Is there a 'world of spirits'?

[Jodi]

Jodi, you are welcome to speak about what you believe is true, but that does not make it true.

A question for you to ponder that comes from this verse: -

Daniel 7:2: - 2 Daniel spoke, saying, "I saw in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring up the Great Sea.​

Who or what are the "four winds of heaven?"

When you know the right answer to this question, then we may be able to discuss it in depth, God willing.

Shalom

Hi Jay,

Interesting, I've not encountered someone on a forum who wants to play games with scripture, where if I answer correctly unto your belief then maybe we can discuss something in depth. Hypocritical, condescending, manipulative, secretive is what I am seeing here. Not impressed.

Like I said earlier I am open minded. If I weren't then my beliefs would not have changed over time by studying and conversing with others on forums. People have to back up what they say with scripture and what they say needs to not just align with that one scripture or a handful of scriptures but must fit with all scriptures.

 

[Giuliano]

Hi Guiliano,

YOU:Satan is not God -- but Paul wasn't not completely mad when he called him "god of this world."

So what did he mean by it? You go on to discuss other things and fail to discuss this. If you answered my other question, I missed it: What about the LORD "trying" to kill Moses and failing?

ME: What scripture are you referring to and please define this "Satan/adversary" you speak of?

The word can be used in various ways. It does not always mean the same thing. But start with the passages where (1) Satan offers Jesus the kingdoms of the world, (2) where Satan accuses Joshua the High Priest but God corrects the situation, (3) where Satan tempted David, and (4) where Paul calls him the god of this world.

You go on to discuss how we often tempt ourselves, but that's another story. It is however how the Dark Side gains it power.

Paul tells us our god is our own belly, as men MIND earthly things, NOT mind some wicked rebel spirit entity.

Phil 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) 20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Ephesians 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. 25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

Jude 1:But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

What is the context in Jude? We see a conflict between the angelic and demonic.

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Some of the demons have fallen ever further than they had before -- and now they incarnate as human beings. That is expressed in the Psalm you quote next.

Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. 4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;

This is an indictment of "the wicked" who are born wicked. Indeed some demons have incarnated as humans, and some still do. This verse is not saying that all babies are born like this.

Psalms 140:1 Deliver me, O LORD, from the evil man: preserve me from the violent man; 2 Which imagine mischiefs in their heart; continually are they gathered together for war. 3 They have sharpened their tongues like a serpent; adders' poison is under their lips. Selah. 4 Keep me, O LORD, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from the violent man; who have purposed to overthrow my goings.

Romans 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. 19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Matthew 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

IS it not seen as clear to you, comparing scripture with scripture? To be CARNALLY MINDED IS DEATH. One human brought death to all, for that human was carnally minded, like that of a serpent with the poison of deceit under the tongue. The generation of vipers Jesus was speaking of were those of a CARNAL MIND also. The men who persecuted Jesus were carnally minded, slander was under their tongue. The men who have persecuted Christians likewise were of the old serpent, CARNALLY MINDED with poison under their tongues as well, following after the imagination of their hearts.

Jesus didn't call Peter SAW-TAWN an ADVERSARY because he was possessed or being influenced by a wicked rebel spirit. Peter had in MIND THE THINGS OF MEN, he was speaking CARNALLY MINDED, like a deaf and blind serpent who knows not the thoughts of God.

Micah 7:17 They shall lick the dust like a serpent, they shall move out of their holes like worms of the earth: they shall be afraid of the LORD our God, and shall fear because of thee.

God punished the CARNAL MIND, by giving it a weak mortal body that now had to serve itself in order to live. God brought the carnal mind into FEAR, fear necessary in order to survive, but also fear that causes man to serve the flesh in anyway he imagines, lying, stealing, killing. The carnal mind (serpent) was punished, on it's belly it would go and lick the dust. A serpent uses it's tongue to find food to serve it's belly. Paul says that our god is our belly where we MIND EARTHLY things. God brought forth the enmity to the carnal mind, where our carnal minds not only would continue to sin out of ignorance, out of lack of knowledge to the ways of God, out of lack of faith, but now sin because the carnal mind was placed in bondage to have to serve the weak mortal flesh in order to have life.

Paul speaks of this bondage in Romans 7.

When man is being a liar, a slanderer, a deceiver he is liked to a SERPENT, as a serpent is of a CARNAL MIND. The adversary, or the devil in the NT is always represented of a MAN OF CARNAL MIND, or a group of men that are a powerful force.

Kings that are a dragon operate according to their wicked spirits/those who are carnally minded serving their own desires following their OWN devices.

