Is there a 'world of spirits'?

[Helen]

@Nancy
Here you are @Nancy A Clear and sensible answer to your question.. right?

Pick the bones out is this post below.

Hi Nancy,

Psalms 57:3 He shall send from heaven, and save me from the reproach of him that would swallow me up. God shall send forth his mercy and his truth. 4 My soul is among lions: and I lie even among them that are set on fire, even the sons of men, whose teeth are spears and arrows, and their tongue a sharp sword. 5 Be thou exalted, O God, above the heavens; let thy glory be above all the earth. 6 They have prepared a net for my steps; my soul is bowed down: they have digged a pit before me, into the midst whereof they are fallen themselves.

Psalms 17:9 From the wicked that oppress me, from my deadly enemies, who compass me about. 10 They are inclosed in their own fat: with their mouth they speak proudly. 11 They have now compassed us in our steps: they have set their eyes bowing down to the earth; 12 Like as a lion that is greedy of his prey, and as it were a young lion lurking in secret places. 13 Arise, O LORD, disappoint him, cast him down: deliver my soul from the wicked, which is thy sword: 14 From men which are thy hand, O LORD, from men of the world, which have their portion in this life, and whose belly thou fillest with thy hid treasure: they are full of children, and leave the rest of their substance to their babes. 15 As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.

Psalms 58:1 Do ye indeed speak righteousness, O congregation? do ye judge uprightly, O ye sons of men? 2 Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth. 3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. 4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear; 5 Which will not hearken to the voice of charmers, charming never so wisely. 6 Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD. 7 Let them melt away as waters which run continually: when he bendeth his bow to shoot his arrows, let them be as cut in pieces. 8 As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun. 9 Before your pots can feel the thorns, he shall take them away as with a whirlwind, both living, and in his wrath. 10 The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked. 11 So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.

Job 5:12 He disappointeth the devices of the crafty, so that their hands cannot perform their enterprise. 13 He taketh the wise in their own craftiness: and the counsel of the froward is carried headlong. 14 They meet with darkness in the daytime, and grope in the noonday as in the night. 15 But he saveth the poor from the sword, from their mouth, and from the hand of the mighty.

Psalms 5:10 Destroy thou them, O God; let them fall by their own counsels; cast them out in the multitude of their transgressions; for they have rebelled against thee.

Psalms 81:12 So I gave them up unto their own hearts' lust: and they walked in their own counsels.

Isaiah 30:1 Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin: 2 That walk to go down into Egypt, and have not asked at my mouth; to strengthen themselves in the strength of Pharaoh, and to trust in the shadow of Egypt! 3 Therefore shall the strength of Pharaoh be your shame, and the trust in the shadow of Egypt your confusion. 4 For his princes were at Zoan, and his ambassadors came to Hanes. 5 They were all ashamed of a people that could not profit them, nor be an help nor profit, but a shame, and also a reproach. 6 The burden of the beasts of the south: into the land of trouble and anguish, from whence come the young and old lion, the viper and fiery flying serpent, they will carry their riches upon the shoulders of young asses, and their treasures upon the bunches of camels, to a people that shall not profit them. 7 For the Egyptians shall help in vain, and to no purpose: therefore have I cried concerning this, Their strength is to sit still. 8 Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever: 9 That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD: 10 Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:

Jeremiah 23:13 And I have seen folly in the prophets of Samaria; they prophesied in Baal, and caused my people Israel to err. 14 I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah. 15 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts concerning the prophets; Behold, I will feed them with wormwood, and make them drink the water of gall: for from the prophets of Jerusalem is profaneness gone forth into all the land. 16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD...25 I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed. 26 How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;

Proverbs 10:15 The rich man's wealth is his strong city: the destruction of the poor is their poverty. 16 The labour of the righteous tendeth to life: the fruit of the wicked to sin. 17 He is in the way of life that keepeth instruction: but he that refuseth reproof erreth. 18 He that hideth hatred with lying lips, and he that uttereth a slander, is a fool. 19 In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips is wise. 20 The tongue of the just is as choice silver: the heart of the wicked is little worth.

Jeremiah 23:17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.

1 Peter 5:8 "Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil (DIABOLOS/FALSE ACCUSER) prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.

YOU: How do you reconcile this? So, who is this roaring lion?

ME: How many scriptures do you NEED???

MEN are likened to LIONS, DOGS, SERPENTS, not because they are possessed by wicked rebel spirits, but because they are of a CARNAL MIND, and the human carnal mind follows after his own nature, which has an IMAGINATION that SLANDERS and is an adversary unto himself as well as others.

 

[Jodi]

Hi Nancy,

Continued,

1 Cor 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

Phil 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.

I Corinthians 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

Psalms 73:22 So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before thee.

