Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church?

[BreadOfLife]

Go back and read the quote from Cardinal Newman.

Uhhhhh, you link leads to an 8600-word essay. You need ALL 8600 words to make your point??

Perhaps YOU can just cut to the chase?

Good grief . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Interesting. I did not know he posted on Catholic forums; but then I never was on one.

You guys are talking about 2 different people.
I suspect YOU are talking about Michael Voris, whereas, GG is referring to a Catholic forum poster named, "ChurchMilitant".

 

[BreadOfLife]

Receiving communion in the state of on-going mortal sin is a canon law?

OR,,,is it a matter or morals and faith?

If I cannot receive communion in a state of mortal sin one day....

And the next day I can....
This is not a change in doctrine?

I don't plan on debating this.
If you write back, I'll post one link and then I'm done.
(you shouldn't need a link. this is obviously a change in doctrine).

Deciding who CAN and who CAN'T receive the Eucharist has always been a matter if discipline.
And, no matter how much YOU want it to be a doctrinal matter - it will ALWAYS be a matter of discipline . . .

 

[Giuliano]

Uhhhhh, you link leads to an 8600-word essay. You need ALL 8600 words to make your point??

Perhaps YOU can just cut to the chase?

Good grief . . .

I said read the quote, not the whole article. Didn't you read the quote the first time I gave it? Here, I repeat that post that has both the link and the quote.

Newman Reader - Development of Christian Doctrine - Chapter 8

The example set by St. Gregory in an age of persecution was impetuously followed when a time of peace succeeded. In the course of the fourth century two movements or developments spread over the face of Christendom, with a rapidity characteristic of the Church; the one ascetic, the other ritual or ceremonial. We are told in various ways by Eusebius, that Constantine, in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen, transferred into it the outward ornaments to which they had been accustomed in their own. It is not necessary to go into a subject which the diligence of Protestant writers has made familiar to most of us. The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness; holy water; asylums; holydays and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on the fields; sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleison, are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by their adoption into the Church.

 

[Giuliano]

You guys are talking about 2 different people.
I suspect YOU are talking about Michael Voris, whereas, GG is referring to a Catholic forum poster named, "ChurchMilitant".

I am not familiar with the poster on Catholic forums, so I can't comment on that. You're right, Voris is the guy at Church Militant, of course.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I am not familiar with the poster on Catholic forums, so I can't comment on that. You're right, Voris is the guy at Church Militant, of course.

I have had many conversations with the online poster ChurchMilitant and have visited his website as many times.
Good guy.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I said read the quote, not the whole article. Didn't you read the quote the first time I gave it? Here, I repeat that post that has both the link and the quote.

Newman Reader - Development of Christian Doctrine - Chapter 8

The example set by St. Gregory in an age of persecution was impetuously followed when a time of peace succeeded. In the course of the fourth century two movements or developments spread over the face of Christendom, with a rapidity characteristic of the Church; the one ascetic, the other ritual or ceremonial. We are told in various ways by Eusebius, that Constantine, in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen, transferred into it the outward ornaments to which they had been accustomed in their own. It is not necessary to go into a subject which the diligence of Protestant writers has made familiar to most of us. The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness; holy water; asylums; holydays and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on the fields; sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleison, are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by their adoption into the Church.

I still don't think that this shows that the Church "changed" because of the clamoring of the people.
So, because some practices supposedly developed over time - this was due to the "urging" of the masses??
This simply shows the development of traditions.

Pretty weak case . . .

 

[Giuliano]

I still don't think that this shows that the Church "changed" because of the clamoring of the people.
So, because some practices supposedly developed over time - this was due to the "urging" of the masses??
This simply shows the development of traditions.

Pretty weak case . . .

. . . Constantine, in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen, transferred into it the outward ornaments to which they had been accustomed in their own.

 

[BreadOfLife]

. . . Constantine, in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen, transferred into it the outward ornaments to which they had been accustomed in their own.

Constantine didn't run the Church - and all of that stuff is based largely on legend.
BUT - let's allow it for the sake of argument. Even IF Constantine suggested these traditions (small "t") - these can HARDLY conflated with "changing" the Church.

Did the Church hijack some pagan practices and "Christianize" them? History seems to support this. HOWEVER - the reasons were twofold:
a) To usurp their original meanings and intent
b) to converting pagans.

When was the last time you heard of ANYBODY crediting a particular pagan god with wedding rings??
Or the Kyrie Elaison?
Or a candle??
Or Holy Water??

Get my drift?

 

[Philip James]

Why can't the Catholic Church hierarchy make up their minds what they stand for

Haha, that's funny...

The Church has always taught that homosexuality is intrinsicley disordered.

Any bishop teaching otherwise has automatically excommunicated himself by force of law.

Peace!

 

[Philip James]

Constantine didn't run the Church - and all of that stuff is based largely on legend.
BUT - let's allow it for the sake of argument. Even IF Constantine suggested these traditions (small "t") - these can HARDLY conflated with "changing" the Church.

Did the Church hijack some pagan practices and "Christianize" them? History seems to support this. HOWEVER - the reasons were twofold:
a) To usurp their original meanings and intent
b) to converting pagans.

When was the last time you heard of ANYBODY crediting a particular pagan god with wedding rings??
Or the Kyrie Elaison?
Or a candle??
Or Holy Water??

Get my drift?

' Capture every thought for Christ!'

Peace be with you!

 

[Giuliano]

Constantine didn't run the Church - and all of that stuff is based largely on legend.
BUT - let's allow it for the sake of argument. Even IF Constantine suggested these traditions (small "t") - these can HARDLY conflated with "changing" the Church.

Did the Church hijack some pagan practices and "Christianize" them? History seems to support this. HOWEVER - the reasons were twofold:
a) To usurp their original meanings and intent
b) to converting pagans.

When was the last time you heard of ANYBODY crediting a particular pagan god with wedding rings??
Or the Kyrie Elaison?
Or a candle??
Or Holy Water??

Get my drift?

Take it up with Cardinal Newman.

Maybe the Catholic Church should allow libations of animal blood as one Catholic Archbishop suggested in 2000? Think of all the pagans who might convert.

Let Africans Honor Ancestors with Blood Libations in Mass Says Bishop

A Roman Catholic archbishop in South Africa has suggested that a libation of blood—a ritual pouring as a symbolic sacrifice honoring the ancestors of black Africans—should be incorporated into local Catholic liturgies such as the Mass. Archbishop Buti Tlhagale, of Bloemfontein, recently raised the issue in an article in South Africa's Catholic weekly publication, The Southern Cross."Sacrifice to the ancestors continues to be a very common practice among Africans," Archbishop Tlhagale said. "The slaughtering of an animal—cow or sheep—takes place wherever there is a funeral or a marriage feast, or in times of illness, unemployment, family feuds or the birth of a child."The practice should be considered within the context of inculturation, according to which local, indigenous culture and values are a means of presenting, reformulating and living the Christian faith, he suggested. In an interview with Ecumenical News International (ENI), Archbishop Tlhagale said that white Christians who balked at the idea of blood libations "are not talking from the same experiences" as black Africans. "There is a clashing of cultures. All I'm trying to argue is that even sophisticated black Christians slaughter animals as part of their tradition of communing with their ancestors at important occasions in their lives."Is there a way to integrate this custom with their Christian belief as a step towards meaningful inculturation?" he asked.The archbishop told The Southern Cross that he was not suggesting reverting to Old Testament times (when the Jewish people sometimes performed animal sacrifices), but the custom of spilling blood "is alive [in Africa], and cannot be ignored in the context of inculturation."

 

[Giuliano]

Haha, that's funny...

The Church has always taught that homosexuality is intrinsicley disordered.

Any bishop teaching otherwise has automatically excommunicated himself by force of law.

Peace!

Even if the Pope just made one a Cardinal?

 

[epostle]

. . . Constantine, in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen, transferred into it the outward ornaments to which they had been accustomed in their own.

So what. Wedding rings are of pagan origin, outward ornaments, whose origins are so long forgotten, the pagan influence is a meaningless fallacy. But wedding rings are not meaningless. Neither are Catholic customs and rubrics that the ignorant make a fuss about.
Is Catholicism Pagan?

 

[Giuliano]

So what. Wedding rings are of pagan origin, outward ornaments, whose origins are so long forgotten, it's meaningless. But wedding rings are not meaningless. Neither are Catholic customs and rubrics that the ignorant make a fuss about.

It goes back to a claim Bread of Life made a few pages ago.

Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church?

Why should the Body of Christ “change” for anybody??
The change must come from the individual – not the Church.

If a priest sins – HE needs to change – not the Church. The same is true for every Protestant minister.
You have bizarre ideas about what the Church is . . .

Then I posted the quote from Cardinal Newman.

Newman Reader - Development of Christian Doctrine - Chapter 8

The example set by St. Gregory in an age of persecution was impetuously followed when a time of peace succeeded. In the course of the fourth century two movements or developments spread over the face of Christendom, with a rapidity characteristic of the Church; the one ascetic, the other ritual or ceremonial. We are told in various ways by Eusebius, that Constantine, in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen, transferred into it the outward ornaments to which they had been accustomed in their own. It is not necessary to go into a subject which the diligence of Protestant writers has made familiar to most of us. The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness; holy water; asylums; holydays and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on the fields; sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleison, are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by their adoption into the Church.

That is how that came up. That is all. I've no interest in talking about wedding rings; but when someone makes a false claim, then maybe wedding rings and other things need to be mentioned.

 

[epostle]

Even if the Pope just made one a Cardinal?

Do you have evidence that such cardinals the Pope appoints are actively gay with boyfriends? The Church doesn't condemn homosexuals, it's the homosexual acts that are condemned. If a clergyman engages in such sinful acts, he is violating his vows he made to God, not the Church. They add to the serious nature of the sin in the first place.

"...However, the Church also acknowledges that “[homosexuality’s] psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. . . . The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s cross the difficulties that they may encounter from their condition.

“Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection” (CCC 2357– 2359).​

Homosexuality

 

[Giuliano]

Do you have evidence that such cardinals the Pope appoints are actively gay with boyfriends? The Church doesn't condemn homosexuals, it's the homosexual acts that are condemned. If a clergyman engages in such sinful acts, he is violating his vows he made to God, not the Church. They add to the serious nature of the sin in the first place.

"...However, the Church also acknowledges that “[homosexuality’s] psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. . . . The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s cross the difficulties that they may encounter from their condition.

“Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection” (CCC 2357– 2359).​

Homosexuality

Spare me the irrelevant pious sermons.

Can you pay attention please? I never said the Pope was ordaining actively gay people with boyfriends. I'll repost the material from post #1168 on page 59:

I realize Church Militant is considered a "radical" site by some; but they had an interesting article about someone just made a Cardinal.

Francis Packs the Court

Pope Francis is packing the court ahead of the next papal conclave.

In a surprise move, Francis announced last week that 13 clerics will be added to the College of Cardinals next month — among them, several of the pontiff's key leftist allies.

Gung-ho globalist Abp. Jean-Claude Höllerich has blasted the rise of populism in Europe, calling it a catalyst for "totalitarianisms" that will "eventually devour Christianity."

Pro-migration activist Fr. Michael Czerny has slammed conservatives for backing border security, accusing them of "xenophobia and isolationism."

Homosexualist Abp. Matteo Zuppi has penned a preface for Building a Bridge, the pro-gay book by LGBT champion Fr. James Martin.

Martin hailed Zuppi's appointment, calling him "a great supporter of LGBT Catholics."

Reflecting on the appointments, Catholic World News editor Philip Lawler called them a turn to the left: "You have leading representatives of what you might call the liberal bloc in the European bishops' world, and that's the way these appointments are trending."

Once these men don their red hats on Oct. 5, the College of Cardinals will be dominated by liberals, with 67 Francis picks eligible to vote for the next pontiff versus 61 from the conservative camp.

Analysts say Pope Francis is setting the stage for the next papal conclave, maneuvering to ensure that his vision for the Church endures for generations to come.

Then this which shows how attitudes are evolving: Maltese Catholics Criticize Archbishop Scicluna’s Leadership on ‘LGBT’ Issues - CatholicCitizens.org

By Edward Pentin, National Catholic Register, March 17, 2019

VALETTA, Malta — A priest representing Pope Francis’ point man on sexual abuse in the Church, Maltese Archbishop Charles Scicluna, spoke approvingly of homosexuality as created by God and “part of his plan” to a talk show audience last week.

Appearing March 8 on the show, called Xarabank, Father Kevin Schembri, who teaches canon law at the University of Malta, also told the show’s host, Peppi Azzopardi, that God created people with “difference sexual orientations,” and that being homosexual “cannot be something bad, because he created it.”

According to an English translation of his interview transcript provided to the Register, Father Schembri, who is the archdiocesan defender of the bond, went on to say that if a person recognizes he is “a gay person as created by God, he does not need to change,” and he would actually be “harming himself” if he did not accept himself “as a gay person.”

He also said a sincere “relationship of love” between homosexuals is as “good” as a relationship of “love between heterosexual couples.”

Perhaps so, for all I know; but do they know what they stand for? What I do know is that things are clearly evolving. Sclcluna heads up the anti-abuse effort in Malta?

A week later, Archbishop Scicluna — the head of the bishops’ conference of Malta and handpicked by Pope Francis to investigate sexual abuse by clergy in Chile and elsewhere — has not responded to the public concern generated by Father Schembri’s comments.

I have to think the "gay Mafia" is still thriving inside the Catholic Church. Why can't the Catholic Church hierarchy make up their minds what they stand for?

 

[epostle]

It goes back to a claim Bread of Life made a few pages ago.
Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church?
Then I posted the quote from Cardinal Newman.
That is how that came up. That is all. I've no interest in talking about wedding rings; but when someone makes a false claim, then maybe wedding rings and other things need to be mentioned.

I'm sure you, and others, have no interest in other Newman quotes.
The Church changing her doctrines is a false claim, it's based solely on subjective opinion. Tell me something, when you quote Newman, do you just accept what you cherry pick, and ignore everything else? I can cherry pick too.

One thing at least is certain; whatever history teaches . . . at least the Christianity of history is not Protestantism. If ever there were a safe truth, it is this. And Protestantism . . . as a whole, feels it, and has felt it. This is shown in the determination . . . of dispensing with historical Christianity altogether, and of forming a Christianity from the Bible alone . . . To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant.
​

Certain liberal Protestants don't accept ANY ECF's quotes as evidence of historical belief. The radical frothing-at-the-mouth anti-Catholics are even hostile to them. So Newman's above quote may irritate a lot of Protestants, but the quote is truthful.

It seems to me you have a love/hate relationship with the historic, institutional Church.

 

[Giuliano]

I'm sure you, and others, have no interest in other Newman quotes.
The Church changing her doctrines is a false claim, it's based solely on subjective opinion. Tell me something, when you quote Newman, do you just accept what you cherry pick, and ignore everything else? I can cherry pick too.

What a complainer. You complain when I quote non-Catholic sources, and now you complain when I quote one.

One thing at least is certain; whatever history teaches . . . at least the Christianity of history is not Protestantism. If ever there were a safe truth, it is this. And Protestantism . . . as a whole, feels it, and has felt it. This is shown in the determination . . . of dispensing with historical Christianity altogether, and of forming a Christianity from the Bible alone . . . To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant.

I don't have a major problem with that quote. Why would I?
​

Certain liberal Protestants don't accept ANY ECF's quotes as evidence of historical belief. The radical frothing-at-the-mouth anti-Catholics are even hostile to them. So Newman's above quote may irritate a lot of Protestants, but the quote is truthful.

It seems to me you have a love/hate relationship with the historic, institutional Church.

It may not be fruitful to speculate or try to make the conversation about me.

 

[epostle]

Spare me the irrelevant pious sermons.

I scroll past walls of ugly text, like most people.
They would rather read something inspiring. The ones who enjoy reading ugly walls of text enjoy it because it feeds their ugliness.