Jeremiah 51:34 Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon hath devoured me, he hath crushed me, he hath made me an empty vessel, he hath swallowed me up like a dragon, he hath filled his belly with my delicates, he hath cast me out.

Ezekiel 29:3 Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself.

Revelation 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads...17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

The DRAGON, the OLD SERPENT are MEN, KINGS who are of a CARNAL MIND, they WALK AFTER the FLESH, their god is their belly, they MIND earthly things, as they mind their own desires from their OWN imaginations.

Why did Jesus call his disciples sheep while he called religious leaders children of the serpent?

Do you remember the rules that governed who the Levites could marry? That was to insure pagan souls could not "sneak" into Israel's priestly class. They were trying to do that too and almost succeeded in the days of Joshua the High Priest. His sons had married outside the tribe of Levi. That was the "sin" Joshua needed to repent of. He did repent when it was pointed out to him; and God have him white garments and took away his filthy ones.

Something similar did happen later. The serpent's seed did infiltrate Israel. Their priestly class had good men but also had "children of the serpent" among the good.

There was more than one reason for the exiles of Israel. One was to correct them. The other was to convert the pagans by taking on their pagan gods and defeating them. Jambres and Jannes were the two magicians at the court of Pharaoh who cast down their rods and made them serpents. Pharoah himself came from the fallen angelic realm also. He was part of the original spiritual hierarchy that had fallen and needed to be replaced.

 

[Jay Ross]

Hi Jay,

Interesting, I've not encountered someone on a forum who wants to play games with scripture, where if I answer correctly unto your belief then maybe we can discuss something in depth. Hypocritical, condescending, manipulative, secretive is what I am seeing here. Not impressed.

Like I said earlier I am open minded. If I weren't then my beliefs would not have changed over time by studying and conversing with others on forums. People have to back up what they say with scripture and what they say needs to not just align with that one scripture or a handful of scriptures but must fit with all scriptures.

Jodi,

I said that maybe we would be able to discuss the verse in depth, God willing, in the post you quoted above, but my response to what you had posted was: -

Thanks for confirming what I already suspected concerning your insights.

Now you are the one playing games on this forum with your use of scripture to cover up your lack of understanding, claiming that the scriptures that you reference confirm what you believe.

You turned on me because of my above response and have now doubly confirmed my suspicions with this response with your attack on the person rather than addressing the content of what I had posted. Your best option would have been to let go and allow my comment post go through to the catcher. Know what I mean.

If you noticed, I made no comment as to whether or not you where right. What I suspected was that you believe that you are always right which makes you a person that I would not want to have a conversation with because you have a closed mind with respect to God's truth.

I will give you a clue. The four beasts are not the described manifestations that rise up out of the sea of humanity. What rises up out of the sea of humanity are the people who have chosen to inhabit the spiritual domains and dominions of the four respective beasts which are heavenly hosts. Please note that these respective manifestations ebb and flow, rise up and collapse as time continues on and the respective beastly manifestations have come and gone many times over the over the years as they passed.

Your response to my question was from what you believed that you knew about the particular verse in the overall passage.

Now have a good day

 

[Jodi]

Hi Jay,

YOU:Now you are the one playing games on this forum with your use of scripture to cover up your lack of understanding, claiming that the scriptures that you reference confirm what you believe.

You turned on me because of my above response and have now doubly confirmed my suspicions with this response with your attack on the person rather than addressing the content of what I had posted. Your best option would have been to let go and allow my comment post go through to the catcher. Know what I mean.

ME: How is it that you can say I am using scripture to "cover up" my "lack of understanding"? Doesn't one use scripture to show where it is they get their understanding from? What else can a person do but quote scriptures and give their understanding to what they see the truth is from those passages? That is NOT playing games. You telling me you may not even discuss scripture with me if I don't answer a question correctly as it fits your understanding is you playing games and also being hypocritical is it not?

You: "Who or what are the "four winds of heaven?"
"When you know the right answer to this question, THEN we MAY be able to discuss it in depth, God willing."

I turned on you and didn't address the content of what you posted, is your accusation. I didn't turn on you, I called you out. Your question to me and your conditions you laid forth according to my answer, I already had a problem with, but I went ahead and answered you giving you the benefit of my doubts.

Your CONTENT in response was "Thanks for confirming what I already suspected concerning your insights". There is no CONTENT there, that is you responding to me being condescending, and displaying to me that I really should have never given you the benefit of my doubts.

There was no CONTENT to your response that regarded scripture so that we could discuss scripture. I had hoped that even if I didn't answer correctly according to YOUR BELIEF, you would actually come forth in your response to mine and give your understanding and scriptural backing to it, but you didn't.

I specifically told you that I am an open minded person, and such is true as I told you that I have changed my beliefs over time through more study and conversing with folks on forums.

Now you are giving me "CLUES", lol!

YOU:I will give you a clue. The four beasts are not the described manifestations that rise up out of the sea of humanity. What rises up out of the sea of humanity are the people who have chosen to inhabit the spiritual domains and dominions of the four respective beasts which are heavenly hosts. Please note that these respective manifestations ebb and flow, rise up and collapse as time continues on and the respective beastly manifestations have come and gone many times over the over the years as they passed.

ME: You asked about the four winds, not the four beasts.

but in regards to the four beasts,

Daniel 7:16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him THE TRUTH OF ALL this. So he told me, and made me know the INTERPRETATION of the things. 17 These great beasts, which are four, ARE four KINGS, which shall arise out of the earth.

According to scripture a king without the mercy of God's Spirit directing his ways is going to act naturally like an ignorant BEAST corrupting himself, "10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves."

 

[Jay Ross]

You asked about the four winds, not the four beasts.

but in regards to the four beasts,

Daniel 7:16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him THE TRUTH OF ALL this. So he told me, and made me know the INTERPRETATION of the things. 17 These great beasts, which are four, ARE four KINGS, which shall arise out of the earth.

According to scripture a king without the mercy of God's Spirit directing his ways is going to act naturally like an ignorant BEAST corrupting himself, "10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves."

That was why I asked you what or who the four winds of heaven are/were. In your response, you showed me that you had no understanding of who or what the four winds of heaven were.

When I gave you a clue that the four winds of heaven were the four beasts that Daniel described, you rushed in above and spoke of the manifestations of the beast which rose up out of the sea of humanity under the influence of the four beastly winds of heaven.

Jodi, because we are so far apart in our respective understandings of who or what the four winds of heaven, mentioned in Daniel 7:2, are, it was apparent that it would become a slinging match and shouting match as to whose understanding was correct and as such any further discussion would be pointless.

My response to your response to my initial question was that you had confirmed my fear that we were to far apart to have a civil conversation, and your latest post has again confirmed this.

Shalom

 

[Jodi]

Hi Jay,

You didn't even want to have a conversation if I didn't answer a question according to your belief, and even if I answered it right you still didn't know if you would discuss it with me, "God willing" you said. So it's "God willing", that I answer the question correctly. How is that you not being condescending and hypocritical, for you addressed me firstly in your response to my post by saying just because I say something doesn't mean that it is true, then you turn around and tell me you have the correct answer to the meaning of a passage and God willing should I answer it correctly so that maybe you would respond to me. Ridiculousness!

Anyway, yes we are very far apart and all I ask is that people back up their belief by providing direct scripture and having some common sense is also always very helpful.

Christ's faithful are not going into a battle of man against man tearing flesh apart and shedding blood wearing armor/breastplates, shields, helmets having iron swords.

Their fight is to withstand persecution taking the whole armor of God with them as they suffer all the fiery darts human adversaries/sawtawns who are devils/diabolos/false accusers-deceivers throw at them, remaining in their faith unto death, where they are promised to receive the crown of life.

11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; 15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

When Paul wrote many of his books the Roman Emperor Nero was persecuting Christians putting them through torturous deaths, enjoying every minute of it. He was most certainly a FALSE ACCUSER/DIABOLOS-DEVIL. Not only this but Nero believed he was Apollo incarnate, where he had coins made of him saying he was the Almighty God and Savior, and coins with his portrait portraying him as Apollo.

Apollo was identified as the SUN, thus a "heavenly host". Apollo -a god of archery, music and dance, truth and prophecy, healing and diseases, the Sun and light, poetry, and more. Nero, Apollo incarnate, most certainly practiced and surrounded himself with all manner of spiritual wickedness of Roman occult practices.


Nero Persecutes The Christians, 64 A.D.

A generation after the death of Christ, Christianity had reached Rome in the form of an obscure offshoot of Judaism popular among the city's poor and destitute. Members of this religious sect spoke of the coming of a new kingdom and a new king. These views provoked suspicion among the Jewish authorities who rejected the group and fear among the Roman authorities who perceived these sentiments as a threat to the Empire.

A Roman mosaic shows prisoners
put to death in the arena
as part of a festival
In the summer of 64, Rome suffered a terrible fire that burned for six days and seven nights consuming almost three quarters of the city. The people accused the Emperor Nero for the devastation claiming he set the fire for his own amusement. In order to deflect these accusations and placate the people, Nero laid blame for the fire on the Christians. The emperor ordered the arrest of a few members of the sect who, under torture, accused others until the entire Christian populace was implicated and became fair game for retribution. As many of the religious sect that could be found were rounded up and put to death in the most horrific manner for the amusement of the citizens of Rome. The ghastly way in which the victims were put to death aroused sympathy among many Romans, although most felt their execution justified.

Beginnings of Christian Martyrdom

The following account was written by the Roman historian Tacitus in his book Annals published a few years after the event. Tacitus was a young boy living in Rome during the time of the persecutions.

"Therefore, to stop the rumor [that he had set Rome on fire], he [Emperor Nero] falsely charged with guilt, and punished with the most fearful tortures, the persons commonly called Christians, who were [generally] hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of that name, was put to death as a criminal by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea, in the reign of Tiberius, but the pernicious superstition - repressed for a time, broke out yet again, not only through Judea, - where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also, whither all things horrible and disgraceful flow from all quarters, as to a common receptacle, and where they are encouraged. Accordingly first those were arrested who confessed they were Christians; next on their information, a vast multitude were convicted, not so much on the charge of burning the city, as of "hating the human race."

In their very deaths they were made the subjects of sport: for they were covered with the hides of wild beasts, and worried to death by dogs, or nailed to crosses, or set fire to, and when the day waned, burned to serve for the evening lights. Nero offered his own garden players for the spectacle, and exhibited a Circensian game, indiscriminately mingling with the common people in the dress of a charioteer, or else standing in his chariot. For this cause a feeling of compassion arose towards the sufferers, though guilty and deserving of exemplary capital punishment, because they seemed not to be cut off for the public good, but were victims of the ferocity of one man."

Paul WAS not talking to Christians about invisible wicked rebel spirits corrupting Christian minds, in Ephesians 6 he was talking about the so believed divine Nero, Apollo incarnate, or any future emperor or king (beasts) who also believed themselves to be divine and are filled with spiritual wickedness, persecuting Christians as they put on their armor of God, staying true to their faith of their coming king and his eternal kingdom.

 

[Jodi]

Hello All,

Understanding JUDE 1, I needed to break this down into 2 posts,

JUDE 1:3 Beloved, all diligence using to write to you concerning the common salvation, I had necessity to write to you, exhorting to agonize for the faith once delivered to the saints, 4 for there did come in unobserved certain men, long ago having been written beforehand to this judgment, impious, the grace of our God perverting to lasciviousness, and our only Master, God, and Lord -- Jesus Christ -- denying,

Now the passage goes on to give examples of these certain MEN.

1:5 and to remind you I intend, you knowing once this, that the Lord, a people out of the land of Egypt having saved, again those who did not believe did destroy; 6 messengers also, those who did not keep their own principality, but did leave their proper dwelling, to a judgment of a great day, in bonds everlasting, under darkness He hath kept, 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, having given themselves to whoredom, and gone after other flesh, have been set before -- an example, of fire age-during, justice suffering. 8 In like manner, nevertheless, those dreaming also the flesh indeed do defile, and lordship they put away, and dignities they speak evil of,

These MESSENGERS, the certain MEN from long ago, are the prophets from Jeremiah 23:11 For both prophet and priest are profane; yea, in my house have I found their wickedness, saith the LORD. 12 Wherefore their way shall be unto them as slippery ways in the darkness: they shall be driven on, and fall therein: for I will bring evil upon them, even the year of their visitation, saith the LORD. 13 And I have seen folly in the prophets of Samaria; they prophesied in Baal, and caused my people Israel to err. 14 I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah. ..25 I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed. 26 How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart; 27 Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal.

Human prophets in the OT are directly referred to as Ma'lak the same word translated angel. 2 Chron 36:16 "But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised his words, and misused his prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against his people, till there was no remedy." Likewise in the NT aggelos the same word translated angel is referenced to a human prophet, Luke 7:27 "This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. 28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."

In Jude the introduction is about certain men, and then we are given examples, the reference to aggelos are thus those certain men/messengers/prophets where God found their wickedness in His house as they gave false visions from fake dreams, and God made them fall, Jeremiah 23 fits perfectly, they both even speak of false dreams and their fate as like Sodom and Gomorrah.

 

[Jodi]

Continued,

Jude 1:9 yet Michael, the chief messenger, when, with the devil contending, he was disputing about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring up an evil-speaking judgment, but said, `The Lord rebuke thee!' 10 and these, as many things indeed as they have not known, they speak evil of; and as many things as naturally (as the irrational beasts) they understand, in these they are corrupted; 11 wo to them! because in the way of Cain they did go on, and to the deceit of Balaam for reward they did rush, and in the gainsaying of Korah they did perish.

DEVIL does not equate to a wicked rebel spirit/fallen angel, devil/diabolos means prone to slander, false accuser.

Men are indeed a devil/slanderers, and in the above passage the devil is said to be "these" "they" "them" who speak evil like irrational beasts who went in the way of Cain, went to deceit of Balaam for reward, and in the rebellion of Korah they did perish.

Numbers 14:35 I the LORD have said, I will surely do it unto all this evil congregation, that are gathered together against me: in this wilderness they shall be consumed, and there they shall die. 36 And the men, which Moses sent to search the land, who returned, and made all the congregation to murmur against him, by bringing up a slander upon the land, 37 Even those men that did bring up the evil report upon the land, died by the plague before the LORD.

Numbers 16:1 Now Korah, the son of Izhar, the son of Kohath, the son of Levi, and Dathan and Abiram, the sons of Eliab, and On, the son of Peleth, sons of Reuben, took men: 2 And they rose up before Moses, with certain of the children of Israel, two hundred and fifty princes of the assembly, famous in the congregation, men of renown: 3 And they gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said unto them, Ye take too much upon you, seeing all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the LORD is among them: wherefore then lift ye up yourselves above the congregation of the LORD? 4 And when Moses heard it, he fell upon his face: 5 And he spake unto Korah and unto all his company, saying, Even to morrow the LORD will shew who are his, and who is holy; and will cause him to come near unto him: even him whom he hath chosen will he cause to come near unto him. 6 This do; Take you censers, Korah, and all his company; 7 And put fire therein, and put incense in them before the LORD to morrow: and it shall be that the man whom the LORD doth choose, he shall be holy: ye take too much upon you, ye sons of Levi. 8 And Moses said unto Korah, Hear, I pray you, ye sons of Levi: 9 Seemeth it but a small thing unto you, that the God of Israel hath separated you from the congregation of Israel, to bring you near to himself to do the service of the tabernacle of the LORD, and to stand before the congregation to minister unto them? 10 And he hath brought thee near to him, and all thy brethren the sons of Levi with thee: and seek ye the priesthood also? 11 For which cause both thou and all thy company are gathered together against the LORD: and what is Aaron, that ye murmur against him? 12 And Moses sent to call Dathan and Abiram, the sons of Eliab: which said, We will not come up: 13 Is it a small thing that thou hast brought us up out of a land that floweth with milk and honey, to kill us in the wilderness, except thou make thyself altogether a prince over us? 14 Moreover thou hast not brought us into a land that floweth with milk and honey, or given us inheritance of fields and vineyards: wilt thou put out the eyes of these men? we will not come up. 15 And Moses was very wroth, and said unto the LORD, Respect not thou their offering: I have not taken one ass from them, neither have I hurt one of them. 16 And Moses said unto Korah, Be thou and all thy company before the LORD, thou, and they, and Aaron, to morrow: 17 And take every man his censer, and put incense in them, and bring ye before the LORD every man his censer, two hundred and fifty censers; thou also, and Aaron, each of you his censer. 18 And they took every man his censer, and put fire in them, and laid incense thereon, and stood in the door of the tabernacle of the congregation with Moses and Aaron. 19 And Korah gathered all the congregation against them unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation: and the glory of the LORD appeared unto all the congregation. 20 And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying, 21 Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment. 22 And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation? 23 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 24 Speak unto the congregation, saying, Get you up from about the tabernacle of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram. 25 And Moses rose up and went unto Dathan and Abiram; and the elders of Israel followed him. 26 And he spake unto the congregation, saying, Depart, I pray you, from the tents of these wicked men, and touch nothing of theirs, lest ye be consumed in all their sins. 27 So they gat up from the tabernacle of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, on every side: and Dathan and Abiram came out, and stood in the door of their tents, and their wives, and their sons, and their little children. 28 And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the LORD hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind. 29 If these men die the common death of all men, or if they be visited after the visitation of all men; then the LORD hath not sent me. 30 But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD. 31 And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground clave asunder that was under them: 32 And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods. 33 They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation.


Numbers 31:11 And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts. 12 And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.13 And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp. 14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle. 15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? 16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.

There is no reference in JUDE 1 to wicked rebel spirits/fallen angels. JUDE 1 is about certain MEN, we are given examples of men from the OT, men who are natural men, like ignorant beasts who have not the Spirit of God and go about being murmurers/slanderers, walking according to their desires for profit.

Jude 1:12 These are in your love-feasts craggy rocks; feasting together with you, without fear shepherding themselves; clouds without water, by winds carried about; trees autumnal, without fruit, twice dead, rooted up; 13 wild waves of a sea, foaming out their own shames; stars going astray, to whom the gloom of the darkness to the age hath been kept. 14 And prophesy also to these did the seventh from Adam -- Enoch -- saying, `Lo, the Lord did come in His saintly myriads, 15 to do judgment against all, and to convict all their impious ones, concerning all their works of impiety that they did impiously, and concerning all the stiff things that speak against Him did impious sinners.' 16 These are murmurers, repiners; according to their desires walking, and their mouth doth speak great swellings, giving admiration to persons for the sake of profit; 17 and ye, beloved, remember ye the sayings spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ: 18 that they said to you, that in the last time there shall be scoffers, after their own desires of impieties going on, 19 these are those setting themselves apart, natural men, the Spirit not having. 20 And ye, beloved, on your most holy faith building yourselves up, in the Holy Spirit praying,

 

[r1xlx]

Hi Mike,
I discussed this in another thread.
When Jesus preached he was preaching to the spirits in men, he was not preaching unto their feet, or their arms, but to their spirit. He preached to spirits in prison, unto human spirits, men alive in jail.
There are many, many scriptures that show that there is LIFE and there is DEATH, DEATH as not equating to your body dying, but death meaning that you have NO LIFE, you cease to exist. God told Adam that 'he', not just his body, but 'he' was made of the dust and that 'he' would return to the dust.

Jesus did not preach to men in prison between his crucifixion and resurrection but he went to the fallen angels bound in their prison abyss. He went to tell them that although Satan had encouraged his slaves to kill Jesus's body he is the son of GOD and his spirit is immortal while they were definitely destined for destruction.
The thief on teh cross is still dead today but was given the assurance of being resurrected at the end of the Millennium.

 

[Jodi]

Jesus did not preach to men in prison between his crucifixion and resurrection but he went to the fallen angels bound in their prison abyss. He went to tell them that although Satan had encouraged his slaves to kill Jesus's body he is the son of GOD and his spirit is immortal while they were definitely destined for destruction.
The thief on teh cross is still dead today but was given the assurance of being resurrected at the end of the Millennium.

Hi r1xlx,

Agreed that Jesus did not preach to men in prison between his crucifixion and resurrection, my reason being is because during that time Jesus was dead, he was not alive.

Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

That which you said I don't find in scripture.

 

[r1xlx]

Jodi, a Christian can have the gift of holy spirit mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12 - one of which is wisdom and another knowledge.
My KJV Bible says Jesus went to preach to the spirits in prison. 1 Peter 3:18For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the spirit, 19in which He also went and preached to the spirits in prison .
You fail to know that the human dead know nothing as all thoughts die.
However Jesus was both spirit and human? What we these days call spirit, ghost, aliens, bigfoot, poltergeist - having the ability to materialise and demat at will? That is how Jesus walked on water? And how he knew a fish would have a coin in its mouth? And that a donkey would be tied in a certain place? And survive 40 days and nights without water or food when 4-5-6 would kill any human?
The spirit of dead humans ceases to exist and as all their thoughts die they cannot have known who Jesus was or what he was preaching or if they had been good or sinners?
The spirits he preached to were the fallen angels who had followed Satan down to Earth to mate with women to make the Nephilim giants as this photo shows:

Some of these angels must not have been as evil as Satan as Paul said at 1 Corinthians 6:3 'We are to judge angels?
However at 6:1 he said
6:1 "Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?" He meant talk things through with mature Christians to sort out the problem rather than go to the lawyers who would only know Jewish Law.

2 "Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?" Here he clearly refers to the 144,000 saints who have been and will be killed for preaching the Gospel. These are to sit and govern with Jesus during The Millennium.

3 "Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?" What angels can he mean? It cannot be good angels who have not sinned against GOD as the spirits are clearly in prison. Even if some good angels have failed to carry out GOD's wishes or who like men have looked at human women with lust they would not be in prison would they?
However we have to look at Genesis 6:4 to read that the original Nephilim giants all drowned in The Flood but there were some around after that - so does that mean more angels lusted after women and made more Nephilim babies? Or are post-flood Nephilim giants like Goliath and the Anak the Israelites saw in the Promised Land just human babies with the DNA of Nephilim who happened to grow into giants as did William Bradley from a town about 20 miles from me: Giant Bradley, or the Yorkshire Giant, was the tallest British man that has ever been recorded. He measured 7 feet and 9 inches (2.36 metres). I think the 'judge angels' must refer to the angels who initially followed Satan in Genesis 6:2.

 

[r1xlx]

Thanks for the reply in black.
You cannot recollect being a spirit outside of your body. I can. I am not always "in" my body -- I am sometimes "outside" of it.
So you do not believe spirits can exist independently of the material bodies. Do you think God also has a material body?

Sad to say, some spirits do not return to God. They know they don't need physical bodies to keep existing; but they also do not wish to return to God. Yes, I have seen some of them, I have talked to some of them. Again I tell you not to take my word for it -- don't believe something just because I say so -- but have an open mind. The belief that spirits cannot exist independently of physical bodies can create problems for people when their bodies die.

ME: You sound like some Eastern mystic hallucinating on drugs rather than a Christian.
When our body dies all our thoughts perish - therefore we cannot know or remember anything?
Burn your Talmud and occult books and concentrate on a good KJV Study Bible.

 

[r1xlx]

I can't see where you proved anything, sorry. I agree that man deceives himself. That's how the Dark Side gets its power. I would say Eve wanted to be deceived and that's how the serpent managed to deceive her.

Satan is not God -- but Paul wasn't not completely mad when he called him "god of this world."

Every nation has its own particular god who was supposed to act as its Guardian Angel, as its connection with the One True God. Those gods fell and began to want men to worship them as God Himself. They ceased teaching the nations about the One True God. Some day, even those fallen gods will be restored, brought back into unity with the One True God.

Micah 4:5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the Lord our God for ever and ever.

Jesus called Satan the ruler of this world as GOD had clearly handed the world over to Satan for 6,000 years to see if he could make it as perfect as GOD did in 6 days.
You say each nation has its own god - that is a lie and you are confused because Satan obviously appointed a superior angel over each nation - as Daniel 10 clearly teachs that even Archangel Michael had to come help the angel messenger that had been sent to give a mesage to Daniel had been held back 21 days by the Prince of Persia-Assyria-Babylon.
That superior angel may have been the kind that Jesus said would only be exorcised by fasting and prayer?

You are one who takes odd verses and builds fantasies around tehm instead of considering tehwhole passge and getting the big picture.

 

[Jodi]

ME: You sound like some Eastern mystic hallucinating on drugs rather than a Christian.
When our body dies all our thoughts perish - therefore we cannot know or remember anything?
Burn your Talmud and occult books and concentrate on a good KJV Study Bible.

Good morning r1xlx,

Very good, agreed that when we die our thoughts perish. My understanding is that the human spirit lives as long as the human brain is alive. When the body dies the person is dead as likewise the brain is dead and thus also the human spirit therein. Why God told Adam and Eve that dust they are and dust they shall return.

Jesus is said to be a human and he died like all humans die, however unlike all other humans after death, Jesus's flesh was not allowed to see decay.

1 Corinthians 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Paul goes on in the chapter to tell us that Jesus's resurrection to life being raised in glory, power, incorruptible is our resurrection also. As his flesh did not see decay but rose to life once more his body received glory, power, was made incorruptible/eternal. He appeared to many proving he was not a spirit entity but a human of flesh and bones where he went and taught his disciples concerning himself according to the OT prophecies. It is a son of a human who is returning among the clouds in glory, he IS the root and offspring of David.

The idea that between his death and resurrection he preached to fallen angels in prison I do not find in scripture. I find it to be directly against scripture actually, as when he died he is said to have been among those who sleep the sleep of death. Jesus likewise in his death as others, had no thoughts.

 

[r1xlx]

Jodi.
you lack understanding.
Bible tells us he went to preach to those in prison.
Jesus had a human body and a spirit being - just like the Nephilim.
Elijah went up to somewhere but perhaps not heaven.
Human bodies can somehow be protected same as astronauts and firemen.

 

[Jodi]

Hi r1xlx,

YOU: Jodi, a Christian can have the gift of holy spirit mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12 - one of which is wisdom and another knowledge.

ME: Agreed, God’s gives measures of His Spirit unto people according to His will, wisdom, knowledge, self control, patience, meekness, kindness..etc..

YOU: My KJV Bible says Jesus went to preach to the spirits in prison. 1 Peter 3:18For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the spirit, 19in which He also went and preached to the spirits in prison.

You fail to know that the human dead know nothing as all thoughts die.

ME: As said earlier I fully agree that the human dead know nothing, it’s nice to agree on something!

1 Peter 3:16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. 17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. 18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

By the power of the Spirit of God Jesus was raised from the dead, and that same Spirit rested upon Jesus fulfilling Isaiah 11, 42, and 61, where by the power of that same Spirit Jesus was set apart/anointed TO preach the gospel, to deliver captives out of darkness. Likewise we are told in Acts 2:33 that the resurrected Jesus received the promise of the Holy Spirit.

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

By which the Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead it is by that same Spirit resting upon Jesus that Jesus was able to preach and deliver captives out of darkness by.

