IS THE RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?

[rebuilder 454]

Wait till they get wind of "Jesus preached to those that died in the flood"

Then Jesus will really be a heretic for sure.

Lol

 

[keithr]

Here is a few out of over 20 verses in direct conflict with your understanding.

Calling somebody a hypocrite is not calling them names or deliberately insulting them, it's just plainly telling them what they are (a dictionary definition is "A person who pretends to be what he or she is not; specif., one who pretends to be pious, virtuous, etc. without really being so").

Matt 12
34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Matthew 12:33-34 (WEB):

(33) “Either make the tree good, and its fruit good, or make the tree corrupt, and its fruit corrupt; for the tree is known by its fruit.​

(34) You offspring of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.​

Again, calling the Pharisees the "offspring of vipers" was simply Jesus firmly and bluntly pointing out that they were corrupt and evil. As Barnes' Notes says:

O generation of vipers! - Christ here applies the argument which he had suggested in the previous verse. They were a wicked race; like poisonous reptiles, with a corrupt and evil nature. They could not be expected to speak good things - that is, to speak favorably of him and his works. As the bad fruit of a tree was the proper effect of its “nature,” so were their words about him and his works the proper effect of their nature. The “abundance” or fullness of the “heart” produced the words of the lips. “Vipers” are a poisonous kind of serpents, not often a yard long, and about an inch thick, having a flat head. The males have two large teeth, through which a most deadly poison is thrown into the wound made by the bite. They are an emblem of malignity and mischief. These were strong expressions to be used by the meek and lowly Jesus; but they were not the effect of anger and malice; they were a declaration of the true character of the people with whom he was conversing - a declaration most justly deserved.​

You coddle a man that is ignorant of his Bible, and calls me a heretic while he stands ignorantly "correcting" me.
He refuses to investigate the "paradise taken to heaven" dynamic, and when I push back at his rank meanness, you come along and defend the lies.

My intention is only to share the truth, to the best of my knowledge and ability. None of us can be right all the time and know everything, and we can all learn something from others sometimes. I just happen to agree that none of the patriarchs came out of their graves just after Jesus' death, for the reasons I mentioned. I just shared that reasoning to try and help others understand the scriptues better. I am not trying to pick sides and say that everything one says is right or wrong. I don't care who is right or wrong, I'm just interested in understanding God's word in the Bible, and I try to join in the discussions with a polite, respectful and friendly manner.

 

[keithr]

David said " you will not leave my soul in sheole"
Referring to his revelation on paradise.

David's body has decayed. Peter explained that David was prophetically referring to the coming Messiah - Acts 2:25-32 (WEB):

(25) For David says concerning him, ‘I saw the Lord always before my face, For he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved.​

(26) Therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced. Moreover my flesh also will dwell in hope;​

(27) because you will not leave my soul in Hades, neither will you allow your Holy One to see decay.​

(28) You made known to me the ways of life. You will make me full of gladness with your presence.’​

(29) “Brothers, I may tell you freely of the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.​

(30) Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, he would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,​

(31) he foreseeing this spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that his soul wasn’t left in Hades, and his flesh didn’t see decay.​

(32) This Jesus God raised up, to which we all are witnesses.​

Look, it WAS NOT JUST the patriarchs in paradise.

Nobody is in paradise. The dead are in their graves - in sheol/hades. Everybody remains there until they are resurrected, and the first resurrection (after Jesus) has not happened yet.

The REASON for paradise was because those patriachs ( patriarchs meaning those that died in faith BEFORE US. They are patriarchs using the term losely) had DIED IN FAITH. JESUS HAD NOT yet been sacrificed.
They were not in heaven, because the PAYMENT HAD NOT BEEN MADE YET.
Jesus went to paradise, preached the gospel, raised them from the dead, and TOOK THEM TO HEAVEN.

The only place that Jesus is said to have gone and preached after his death is not paradise but a prison - 1 Peter 3:18-20 (WEB):

(18) Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring you to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;​

(19) in which he also went and preached to the spirits in prison,​

(20) who before were disobedient, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, while the ship was being built. In it, few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.​

Those spirits were not humans, they were the fallen angels, as Peter explained earlier in his letter, and they are not in sheol (nor paradise) but another place - 2 Peter 2:4 (WEB):

(4) For if God didn’t spare angels when they sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus, and committed them to pits of darkness to be reserved for judgment;​

This was confirmed by Judes - Jude 1:6 (WEB):

(6) Angels who didn’t keep their first domain, but deserted their own dwelling place, he has kept in everlasting bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day.​

That study is unbelievably basic.
WE learned this back in the 70's.

Maybe you were not taught the truth about that!

 

[Fred J]

I have to agree. The word patriarch is only used four times in the bible:

Acts 2:29 “Brothers, I may tell you freely of the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
Acts 7:8 He gave him the covenant of circumcision. So Abraham became the father of Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day. Isaac became the father of Jacob, and Jacob became the father of the twelve patriarchs.
Acts 7:9 “The patriarchs, moved with jealousy against Joseph, sold him into Egypt. God was with him,
Hebrews 7:4 Now consider how great this man was, to whom even Abraham, the patriarch, gave a tenth out of the best plunder.

The Greek word patriarches means (from the Online Bible Greek Lexicon):

1) patriarch, founder of a tribe, progenitor​

1a) of the twelve sons of Jacob, founders of the tribes of Israel​

1b) of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob​

Easton's Revised Bible Dictionary says:

A name employed in the New Testament with reference to Abraham (Heb 7:4) the sons of Jacob (Acts 7:8,9) and to David (Acts 2:29). This name is generally applied to the progenitors of families or "heads of the fathers" (Joshua 14:1) mentioned in Scripture, and they are spoken of as antediluvian (from Adam to Noah) and post-diluvian (from Noah to Jacob) patriachs. But the expression "the patriarch," by way of eminence, is applied to the twelve sons of Jacob, or to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.​

I don't think that any of those saints that rose from their graves after Jesus' death could have been Old Testament patriarchs, because:

(a) Matthew 27:52-53 (WEB):

(52) The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;​

(53) and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many.​

If these raised people were patriarchs and they appeared to, and presumably spoke to, many people, then surely there would be some recorded historical documents stating who they were. Also Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Israel) were buried in Hebron, not Jerusalem, Joseph was buried in Shechem, a city in the northern West Bank, and the twelve sons of Israel were buried in Shechem or other places, but not in Jerusalem, so none of the patriarchs could have been of those that came out of tombs in Jerusalem.​

(b) Paul wrote in Hebrews 11, speaking of the patriarchs and other Old Testament saints, says that they would not receive their promised reward and not be made perfect before the Church has been made perfect first - Hebrews 11:39-40 (WEB):

(39) These all, having had testimony given to them through their faith, didn’t receive the promise,​

(40) God having provided some better thing concerning us, so that apart from us they should not be made perfect.​

Therefore none of the patriarchs could be resurrected before the church is resurrected in the first resurrection.​

​

However, none of the saints that rose from their graves mentioned in Matthew 27 were resurrected, they were just restored to human life and then died again later, just like Lazarus, so maybe this point doesn't prove they were not patriarchs!​

Bravo Keithr!

May GOD the FATHER of our Lord Jesus Christ help me to keep a copy of what you've wrote in my mind.

Let GOD be the truth and man a liar, we want GOD to win and man to lose, and that's the beginning of wisdom.

GOD desire not to punish but desire people repent from their sins.

Beloved, choose a trusted brethren, share each other's sins and pray for one another.

'Lawlessness shall increase and people will be going to and fro, haughty, lover of themselves, unpeaceable etc.

This coming to pass sign given by our Lord Jesus Christ, can be very challenging for us and for our faith.

Jesus said, 'Pray to GOD that HE helps us escape tribulation.'

We're not doing this for reputation or recognition, but for the word of GOD and for HIS lambs and sheep.

The Holy Bible is an amazing and delightful book, to HIS children, am not worthy, HE reveals all the mysteries and hidden mysteries within. (2Timothy3:16&17)

But to those who are not HIS children, HE reveals the book to be 'folly' and 'corrupted'.

Keep up the good fight for the Kingdom of GOD and for HIS lambs and sheep.

Shalom in the name of Adonai Yeshua

 

[Fred J]

Wait till they get wind of "Jesus preached to those that died in the flood"

Readers, do you believe that, 'Jesus preached to those(souls) that died in the flood'??

1 Peter 3:
19. By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of GOD waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Genesis 6:
2. That the sons of GOD saw the daughters of men that they were fair and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3. And the Lord said, My Spirit(Holy Ghost) shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.
4. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of GOD came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Hebrews 1:
13. But to which of the angels said HE at any time, Sit on MY right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14. Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Therefore, aren't they the sons of GOD/angels/spirits which were disobedient in the days of Noah, in prison??

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ.

 

[Fred J]

But 'rebuilder 454' disputes and quoted, that the patriarchs who were in paradise under the earth, are FIRSTFRUIT'S' together with Jesus in the resurrection??

The FIRSTFRUITS ARE Jesus and the patriarchs who were in paradise under the earth.

Looks like readers are finding difficulty to straighten this mysterious claim of rebuilder 454.

His claim corresponds with those rose from their grave as Christ resurrected on the third day.

Therefore this debunks and rule out the scripture that reads, Christ is the firstfruit/firstborn from the dead and none other?? (Colossians 1:18)

No!!

Always GOD is the truth and man a liar, and a heretic who would preach another gospel besides the one the Apostles preached and is written.

Matthew 27:
53. And came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Therefore to conclude, those who came out of their graves are 'no firstfruits'.

1 John 4:
5. They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
6. We are of GOD: he that knoweth GOD heareth us; he that is not of GOD heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

 

[keithr]

QUOTE
"""However, none of the saints that rose from their graves mentioned in Matthew 27 were resurrected, they were just restored to human life and then died again later, just like Lazarus, so maybe this point doesn't prove they were not patriarchs!"""

It is bad you believe that.

Can you be precise - what is bad? That I believe they died again? Well there is nobody living today that is nearly 2,000 years old, so I'm sure they did die!

Or were you referring to Paul's point that the patriarchs and other Old Testament saints would not receive their promised reward and not be made perfect before the Church has been made perfect first? That requires a longer explanation!

It takes all of the merit of Jesus' sacrifice to redeem even just one man, so all of the merit is required to redeem all Christians. But Christians are under a covenant of sacrifice, following in Jesus' footsteps, and they must sacrifice their lives too, as Jesus did, which is why all Christians will die, even after they have been redeemed. It is only after the completed Church have all died (at the first resurrection and rapture) that the merit of Jesus' sacrifice can be returned in full and then applied to the rest of mankind. That is why nobody can be redeemed and made perfect until after the first resurrection of the Church.

Romans 12:1 (WEB):

(1) Therefore I urge you, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service.​

Psalms 50:5 (WEB):

5) “Gather my saints together to me, those who have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.”​

Hebrews 11:39-40 (WEB):

(39) These all {faithful people in Old Testament times}, having had testimony given to them through their faith, didn’t receive the promise,​

(40) God having provided some better thing concerning us, so that apart from us they should not be made perfect.​

There were two sacrifices in the Old Testament types, made on the Day of Atonement - a bull, representing the sacrifice of Jesus, and a goat, representing the sacrifice of the body members of Christ (Christians). On that day the High Priest would provide a young bullock as a sin offering, and the people of Israel would provide two young goats for a sin offering. The High Priest would sacrifice the bullock for himself and for his household. The death of the bullock typified the death of Jesus, who offered up himself as a sin offering. Jesus was both the anointed High Priest of God and the sacrifice. In the type the High Priest applies the merit of his sacrifice (by sprinkling the blood of the bullock on the mercy seat) for himself and his household as atonement for sins, where he himself represented Jesus and his household (the tribe of Levi - priests and servants of the priests) represented the Church (priests) and the Great Multitude of believers who come out of the Great Tribulation (servants of the priests). The name Levi means “joined to” (Genesis 29:34), just as the Church will be joined to Jesus as his bride.

In the antitype the merit of Jesus’ sacrifice, his own blood, is applied to the believers in Jesus, who will become the antitypical Royal Priesthood (the Church) and servants of the “household of faith”. Note that the whole merit of Jesus’ sacrifice is applied to the believers in Christ only – it is not applied to the rest of the world. Jesus’ sacrifice was a ransom for all, but it has not yet been applied to all - “Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time” (1 Timothy 2:6).

After the priest sacrificed the bullock he then sacrificed one of the goats in the same way – the bullock and the goat were treated alike, with the blood of the goat also being sprinkled on the mercy seat. Note that these are two distinct sin-offering sacrifices – the bullock, supplied by the priest, and the goat, supplied by the people. In the antitype during this Gospel Age there are also two sin-offerings – Jesus and his Church, his Body. The bullock was sacrificed as a sin offering for the priest and his household, whereas the goat was sacrificed as a sin offering for the people. The bullock represented Jesus’ sacrifice of his own life, whereas the goat represents the sacrifice of the Church – the sacrifice of our lives. The merit of Jesus’ sacrifice has been applied to the Church (the antitypical Royal Priesthood and household of faith), and the Church must now follow Jesus’ example and sacrifice their lives also. This is the Covenant of Sacrifice that we make when we become baptised into Jesus’ death. We have had Jesus’ sacrificial merit applied to us, so that our sins are atoned for and we are justified and entitled to eternal life as perfect humans. However, we only receive this justification on condition that we covenant to sacrifice that right to life, just as our Lord Jesus sacrificed his right to eternal life as a human. In the type the sacrifice of the goat was for the people (the Israelites), and in the antitype the sacrifice of the Church’s right to human life is a sacrifice for the people - the rest of humankind.

The whole merit of Jesus’ sacrifice was applied to the Church, so the Church must sacrifice their lives in order that the merit may be returned and applied to the rest of mankind. This is an ongoing process during the Gospel Age. At the end of the Gospel Age all of the merit of Jesus’ sacrifice will have been returned so that it can then be applied to the rest of mankind. The merit of Jesus’ sacrifice is appropriated to the Church, the elect, in order that we can have the privilege of joining our Lord Jesus as his “members”, to “become the sons of God” (John 1:12) and so that we will be entitled to be sharers in Jesus’ inheritance. As sharers of his sacrifice we enable his merit to be passed on to natural Israel and the world through the New Covenant.

Hence Paul wrote of the faithful Old Testament Israelites, “And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect” (Hebrews 11:39-40). He is saying that the faithful Old Testament Israelites would receive a “better resurrection” (verse 35) as a result of their faithfulness, that is they would be resurrected as perfect human beings immediately, rather than being raised still imperfect and then having to be restored to perfection during Christ’s Millennial Kingdom. However, they, and the rest of mankind, will have to wait until all of the Church has completed their sacrifice before Jesus’ sacrificial merit can be applied to them and they can be resurrected.

The apostle Paul, when speaking of the animal sacrifices and the New Covenant, said, “It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these” (Hebrews 9:23). These “better sacrifices” are the sacrifice of Jesus, the Christ Head, and the members of his Church, the Christ Body. The bullock and goat were the only animal sacrifices that were burnt outside of the camp (symbolising rejection by the world), hence Paul said, “Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach” (Hebrews 13:12-13).

Note that two goats were supplied by the people, and one of them was chosen for sacrifice by casting lots. This indicated that God does not arbitrarily choose which consecrated saints are to become members of the body of Christ – it is up to us to make our calling and election sure. The Lord’s goat lays down its life sacrificially, willingly, while the other goat becomes the scapegoat and is not sacrificed but it is sent into the wilderness to die unwillingly. The scapegoat is a type of the consecrated Christians who fail to fulfil the conditions of their sacrifice. These Christians fail to fully, willingly, sacrifice their earthy rights and their own will, and still seek the honour and favour of the world. They have their flesh destroyed under divine providence, that the spirit may be saved. They have been begotten of the Holy Spirit and cannot reassume their earthly rights and restitution blessings, so they cannot be resurrected as human beings, nor can they be resurrected with the immortal divine nature. They will be resurrected as mortal spirit beings, similar to the angels, and will serve God in his temple, though they will not be members of that symbolic temple which is the Christ.

“The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion [partnership or participation] of the blood of Christ?” (1 Corinthians 10:16).

 

[Taken]

Jesus says his return will be just like in the days of Noah.He says all of Noah's neighbors were unsaved people who were eating and drinking and they didn't know the flood was coming until it came and "took them all away." So when the flood came, who got "taken away"? The evil ones, who didn't know the judgement was coming: "And knew not until the flood came and took them all away; So shall also the coming of the son of man be." (Mat. 24:39).

The days of Noah…does reveal MUCH about The PEOPLE….other than Noah.

However…
The advantageous Knowledge IS:
About Noah himself…NOT About the PEOPLE…other than Noah (and his family.)

Noah……………... Believed.
Noah’s Acts…… Revealed his Belief, to God.
God directed … Noah Listened
Noah…………….. Obeyed.

No indication it had rained, before the flood.
No indication Noah built the ARK near a water source.
(Likely Noah was mocked, per reference to last days to come and days of the flood.
* 2 Pet 3: 3-6.)

Days of Noah:
Entered the ARK, 7 Days BEFORE, First drop of Rain.
* Gen 7:4

God Closed The Door to the Ark…No others Allowed To Enter.
* Gen 7:16

They IN the ARK, raised UP Above the Face of the Earth.
* Gen 7:17

Rain and Water from underground Seas Increase exponentially upon the face of the Earth, Killing Life ( outside of the ARK ; upon the face of the Earth).

As in the Days of Noah…
Men IN the ARK of Salvation (ie. IN CHRIST)…Shall AS Noah for an amount of 7, Be Lift UP Above the Face of the Earth, and the Door Closed.

The Lifting UP:
1 Thes. 4:
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

WHO Risen up ?
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

7 Significance:
Rev 11:
[2] But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Ie. 1,260 days = 3.5 years
[3] And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Ie. 1,260 days = 3.5 years
3.5 + 3.5 = 7.

Door shut to Whom and Why.
Matthew 7: 21 - 27
(Christ Rejectors. Peace and Safety prepared exclusively For those IN Christ).

* “Noah ALIVE Returned TO Earth”

* “So Also shall they IN Christ Return TO Earth Alive”.

1 Thes 4:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The Lords “com-ING”… and “RETURN”… are TWO DIFFERENT meanings, manifestations, regarding the END of Days Prophecy and Events.

The Rapture, ie. The Catch-ING Up (Above the face of the Earth, while Chaos, Tribulations, Wrath From Heaven Comes down UPON the whole Earth and it’s inhabitants…as IN the days of Noah)…was NOT prepared FOR those “NOT IN CHRIST”.

Glory to God,
Taken