Jeremiah 5:21 Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not:

Jeremiah 10:8 But they are altogether brutish and foolish: the stock is a doctrine of vanities.

Ezekiel 13:3 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!

John 7:1 After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.

John 5:16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.

Luke 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

Psalms 22:12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round. 13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion. 14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. 15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death. 16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. 18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture. 19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me. 20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog. 21 Save me from the lion's mouth.

The rulers are not possessed by wicked rebel spirits, it is their OWN spirit that devices wickedness.

The roaring lion that pierced Jesus's hand and feet were MEN, not possessed by wicked spirits, but men following their OWN spirit.

1 Corinthians 2: 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

the "spirit of the world" is nothing other than the spirit of MAN, that knows not God. Spiritual wickedness is of MEN.

Psalm 9:16 The LORD is known by the judgment which he executeth: the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands

Psalm 10:2 The wicked in his pride doth persecute the poor: let them be taken in the devices that they have IMAGINED.

HOW MANY SCRIPTURES DO YOU NEED?

Romans 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. 19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Jerm 16:12 And ye have done worse than your fathers; for, behold, ye walk every one after the imagination of his evil heart, that they may not hearken unto me:

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. 4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;

A SERPENT is of a CARNAL MIND,

Man is likened to SERPENTS, WHY? Oh because they are possessed by evil wicked spirits? NO! Because man is of a CARNAL MIND, who walks according to his own imagination and such brings forth death.

Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

 

[Helen]

Hi Nancy,

Continued,

1 Cor 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

Phil 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.

I Corinthians 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

Psalms 73:22 So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before thee.

Jeremiah 5:21 Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not:

Jeremiah 10:8 But they are altogether brutish and foolish: the stock is a doctrine of vanities.

Ezekiel 13:3 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!

John 7:1 After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.

John 5:16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.

Luke 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

Psalms 22:12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round. 13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion. 14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. 15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death. 16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. 18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture. 19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me. 20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog. 21 Save me from the lion's mouth.

The rulers are not possessed by wicked rebel spirits, it is their OWN spirit that devices wickedness.

The roaring lion that pierced Jesus's hand and feet were MEN, not possessed by wicked spirits, but men following their OWN spirit.

1 Corinthians 2: 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

the "spirit of the world" is nothing other than the spirit of MAN, that knows not God. Spiritual wickedness is of MEN.

Psalm 9:16 The LORD is known by the judgment which he executeth: the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands

Psalm 10:2 The wicked in his pride doth persecute the poor: let them be taken in the devices that they have IMAGINED.

HOW MANY SCRIPTURES DO YOU NEED?

Romans 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. 19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Jerm 16:12 And ye have done worse than your fathers; for, behold, ye walk every one after the imagination of his evil heart, that they may not hearken unto me:

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. 4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;

A SERPENT is of a CARNAL MIND,

Man is likened to SERPENTS, WHY? Oh because they are possessed by evil wicked spirits? NO! Because man is of a CARNAL MIND, who walks according to his own imagination and such brings forth death.

Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

You are still NOT answering her question.

If Satan is just the carnal mind, then who was speaking to Eve in The Garden?

And you are obviously saying that Jesus was speaking to Himself in the wilderness temptation.

What you believe is not new... I've heard it before...it's a load of old codswallop.

 

[Jodi]

Hi Helen,

Nancy asked a question and then answered her own question, and I then gave a response to her own answer.

Nancy said, "Who was it that tempted Eve? It was Satan who was once the most beautiful angel, Lucifer. He rebelled and became Satan"

You make me sad Helen.

You don't know me, I have just spent time giving lots of scriptures, and you want to respond with accusing me of being a cop out and that I am "pretending" that I don't understand Nancy's question. Not cool bro!!

When I hear someone reference Lucifer and speak of a "beautiful angel" who became "Satan", it kind of makes me a little hot to trot to give scriptural evidence against what I see is man made doctrine. So sue me for not jumping to her second question, but giving focus to her first question that I believe she falsely answered.

Rather I should say instead of "sue me", go ahead and be a DEVIL/SLANDERER/FALSE ACCUSER A SATAN/ADVERSARY/ONE WHO OPPOSES, UNTO to someone you barely KNOW and thus are ignorant and relying on the imagination of your own heart, as to what my own heart and intentions are reflective of.

 

[Nancy]

@Nancy
Here you are @Nancy A Clear and sensible answer to your question.. right?
View attachment 8558
Pick the bones out is this post below.

Oh @Helen , did you actually waste your time reading that tome?!! I'm done here. This girl has quite an "imagination" and, does not answer the many scriptures I put out there...she has no answer! And yes, I was speaking about Adam, Eve and the serpent. BTW-there is no meat here, just posting huge posts that have nothing at all to do with the scriptures I posed to her.
xo

 

[Helen]

Hi Helen,

Nancy asked a question and then answered her own question, and I then gave a response to her own answer.

Nancy said, "Who was it that tempted Eve? It was Satan who was once the most beautiful angel, Lucifer. He rebelled and became Satan"

You make me sad Helen.

You don't know me, I have just spent time giving lots of scriptures, and you want to respond with accusing me of being a cop out and that I am "pretending" that I don't understand Nancy's question. Not cool bro!!

When I hear someone reference Lucifer and speak of a "beautiful angel" who became "Satan", it kind of makes me a little hot to trot to give scriptural evidence against what I see is man made doctrine. So sue me for not jumping to her second question, but giving focus to her first question that I believe she falsely answered.

Rather I should say instead of "sue me", go ahead and be a DEVIL/SLANDERER/FALSE ACCUSER A SATAN/ADVERSARY/ONE WHO OPPOSES, UNTO to someone you barely KNOW and thus are ignorant and relying on the imagination of your own heart, as to what my own heart and intentions are reflective of.

Don't be silly. No one "knows" anyone on line. Why do I have to "know you" first. We know them by their fruit, and your 'fruit' is bitter.

You just 'swamp' verses and call it a response. Yet in all those verses you do not address or answer.

I asked you who Alex Saunders worships ..I asked you who Jesus was talking to in the wilderness, Nancy asked you who Eve was talking to in the garden.
I asked you who God cursed after the deception of Eve by 'crawling on their belly from then onward.

No answers, just a cop-out of flooding disjointed verses.
That does not impress anyone or move your argument forward...even Satan himself can, did , and does flood and quote scripture verses at people.

You come here with this junk and expect to have an audience for it..
Not me for sure. Jesus told us to preach the Good News of the Kingdom... not "bat for the Enemy's side ".

 

[Nancy]

Don't be silly. No one "knows" anyone on line. Why do I have to "know you" first. We know them by their fruit, and your 'fruit' is bitter.

You just 'swamp' verses and call it a response. Yet in all those verses you do not address or answer.

I asked you who Alex Saunders worships ..I asked you who Jesus was talking to in the wilderness, Nancy asked you who Eve was talking to in the garden.
I asked you who God cursed after the deception of Eve by 'crawling on their belly from then onward.

No answers, just a cop-out of flooding disjointed verses.
That does not impress anyone or move your argument forward...even Satan himself can, did , and does flood and quote scripture verses at people.

You come here with this junk and expect to have an audience for it..
Not me for sure. Jesus told us to preach the Good News of the Kingdom... not "bat for the Enemy's side ".

Preach it sister!!!

 

[Giuliano]

Hi Giuliano, thanks for your reply.

I agree with you, of course God is not capable of iniquity, our Creator IS righteous, perfect. The word translated evil as you know is RA, which reflects bad/disagreeable/pain/suffering/adversity...ect. Our God curses/punishes according to righteous purpose. Men on the other hand do that which is BAD for greed, selfish gain, lack of self control.

God says that false gods are not to be feared, as they can do no harm nor any good, they don't exist as scripture tells us they are the product of man's own imagination.

What passages do you mean which say they are only the product of our imagination? Such passages can often be red more than one way. What I will say is that there are entities -- or so-called gods -- which men ignorantly worship as God. People call them fallen, deluded, rebellious. In the end these entities will be restored to their proper stations. The "gods" of the Gentiles fell. It might be better to call them the Guardian Angels of the nations; but when they began to be worshiped as God Himself, they were in rebellion, and the people of the nations lost their connection with the One True God. Those "gods" will be brought back into harmony with Heaven someday as Micah wrote:

Micah 4:5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the Lord our God for ever and ever.

Furthermore God says that He is the only one who can bless and who can curse, there are no other supernatural powers, it is only Him God says that we should fear.

That can be read impersonally. If I jump off a cliff and die, you could say God killed me since God made the law of gravity. What we call blessings and cursings are often not God actively doing anything but rather His laws working.

Thus God warned Adam and Eve of what would happen to them if they ate of the forbidden fruit. We should not believe God got angry and cursed them because He is like a human male who goes into a rage if someone disobeys him.

I do not see one scripture in the bible where there are celestial messengers Of God that turned and rebelled against Him. To me according to scripture, the doctrine from men regarding fallen celestial messengers, is nothing more than images of false gods. A false god doesn't merely equate to something you worship, but a false god is anyone who you denote God's powers to, that He says that He ALONE has.

Only God Himself is perfect. Angels by themselves are not. They remain in a state of perfection only when in communion with God, acting in complete harmony. I realize we should not take what Eliphaz says too seriously in the book of Job since his ideas are often wrong; but he said:

Job 4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
18 Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly:

Now imagine you are a Jew who went after false gods and believed the daimons (demons) of paganism were true, thus you would believe that the supernatural ability to curse humans was done according to wickedness, as pagans believed in both good demons and bad/wicked demons. So here you are going after false gods breaking God's commandment where God said He would curse you for it, and when you are cursed you denote it to wicked demons, instead of God carrying out that which He said He would do. Shouldn't it be obvious that the idea of fallen celestial messengers is the product of pagan beliefs being applied to Christianity? In the world of paganism there were good spirits (daimons/demons) and there were bad/wicked spirits (daimons/demons).

If you were an epileptic back in the day, having seizures where you would foam at the mouth and vomit, and lose all control of your body, you were believed to have a wicked spirit in you, you were seen as possessed by a demon. God says He alone brings forth all manner of diseases, infirmities, madness, blindness, deaf and mute..etc just read Deut 28.

Deut 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

Jesus came and people witnessed him HEAL, and he healed through having God's Spirit and power upon him. David played music which made the bad spirit God placed on Saul depart from him. It is God ALONE that has the power to wound/inflict and to heal.

Now imagine you believe in "wicked" demons, and you hold all the imagery that man has created about these false wicked spirits, and you are suffering from mental illness/ your mad, like you have split personalities, is it any surprise if you find one of those personalities is none other than a false wicked demon? By this people are all the more convinced that wicked demons that possess you are true.

We should not forget that God gave dominion of the earth to man. Man is much more powerful spiritually than most people think. God gave that dominion to man, and God's gifts are "without repentance."

What you may not be seeing is how men help "create" false gods by worshiping them and imagining these false gods have power on their own. What we believe in often is what seems real (and becomes real) to us. All sorts of evil can be imagined by humans and then become true. There is a "trick" involved too -- where the spirit without a human body convinces the humans that he is a god with lots of power. The humans who then say this "demon" has power has in fact given it power. Man's dominion over the earth is handed over to the demonic.

 

[Giuliano]

The adversary in the book of Job is not a rebellious wicked fallen celestial messenger, that which the adversary does is by the command of God, and Job himself says that he is suffering from the hand of God. This messenger is a SAW-TAWN unto Job, not a rebel against God. The messenger was right about Job, and the infliction upon Job was not done for wicked purposes but to refine Job. God's messengers carrying out His will of cursing were seen unto the people as SAW-TAWNS/Adversaries, one who "opposes" you, one who is cursing you "standing against you".

The word "Satan" is used in more than one way in the Bible. It means "adversary" (as you state) in the book of Job and he plays the role we would call "prosecuting attorney" today.

What sort of Saw-TAWN/Adversary would move David to number his men? An army that David perceived was threatening and coming up against him of course. That Satan made David fear, and instead of looking to God he looked to number his army.

Perhaps we need to take a closer look at the two passages that describe this. In one, it's said Satan did it. In the other, it's the "anger of the LORD."

1 Chronicles 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

2 Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

I know what I think, but what do you think of those two passages?

In Zech 3 there is a SAW-TAWN against the high priest Joshua. Joshua was a leader to reconstruct the temple, he had a human adversary come and attempt to thwart the reconstruction. That was his adversary SAW-TAWN and God would not allow it.

The whole story is not in Zechariah. Joshua had sons who had married pagan women instead of women of the tribe of Levi. This was an attempt by the Dark Side to introduce the seed of the serpent into the lineage of the Aaronic priesthood.

Joshua then appears before the LORD with Satan as his accuser. Satan's accusation was correct in this case. Joshua didn't have a "clean" garment. He repented of his sin however. Thus God could give him new clean garment.

Note if you will when Satan shows up in the Bible. It's not to ordinary sinners. It's to saints. Those saints have their problems the way Job did; and sooner or later, they need to solve them. God protects His saints when they are too weak to deal with the temptations -- temptations they themselves helped create. In other words, God protects us at times from our own secret sinful nature so we're not aware of it. When God sees we're strong enough to deal with such inner evil, the time has come -- not for God to tempt us (since God tempts no one) -- but for God to allow us to be tempted so we can pass the test and overcome.

It ought not surprise anyone that the "secret sinful nature" inside humans helps prop up "fallen spirits" out there too. Have we not all been guilty of creating evil in the world, making it more evil "out there"? Should we be surprised then when that "evil" returns to us later, not to beat us down, not to defeat us, but so we can repent of it and come one step closer to perfection? Satan has no power except that which we humans have given him. You think there is no spiritual being Satan? I think it's hard to say where the "Satan within" stops and the "Satan without" begins. They are that interconnected at times.

The Bible can be hard to interpret. The Jews did not like to use the names of demons or even angels that much. Thus the Torah may read "the LORD" when it's an angel of the LORD -- and sometimes it could even be a demon -- a spirit that should be part of God, should be in harmony with God, but which hates man and seeks to defeat God's plans for the salvation of all mankind. Should we be surprised then if a demon showed up and tried to kill Moses when he failed to circumcise his son?