Through the Spirit of God Jesus preached, and he preached unto the spirits of men who were once disobedient but now repented and were saved by baptism. As God was longsuffering waiting in the days of Noah he saved 8 souls by water, these spirits of men being preached to in prison likewise were saved by water/their baptism. As Paul says, it is the Spirit that bears witness to our spirits that we are children of God.

Numbers 27: 16 Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation, 17 Which may go out before them, and which may go in before them, and which may lead them out, and which may bring them in; that the congregation of the LORD be not as sheep which have no shepherd.

Jesus was a shepherd, and when he was alive on earth whether it be before he died or after he rose and appeared to many, or both, he went and through the power of the Spirit that was upon him, he preached to the spirits of men who were in prison.

 

[r1xlx]

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
Jesus obviously went to speak to spirits from before The Flood - the fallen angels.
He didn't preach to ordinary living humans during those three days.
Nor did he pop up to heaven to see GOD.
He obviously stayed dead until the Sunday morning when the guards saw the stone had been rolled away.
It wouldn't take him long to go to the abyss in which the fallen angels are held bound.
Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

 

[Jodi]

Hi r1xlx,

I am enjoying our discussion and hearing what it is you believe and comparing it to my own beliefs.

YOU: However Jesus was both spirit and human? What we these days call spirit, ghost, aliens, bigfoot, poltergeist - having the ability to materialise and demat at will? That is how Jesus walked on water? And how he knew a fish would have a coin in its mouth? And that a donkey would be tied in a certain place? And survive 40 days and nights without water or food when 4-5-6 would kill any human?

ME: Jesus was a human, not a one of a kind being, what separated Jesus from all other humans is that he is God’s word from Isaiah 11, 42, 45, and 61 made true in his flesh. God called the son of Jesse to righteousness where God directed all his ways so that he would fulfill all of God’s will, the covenant, be for a LIGHT unto all people delivering captives. He was a child that grew having the grace of God upon him so that he would choose the good over the bad, then the Spirit descended upon him like a dove and he left the river Jordan having been filled with the Spirit, the only mortal man to have been begotten by God’s Spirit without measure and all the powers thereof. God held his hand and would not allow him to fail upon being sent out into the world TO preach, TO perform signs and miracles, TO deliver captives.

Jesus walked on water, turned water into wine, raised the dead, healed, etc.. BECAUSE God’s Spirit and the powers thereof was upon him, not because he was some half breed human spirit being. After Jesus ascended to be with our Father, the Spirit also came to rest upon others each by measure, some were made prophets, some healers, etc… they together continued to do the same works that Jesus alone did do, using the powers of God’s Spirit to bring people into faith.

 

[Jodi]

Hi r1xlx, we have a lot to discuss, as you have said alot.

YOU: The spirits he preached to were the fallen angels who had followed Satan down to Earth to mate with women to make the Nephilim giants as this photo shows

ME: I have already given my understanding of 1 Peter 3, I look forward to your response.

Fallen angels mating with humans is against God's creation, each living soul that God made reproduces after it's own kind.

The children born from the mating of the sons of God with that of the sons of men, you are directly told are HUMANS, not halfbreeds.

The children are HUMANS which makes the Sons of God humans, they were humans who up until then followed God, but after they took daughters of men they were corrupted. Israel is said to be God's son, and the commandment unto the Israelites was for them not to marry heathen woman, because they would be corrupted by heathen ways. This is exactly what happened below, God's children couldn't resist the temptation of beautiful corrupt woman, and the result was the earth became full of corruption.

3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. 4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men (enowsh- mortal man) of renown. 5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man (Adam/human) was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man (Adam/human) on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man (Adam/human) whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man (Adam/human), and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

 

[Jodi]

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
Jesus obviously went to speak to spirits from before The Flood - the fallen angels.
He didn't preach to ordinary living humans during those three days.
Nor did he pop up to heaven to see GOD.
He obviously stayed dead until the Sunday morning when the guards saw the stone had been rolled away.
It wouldn't take him long to go to the abyss in which the fallen angels are held bound.
Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

First of all, Jesus was a dead human sleeping the sleep of death with all the other dead, so your understanding is not possible to begin with.

Second, the souls that were not saved were HUMAN souls ADAMS, not fallen angels or some halfbreed angel-humans, where upon death they became spirits put in prison. They were humans who God destroyed along with all other creatures who didn't go onto the ark.

5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man (Adam/human) was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man (Adam/human) on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man (Adam/human) whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man (Adam/human), and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison, which sometime were disobedient. (ME: they that are now saved through baptism, the like figure of when once the longsuffering of God waited....)

When once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water, the like figure where unto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: