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Featured Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church?

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by aspen, Aug 5, 2019.

  1. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    I think it's more the influence of the Scriptures and prayer that may stay with a child for possible later blessing, rather than whether s/he has been sprinkled as an infant.
     
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  2. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    Water Baptism is something MEN CAN OBSERVE...
    NO ONE SEES a man receiving a restored soul.
    NO ONE SEES a man receiving a new heart, Gods Seed, a reborn spirit.

    The big picture is....the nature of mankind is SEEING IS Believing. Men can attach the observance of Water Baptism to whatever they want....drowning in death, raised to life...joining the Church...Holy Spirit Baptism....blah, blah.

    Water Baptism is a scheduled ceremony....for men to SEE as "witnesses" that that person has become saved and born again.

    The Literal (Baptism of the Holy Spirit), when ONE receiving the Spirit of God WITHIN the person and the rebirth and receiving of Salvation happens PRYOR to the ceremony staged for men to SEE.

    Glory to God,
    Taken
     
  3. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    Are you really that dense??

    Elisha turned down a PAYMENT for healing Naaman. He didn’t accept the gift/payment because it was GOD who healed Naaman – not Elisha.

    John Paul II simply received a gift from a from an Islamic leader that he met with.

    Apples and oranges . . .
     
  4. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    It's not "my theory". - it's what CHRIST prescribed.

    CHRIST said that we are born again of WATER and Spirit (John 3:5). We are not born again of just water and He made NO provision of being born again from just the Spirit.
    The water is OUR participationOUR obedience in the process.

    Without it – you’re NOT born again.
     
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  5. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    This is hilarious.

    In your ignorance, you’ve used the Catechism in a desperate attempt to debunk . . . the CATECHISM.
    Complete nonsense.

    Paragraphs 847 and 848 regarding Invincible Ignorance go HAND-IN-HAND with this paragraph (3) that you presented.
    They're not at odds with each other.
     
  6. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    As usual – your response is not only long and psychotic – is completely impotent and ignorant.

    The following verses assure us that you can be born again – and later turn away from God and LOSE your “secure” position - 1 Cor. 9:27, Hebrews 6:4-6, Hebrews 10:26-28, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Matt. 15:13, Matt. 24:13, Rev. 22:19.

    STUDY YOUR BIBLE . . .
     
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  7. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    I see, you think both non-catholics and Catholics are invincible. Okay.
     
  8. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    No – YOU just don’t know how to read . . .

    It’s not the PERSON who is invincible.
    It’s the IGNORANCE that must be invincible for a person to fall into this category.

    It’s really NOT that difficult to understand – for most people, that is . . .
     
  9. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    I must admit I still don't understand it. If my ignorance is invincible, that would mean the Catholic Church can't beat it or me.
     
  10. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    Correct me if I’m wrong, but since you’re on this site – I’m assuming that you’re an adult.

    I’ve explained this to grade school children who were able to grasp this concept FAR quicker than it has taken to explain it to you – but here goes again . . .

    Invincible Ignorance refers to the IGNORANCE of Christ and His Church that a person has – NOT the person himself.. NOT every person was raised Catholic. NOT every person has been exposed to Catholic teaching. There are some people who never heard the Gospel, period.

    THESE are some of the people who may fall into the category of invincible ignorance.

    HOWEVER, if you had bothered to read paragraphs 847 & 848 of the Catechism – you would see that there is a caveat:

    The person must ALSO: “… nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience.”

    Invincible Ignorance is NOT about the Church not being able to “conquer” anything.
    It’s about the level of knowledge that a person has regarding Christ and His Church.

    Did that finally sink in – or should I get one of my 6th grade student to explain it?
     
  11. epostle

    epostle Active Member

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    In moral theology, ignorance is defined as a lack of knowledge that a person ought to have. Ignorance is distinguished from mere nescience, which is a lack of knowledge that a person has no need of. For example, a person who did not know the square root of 1429 would be ignorant of it if he were taking a test that required him to know the answer, but he would be nescient of it if performing a task that didn't require the number.

    Moral theology divides ignorance into a number of categories. The two I will consider here are invincible and vincible. Ignorance is invincible if a person could not remove it by applying reasonable diligence in determining the answer. Ignorance is vincible if a person could remove it by applying reasonable diligence. Reasonable diligence, in turn, is that diligence that a conscientious person would display in seeking the correct answer to a question given
    (a) the gravity of the question and
    (b) his particular resources.


    The gravity of a question is determined by how great a need the person has to know the answer. The answers to fundamental questions (how to save one's soul, how to preserve one's life) have grave weight. The answers to minor questions (the solution to a crossword puzzle) typically have light weight.

    The particular resources a person has include
    (a) the ease with which he can obtain the information necessary to determine the answer (e.g., a man with a good textbook on the subject may be able to find the information with greater ease than a man who lacks such a textbook) and (b) the ease with which he can make an accurate evaluation of the evidence once it is in his possession (e.g., a smart man may be able to evaluate the evidence with greater ease than an ordinary man).

    The graver the question and the greater the resources available, the more diligence is needed to qualify as reasonable. The lighter the question and the fewer the resources available, the less diligence is needed to qualify as reasonable.

    Read more: https://www.catholicfidelity.com/apologetics-topics/justification-salvation/invincible-ignorance-by-james-akin/
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2019
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  12. Philip James

    Philip James Well-Known Member

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    The more that we have been given, the more is expected of us...

    Peace be with you!
     
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  13. epostle

    epostle Active Member

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    The education of the conscience is a lifelong task. From the earliest years, it awakens the child to the knowledge and practice of the interior law recognized by conscience. Prudent education teaches virtue; it prevents or cures fear, selfishness and pride, resentment arising from guilt, and feelings of complacency, born of human weakness and faults. The education of the conscience guarantees freedom and engenders peace of heart.
    Catechism of the Catholic Church - Moral conscience
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2019
  14. prism

    prism Blood-Soaked

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    Again...

    Matthew 15:14 (KJV) Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
     
  15. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    That explains some things, and I thank you for it. I remain somewhat confused by something written earlier in this thread. Would you say that "most Protestants" fall into the "invincible ignorance" category? That was stated earlier in Post 515.

    Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church?
     
  16. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    While I'm not a Catholic, I see this continuing education of the conscience a very good thing; and someone who has a good priest can get a lot of help in doing it during Confession. It can be too easy to let some things ride without giving our consciences more scrutiny if we try to do it by ourselves.
     
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  17. prism

    prism Blood-Soaked

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    Like I pointed out earlier, a neihborhood of baptized devils refutes your theory and the 'Church Fathers' you attempt to exalt.
    Believe and be baptized is the command. The same holds true for 'households'. You bring infants to be baptized assuming they believe, thus nullifying the command 'believe and be baptized'.
     
  18. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    Ignorance does not exist in a vacuum. People can know or not know. You can't separate knowing or not knowing from people. If I have knowledge, it means I know something. If I have ignorance, it means I don't know and am ignorant. That seems logical to me.

    Why call it invincible then?
    That could be corrected in many cases by education if the person was willing. If he was unwilling, I'd call that willful ignorance.

    Your explanation did not help at all. Maybe a child could explain it better.
     
  19. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    And YOUR problem is context.

    The “ignorance” of the Pharisees that Jesus was referring to was an ignorance that they CHOSE – not one of circumstance. Some people reject God and choose not to be knowledgeable of Him.

    If you don’t understand the context of what is being spoken of in Scripture – you will LOSE the entire point.

    This is why we have tens of thousands of perpetually-splintering Protestant sects that ALL teach different doctrines yet ALL claim that they got it “right out of the Bible” . . .
     
  20. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    Wrong.

    Paul compares Baptism in the New Covenant with Circumcision in the Old Covenant. When infants were circumcised in the Old Covenant, it was done so by the faith of their parents to raise the child in accordance with the Laws of the Jewish faith.

    Likewise, the Catholic Church teaches that infant Baptism in the New Covenant is done so by the faith of the parents to raise the child according to the Church.

    NOWHERE in the New Testament does it say that ONLY those of a certain age or consent can be baptized. On the day of Pentecost, Peter spoke to the crowds and said:

    Acts 2:39
    For the promise is for you and for your children
    and for all who are far off, EVERYONE whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”


    Paul uses the terms, “circumcision of the heart” and the “circumcision of Christ” (Romans 2:29, Col. 2:12-17) to describe the reality of circumcision being a spiritually inward act, not merely an outward sign. The Old Testament type that WAS circumcision is NOW baptism. And, whereas, circumcision was only applied to male Jews – baptism applies to ALL in the Christian family.
     
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