Exodus 4:24 And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him.

The Jews say it was a demon. I agree. I cannot believe God would "try" to do something and fail. We should not interpret the Bible to mean God has any defects or imperfections.

 

[historyb]

I hope I am right in highlighting (as a topic theme) the following extracts from chapters 3 and 4 of Peter's first Epistle:

"Christ, was put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
It was for this cause that the gospel was preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit"

So that you can see them in context, the verses highlighted above are the emboldened bits within the following joined up text from the end of chapter 3 and the beginning of chapter 4:

"Christ, was put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries: wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you: who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

It was for this cause that the gospel was preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit".

Wadya all reckon about 'The aforementioned Spirit World'?

For me, its active existence is my best explanation for certain bits of otherwise unexplainable paranormality such as young children being able to describe historic information that they could not possibly have otherwise known about.

PS I suppose Matthew 27:51-53 could also fit well into this topic (provided you can surmount the Hebrews 9:27 "once" stumbling block)

I believe there are a world of spirits. Of course I am the wired one who believes in ghosts

 

[Jodi]

You are still NOT answering her question.

If Satan is just the carnal mind, then who was speaking to Eve in The Garden?

And you are obviously saying that Jesus was speaking to Himself in the wilderness temptation.

What you believe is not new... I've heard it before...it's a load of old codswallop.

Hi Helen and All,

Throughout scripture man is likened to animals, men/kings/armies are called a beast or a dragon.

10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

Man is likened to animals for being CARNALLY MINDED.

You are told that to be carnally minded is DEATH.

When God said if you eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil you will DIE.

Proverbs 3:31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their OWN WAY, and be filled with their OWN DEVICES.

1 Corinthians 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

Psalms 73:22 So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before thee.

Jesus doesn't call men VIPERS because they are influenced or possessed by wicked rebel angels, but because they are of a CARNAL MIND.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Jesus calls Peter SATAN/ADVERSARY BECAUSE he has in HIS MIND the things of MEN, and when MEN are carnally minded, when men lie and slander they are likened to SERPENTS.

Ephesians 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation (conduct) the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts (desires that are forbidden); 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God IS CREATED in righteousness and true holiness.

1 Corinthians 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Isaiah 42:6 I the LORD have CALLED thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

Isaiah 45:13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.

Adam and Eve were FLESH, and they were EARTHY of a CARNAL MIND, FIRST is NATURAL, then you are elected according to God being CALLED by God unto His righteousness according to His will. As Paul tells us, His Spirit becomes a witness to our spirits that we are children of God. FIRST IS the NATURAL man who can do nothing of himself, where you are told that man is like a SERPENT, deaf and blind to God and His ways. The CARNAL MIND is not capable on it's OWN to follow God's law, it IS IGNORANT, and the natural man is foolish according to his own imagination. All Wisdom, Understanding, Knowledge comes from God.

Genesis 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

The MOST crafty CARNAL MIND in the Garden of Eden was the HUMAN CARNAL MIND, and direct scripture likens our carnal minds when we LIE and deceive to that of SERPENTS.

Scripture directly tells me that the SERPENT in the garden represents the deceitful CARNAL MIND of MAN, deaf and blind like that of an asp where poison is under the tongue, because MAN has an imagination, he is crafty, having a MIND of his OWN that you are directly told is ignorant and foolish able to DECEIVE itself.

Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Psalms 44:23 Awake, why sleepest thou, O Lord? arise, cast us not off for ever. 24 Wherefore hidest thou thy face, and forgettest our affliction and our oppression? 25 For our soul is bowed down to the dust: our belly cleaveth unto the earth.

Micah 7:17 They shall lick the dust like a serpent, they shall move out of their holes like worms of the earth: they shall be afraid of the LORD our God, and shall fear because of thee.

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction

Genesis 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. 8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

The Carnal Mind, likened to a SERPENT as poison/deceit is under it's tongue, was given the reality of the FEAR OF DEATH, the carnal mind would lick the dust like a serpent, having to serve it's flesh in order to live. Given all manner of fear to preserve one's life, fear of starvation, fear of wild animals, fear of disease, fear of the sword, fear of the weather...etc.

Jesus quoted Deut 8, where "man cannot live on bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of God's mouth", and it is only Him that we should fear, as there is no other god, it is Him that can bring forth darkness and curse. You are told that Jesus overcame, all our lifetime "man has been in BONDAGE to the FEAR OF DEATH", made to serve the flesh naturally in order to live.

Such is the enmity, the enmity between man and God, between the serpent's seed (carnal mind, that by nature is to serve the flesh in order to live) and the woman's seed (Christ, spiritual mind that lives to serve the will of God). Jesus overcome, he condemned sin in the flesh, he did not give into temptation and the fear of death. Jesus was anointed with God's Spirit, where God directed all his ways, causing him to overcome, not have faith in his own carnal mind that wants to serve the flesh in order to live, but to have perfect faith in God.

 

[Jodi]

Hi Giuliano,

YOU:Note if you will when Satan shows up in the Bible.

ME: "When Satan shows up in the bible" does not fit at all my understanding. Satan means adversary, it's not some name of one being, or one supernatural force that makes up multiple wicked spirits. YLT doesn't even use the word Satan, but only adversary/one who opposes, withstands. Each passage with the word adversary you look at the context to identify WHO the adversary is. In some cases the adversary is God and His messengers unto man, sometimes it's men against other men. This is the same for Devil/diabolos which means slanderer/deceiver, and when you read that word you look at the surrounding context to identify WHO the slanderer is.

The men responsible for crucifying Jesus, and thereafter other men who persecuted his followers, were all adversaries, they were slanderers. Their spirits were wicked as they were of a carnal mind. Jesus calls Peter adversary because he had in his MIND the things OF MEN. Wicked men and their governments/armies today are also adversaries and slanders full of deceit, they are of the old man, the old serpent, all of the same force that drives them to do evil, their carnal minds.

"The DEVIL is coming after you", this could apply to any man, any man whose spirit is wicked as he follows only after his carnal mind, the imagination of his heart that invents ways to serve the flesh that are not according to God's way.

 

[Jodi]

Giuliano,

Thanks for reply to my posts.

You say many things that I do agree with and some things that I don't. I hope to have some time later today to read through your posts more thoroughly and reply back to more of what you have said.

 

[Jodi]

Hi Nancy,

You gave this scripture,

1 Peter 5:8 "Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil (DIABOLOS/FALSE ACCUSER) prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.

I responded giving you many scriptures so that those scriptures could be applied to the above scripture and you could identify who the devil is who prowls around like a lion.

MAN is called a roaring lion in scripture, a lion knows only his carnal nature and follows that nature. You are given a list of the WORKS of the FLESH, you are told that man deceives out of the imagination of his own heart.

MAN is called a roaring lion, biblical FACT. Now can you produce one scripture where a fallen angel/celestial messenger or some wicked rebel spirit is called a lion?

MEN crucified Jesus, THEY SLANDERED Jesus. The Pharisees were like lions just waiting for Jesus to say something or do something so they could bring up accusations against him.

Give me one scripture that says wicked rebel spirits/fallen angels influence/possess people's minds so that they will incite false accusations against others. I suppose you might also like to tell me that they did it not for their own personal gain, not out of their own lustful desires to serve themselves, not out of the heart of their own imagination, but because they worship demons and just gladly want to obey them.

All you have Nancy are scriptures where you define the devil and satan according to a man made doctrine. You don't apply scripture to scripture.

I can address ALL of your scriptures that you say support you, support your doctrine. I will give you scriptures to apply to those scriptures.

I previously posted many many scriptures to show you what the clear given biblical truth is, as to what causes a man to sin. NONE of those passages have anything whatsoever to do with fallen "celestial" messengers. But you just want to write off all those passages and NOT apply them.

 

[Nancy]

Hi Nancy,

You gave this scripture,

1 Peter 5:8 "Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil (DIABOLOS/FALSE ACCUSER) prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.

I responded giving you many scriptures so that those scriptures could be applied to the above scripture and you could identify who the devil is who prowls around like a lion.

MAN is called a roaring lion in scripture, a lion knows only his carnal nature and follows that nature. You are given a list of the WORKS of the FLESH, you are told that man deceives out of the imagination of his own heart.

MAN is called a roaring lion, biblical FACT. Now can you produce one scripture where a fallen angel/celestial messenger or some wicked rebel spirit is called a lion?

MEN crucified Jesus, THEY SLANDERED Jesus. The Pharisees were like lions just waiting for Jesus to say something or do something so they could bring up accusations against him.

Give me one scripture that says wicked rebel spirits/fallen angels influence/possess people's minds so that they will incite false accusations against others. I suppose you might also like to tell me that they did it not for their own personal gain, not out of their own lustful desires to serve themselves, not out of the heart of their own imagination, but because they worship demons and just gladly want to obey them.

All you have Nancy are scriptures where you define the devil and satan according to a man made doctrine. You don't apply scripture to scripture.

I can address ALL of your scriptures that you say support you, support your doctrine. I will give you scriptures to apply to those scriptures.

I previously posted many many scriptures to show you what the clear given biblical truth is, as to what causes a man to sin. NONE of those passages have anything whatsoever to do with fallen "celestial" messengers. But you just want to right off all those passages and NOT apply them.

Believe what you will, I respect that. I will no longer be communicating here as it will just go round and round. If the Lord shows me different, then I will repent of that...my mind is so very tired of all this back and forth...we have a right to believe what we all see in the Word.
God Bless your walk.

 

[Jodi]

What passages do you mean which say they are only the product of our imagination? Such passages can often be red more than one way. What I will say is that there are entities -- or so-called gods -- which men ignorantly worship as God. People call them fallen, deluded, rebellious. In the end these entities will be restored to their proper stations. The "gods" of the Gentiles fell. It might be better to call them the Guardian Angels of the nations; but when they began to be worshiped as God Himself, they were in rebellion, and the people of the nations lost their connection with the One True God. Those "gods" will be brought back into harmony with Heaven someday as Micah wrote:

Micah 4:5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the Lord our God for ever and ever.

That can be read impersonally. If I jump off a cliff and die, you could say God killed me since God made the law of gravity. What we call blessings and cursings are often not God actively doing anything but rather His laws working.

Thus God warned Adam and Eve of what would happen to them if they ate of the forbidden fruit. We should not believe God got angry and cursed them because He is like a human male who goes into a rage if someone disobeys him.

Only God Himself is perfect. Angels by themselves are not. They remain in a state of perfection only when in communion with God, acting in complete harmony. I realize we should not take what Eliphaz says too seriously in the book of Job since his ideas are often wrong; but he said:

Job 4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
18 Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly:
We should not forget that God gave dominion of the earth to man. Man is much more powerful spiritually than most people think. God gave that dominion to man, and God's gifts are "without repentance."

What you may not be seeing is how men help "create" false gods by worshiping them and imagining these false gods have power on their own. What we believe in often is what seems real (and becomes real) to us. All sorts of evil can be imagined by humans and then become true. There is a "trick" involved too -- where the spirit without a human body convinces the humans that he is a god with lots of power. The humans who then say this "demon" has power has in fact given it power. Man's dominion over the earth is handed over to the demonic.

Hi Giuliano,

There is so much to respond to on this thread, and unfortunately lately I have been swamped with work I haven't been able to post.

God says that the gods of the Gentiles are not to be feared because they cannot do good nor bad, they can't walk or talk, they are a work of man's OWN imagination, they are FAKE, they DO NOT EXIST.

Jeremiah 10:5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good...14 Every man is brutish in his knowledge: every founder is confounded by the graven image: for his molten image is falsehood, and there is no breath in them. 15 They are vanity, and the work of errors: in the time of their visitation they shall perish.

In Job the word translated as ANGEL is Mal'ak and it means MESSENGER, you have to look at the context of the passage to decide if it's a celestial messenger or a human messenger. KJ The word Mal'ak/MESSENGER is translated 111 times as angel and 98 times as messenger. YLT always translates it as messenger only.

Job 4:17 `Is mortal man than God more righteous? Than his Maker is a man cleaner? 18 Lo, in His servants He putteth no credence, Nor in His messengers setteth praise.' 19 Also -- the inhabitants of houses of clay, (Whose foundation is in the dust, They bruise them before a moth.) 20 From morning to evening are beaten down, Without any regarding, for ever they perish. 21 Hath not their excellency been removed with them? They die, and not in wisdom!

There are no celestial messengers being spoken of in this passage. The passage is speaking of MORTAL MEN.

Jeremiah 23:11 For both prophet and priest are profane; yea, in my house have I found their wickedness, saith the LORD. 12 Wherefore their way shall be unto them as slippery ways in the darkness they shall be driven on, and fall therein: for I will bring evil upon them, even the year of their visitation, saith the LORD. 13 And I have seen folly in the prophets of Samaria; they prophesied in Baal, and caused my people Israel to err. 14 I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.

2 Peter 2: 1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. 4 For if God spared not the MESSENGERS that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

The messengers in 2 Peter 2 are FALSE PROPHETS, like those of Jeremiah 23, they were in God's house and God brought forth their fall, for they prophesied LIES following THEIR OWN SPIRIT. God made these human messengers fall bringing forth their destruction, just like at Sodom and Gomorrah.

Ezekiel 13: 3 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!

Jeremiah 23: 16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD. 17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.

25 I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed. 26 How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart; 27 Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal.

31 Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith. 32 Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD.

Giuliano, false gods are FAKE, they cannot do any good nor any bad, they are a work of LIES from man's own spirit, the works of man's own imagination. God directly tells you that false gods are FOOLISHNESS, VANITIES, FAKE, but you are trying to tell me that they are REAL and they are fallen angels? Please reconsider given the above passages.

Prophets in the LORD'S HOUSE, were MESSENGERS of the LORD, but some of these messengers began to prophesy lies, tell of fake dreams, cause people to worship fake gods concocted by their own imaginations. These prophets with their doctrines were a false LIGHT bringing the people into darkness. The LORD brought them DOWN, He caused them to FALL, made like that of Sodom and Gomorrah, and they are reserved to awake in the second resurrection, the resurrection of judgement.

 

[Jodi]

Hi Giuliano,

YOU: There is a "trick" involved too -- where the spirit without a human body convinces the humans that he is a god with lots of power. The humans who then say this "demon" has power has in fact given it power. Man's dominion over the earth is handed over to the demonic.


ME:
Ezekiel 28:1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying, 2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God: 3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee: 4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures: 5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches: 6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; 7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. 8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas. 9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.

12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. 13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

There is NOT ONE SINGLE scripture that says celestial entities (demons) trick men to think they are gods and cause men to become vein and sin. There are many, many passages which I have listed several prior that tell you EXACTLY what causes a man to sin. God gave man his OWN IMAGINATION, we don't need the imagination of celestial entities to put evil thoughts into our hearts, our OWN IMAGINATIONS are very capable on their own of doing it. Sin is a WORK OF the flesh, a work of the human spirit, not the work of celestial rebel entities that then the human spirit is tricked by.

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust (desire), and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Jeremiah 18:12 And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.

1 Cor 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

Phil 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.

Jude 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts (desires).

 

[Nancy]

What exactly do "high places" mean in this verse?:

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Ephesians 6:12

 

[Jay Ross]

What exactly do "high places" mean in this verse?:

My understanding is "heaven" which God is going to clean out in our near future and imprison them, the wicked fallen heavenly hosts, for 1,000 years in the Bottomless pit. Isa 24:21-22.

 

[Giuliano]

Hi Giuliano,

There is so much to respond to on this thread, and unfortunately lately I have been swamped with work I haven't been able to post.

God says that the gods of the Gentiles are not to be feared because they cannot do good nor bad, they can't walk or talk, they are a work of man's OWN imagination, they are FAKE, they DO NOT EXIST.

Jeremiah 10:5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good...14 Every man is brutish in his knowledge: every founder is confounded by the graven image: for his molten image is falsehood, and there is no breath in them. 15 They are vanity, and the work of errors: in the time of their visitation they shall perish.

In Job the word translated as ANGEL is Mal'ak and it means MESSENGER, you have to look at the context of the passage to decide if it's a celestial messenger or a human messenger. KJ The word Mal'ak/MESSENGER is translated 111 times as angel and 98 times as messenger. YLT always translates it as messenger only.

Job 4:17 `Is mortal man than God more righteous? Than his Maker is a man cleaner? 18 Lo, in His servants He putteth no credence, Nor in His messengers setteth praise.' 19 Also -- the inhabitants of houses of clay, (Whose foundation is in the dust, They bruise them before a moth.) 20 From morning to evening are beaten down, Without any regarding, for ever they perish. 21 Hath not their excellency been removed with them? They die, and not in wisdom!

There are no celestial messengers being spoken of in this passage. The passage is speaking of MORTAL MEN.

Jeremiah 23:11 For both prophet and priest are profane; yea, in my house have I found their wickedness, saith the LORD. 12 Wherefore their way shall be unto them as slippery ways in the darkness they shall be driven on, and fall therein: for I will bring evil upon them, even the year of their visitation, saith the LORD. 13 And I have seen folly in the prophets of Samaria; they prophesied in Baal, and caused my people Israel to err. 14 I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.

2 Peter 2: 1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. 4 For if God spared not the MESSENGERS that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

The messengers in 2 Peter 2 are FALSE PROPHETS, like those of Jeremiah 23, they were in God's house and God brought forth their fall, just like those of Sodom and Gomorrha for they prophesied LIES following THEIR OWN SPIRIT.

Ezekiel 13: 3 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!

Jeremiah 23: 16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD. 17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.

25 I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed. 26 How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart; 27 Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal.

31 Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith. 32 Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD.

Giuliano, false gods are FAKE, they cannot do any good nor any bad, they are a work of LIES from man's own spirit, the works of man's own imagination. God directly tells you that false gods are FOOLISHNESS, VANITIES, FAKE, but you are trying to tell me that they are REAL and they are fallen angels? Please reconsider given the above passages.

Prophets in the LORD'S HOUSE, were MESSENGERS of the LORD, but some of these messengers began to prophesy lies, tell of fake dreams, cause people to worship fake gods concocted by their own imaginations. These prophets with their doctrines were a false LIGHT bringing the people into darkness. The LORD brought them DOWN, He caused them to FALL, made like that of Sodom and Gomorrah, and they are reserved to awake in the second resurrection, the resurrection of judgement.

So people can go bad when they're in bodies; but spirits not in human bodies can't go bad?

What is your opinion about the passage in Exodus where the LORD tried to kill Moses?

PS I find the red letters mixed in with the black distracting. Your intention may be to emphasize certain words, but it confuses me.