus preached to those(souls) that died in the flood'??

1 Peter 3:
19. By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of GOD waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Genesis 6:
2. That the sons of GOD saw the daughters of men that they were fair and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3. And the Lord said, My Spirit(Holy Ghost) shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.
4. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of GOD came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Hebrews 1:
13. But to which of the angels said HE at any time, Sit on MY right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14. Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Therefore, aren't they the sons of GOD/angels/spirits which were disobedient in the days of Noah, in prison??

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ.