1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church?

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by aspen, Aug 5, 2019.

  1. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    956
    Likes Received:
    602
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Very often when things go wrong, it's because there's not even one person willing to take responsibility for anything.
     
  2. epostle

    epostle Active Member

    Messages:
    628
    Likes Received:
    191
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    The fact remains that without the papacy (as we conceive it), the East (by Newman’s reasoning) would have likely gone into complete heresy in the first Millennium. As it was, the East was rife with Monophysitism and Monothelitism (and also to a lesser extent, Nestorianism) for many centuries: infiltrating the patriarchates in alarming proportion (and we see a clear example of that in 449).

    Some argue that the proliferation of those heresies and also rampant iconoclasm, led directly to so many large regions falling rapidly to Islam. The road was paved with these heresies.

    The East was in schism five times before 1054, as I have noted, and in all five instances (in the judgment of both sides) they were on the wrong side. Rome was right every time, with regard to these five schisms. I think that speaks volumes. Rome determines orthodoxy. History plainly reveals this. The five schisms are:

    The Arian schisms (343-98)
    The controversy over St. John Chrysostom (404-415)
    The Acacian schism (484-519)
    Concerning Monothelitism (640-681)
    Concerning Iconoclasm (726-87 and 815-43)

    This adds up to 231 out of 500 years in schism: out of communion with Rome (46% of the time). Orthodox agree that all five of these schisms were in error, according to present Orthodox teaching. The Orthodox eventually rejected Arianism and Monothelitism and Iconoclasm. They think St. John Chrysostom is a good guy (Rome defended him then, just as with St. Athanasius). The Acacian schism had to do with Monophysitism.

    Orthodoxy is not under the pope now. That changed in the eleventh century. The very fact that the more ecumenical Orthodox see it as preferable to somehow be back in communion with the pope, itself proves that Orthodoxy has lost a key proponent of historic Catholic Christianity. Otherwise, Orthodoxy would be complete in itself, and in need of no component from another Christian communion, as we view ourselves to be. Orthodoxy wouldn’t need “our” pope; it would already have one of its own, or deny that it needs one at all (even in the lesser Orthodox sense). But that is not possible in Orthodoxy because of competing jurisdictions.
    Orthodox & Catholic Ecclesiology: Possible Synthesis?

    [​IMG]

    Pope Francis has met the head of the Russian Orthodox church, Patriarch Kirill, in Cuba. The meeting marks the first encounter in history between a Roman Catholic pope and a Russian Orthodox patriarch in the nearly 1,000 years since Eastern Orthodoxy split with Rome.​
     
  3. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    956
    Likes Received:
    602
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Newman Reader - Development of Christian Doctrine - Chapter 8

    The example set by St. Gregory in an age of persecution was impetuously followed when a time of peace succeeded. In the course of the fourth century two movements or developments spread over the face of Christendom, with a rapidity characteristic of the Church; the one ascetic, the other ritual or ceremonial. We are told in various ways by Eusebius, that Constantine, in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen, transferred into it the outward ornaments to which they had been accustomed in their own. It is not necessary to go into a subject which the diligence of Protestant writers has made familiar to most of us. The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness; holy water; asylums; holydays and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on the fields; sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleison, are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by their adoption into the Church.
     
  4. epostle

    epostle Active Member

    Messages:
    628
    Likes Received:
    191
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    Guide to Understanding Basic CDF Procedures concerning Sexual Abuse Allegations

    New norms for the whole Church against those who abuse or cover up - Vatican News

    Scandal 1 was the most shameful crisis in the history of the Church
    Scandal 2 is the falsehood that nothing has been done about it.

    CLERGY SEXUAL ABUSE IS NEGLIGIBLE
    The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops latest findings on clergy sexual abuse continue to show how this problem has largely been checked.

    The 2018 Annual Report, “Findings and Recommendations on the Implementation of the Charter for the Protection of Children and Young People,” covers the period from July 1, 2017 to June 30, 2018.

    During this period, there were 26 new allegations involving current minors. But only three were substantiated (all three men were removed from ministry). Seven were unsubstantiated; three were unable to be proven; two were referred to a religious order; two were reported as unknown; and three were boundary violations, not instances of sexual abuse.

    If we consider the three cases that were substantiated, this means that only .006 percent of the 50,648 members of the clergy had a substantiated accusation made against him in that one-year period. Everyone will agree that ideally the figure should be .000, but fair-minded people will conclude that .006 percent is a negligible amount.
    CLERGY SEXUAL ABUSE IS NEGLIGIBLE
    No institution, public or private, can beat those numbers. This is not reported in main stream media.

    [​IMG]


    Because the Canon of Scripture was being challenged. Find me a Protestant 66 book canon that was used and studied before the 14th century. There is no record of such a canon because it didn't exist in that time period. To me, it looks like another man made tradition.
     
    GodsGrace likes this.
  5. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,090
    Likes Received:
    741
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Ahh, the proverbial sweep it under the rug. That is no service to the Church. I see it on local news and I see it on national news, I read about in the papers. 10 new sex abuse lawsuits against Catholic diocese in Brooklyn amid Child Victims Act. St. Louis Archdiocese names 64 priests credibly accused of sexually abusing children or possessing child porn. More Than 300 Catholic Clergy in New Jersey Have Been Accused of Sex Abuse. As I said, all eyes on the Catholic Church. Granted perception can magnify and distort the facts, but there is a real problem and the Church cannot afford to look complacent. Discreet investigations will look like the Church is sweeping it under the rug. The clock is ticking! It is not time to deny it has happening and it is not the time for excuses. And I do not want to discuss this topic anymore.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
  6. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,146
    Likes Received:
    5,006
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Italy
    Agreed.
    This pope is trying to get away from that and this is the tone he is setting.
    I think the problem is that catholics themselves are all upset over doctrine being changed.
    It seems they don't want the change...at least the ones over here.
    (don't know what's going on in the states).
     
    Grailhunter likes this.
  7. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,146
    Likes Received:
    5,006
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Italy
    Love the news image!
    That's how it is, unless one doesn't look into news in different ways, he will not know the truth.
     
  8. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,090
    Likes Received:
    741
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Well there is certain about of independence in the US, but still they are more concerned with birth control and homosexuality. And South America is almost its own entity.
     
  9. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,146
    Likes Received:
    5,006
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Italy
    No birth control problems here.
    No one has children...maybe one...and the church has nothing to say.

    A lot said re the whole gender thing.
    At least the CC is not giving in to that.

    (except for the priests that are homosxl)
     
    Giuliano and Grailhunter like this.
  10. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,631
    Likes Received:
    1,232
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    And once again, you’re NOT listening.

    If you pastor molests some kids at Sunday school is it HIS fault – or YOURS and the rest of your congregation?

    If EVERYBODY in the congregation knew about it and remained silent – then it would be your fault.

    However – what happened in the Catholic Church would have to become known by 1.2 BILLION people for it to be the “Church’s fault”. The Church is NOT simply its hierarchy. The Body of Christ is the entire Church.
     
    Marymog likes this.
  11. epostle

    epostle Active Member

    Messages:
    628
    Likes Received:
    191
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    Neither do I, but I substantiate my posts with facts, you just keep backing the media's agenda with unproven assertions. You don't want us to defend ourselves, a form of fascism. Stop promoting media distortions, and I will stop refuting them.
    Guide to Understanding Basic CDF Procedures concerning Sexual Abuse Allegations

    New norms for the whole Church against those who abuse or cover up - Vatican News
    To say these directives are "sweeping it under the rug" is plain blindness. It's a lie, and part of Scandal 2, pretending that nothing has been done, which is a BIG lie. You are a media zombie, a clear case of Scandal 2. Catholics don't deny Scandal 1. Every study by the John Jay researchers shows that most of the abuse took place between 1965-1985, 35-45 years ago, and falsely reported by the media as recent, which is what you do.
    SHINING THE LIGHT ON "SPOTLIGHT"

    CLERGY ABUSE SURVEY SHOWS MEDIA INFLUENCE
    Catholic League president Bill Donohue comments on a new Pew survey:

    The Pew Research Center released the findings of a new survey this week on Catholic clergy sexual abuse. Most were predictable, but some were not.

    The survey found that 8 in 10 Americans say that Catholic clergy sexual abuse is an “ongoing problem,” while only 12% say that these problems “happened in the past and mostly don’t happen anymore”; a quarter of Catholics, 24%, hold to the latter interpretation. It was also found that 61% of Catholics say that sexual misconduct is just as common among the clergy of other religions; 51% of non-Catholics think the problem is disproportionately Catholic.

    It would be astonishing if the data were otherwise. The steady drumbeat of bad news, mostly traceable to the Pennsylvania grand jury report last summer, and the ouster of Theodore McCarrick (formerly a cardinal), account for the outcome. The latter news coverage was entirely justified; the former was badly skewed and much of it was dishonest. To weigh the veracity of this point, consider another subject.

    If the media do not report on sexual misconduct, obviously no one will think badly of the guilty. Take the case of Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. FBI data that were recently made public show him to be a hard-drinking, bed-hopping adulterer who cheated on his wife with 40-45 other women. He also watched a pastor friend of his rape a woman and laughed about it while he did so. But thanks to the near total media blackout on this story, King’s glowing reputation remains intact.

    Circling back to the survey, what percent of the public knows that not one of the accused priests named in the Pennsylvania grand jury report had a chance to rebut the charges made against him? How many know that most of them are either dead or out of ministry?

    The fact is that Catholics are better educated about this subject than non-Catholics: more of them know that the lion’s share of the abuse took place in the past (mostly in the last century) and that it is not “ongoing.” But even there, most Catholics, three-quarters of them, are as ignorant as non-Catholics on this score. Fortunately, the survey shows that Catholics who attend Mass weekly are the most knowledgeable.

    This is encouraging. It shows that our relentless effort to tell the truth about this issue is getting through to practicing Catholics. We have constantly cited the fact that the clergy sexual abuse scandal occurred mostly between 1965 and 1985. It is not denied nor swept under the rug, as you falsely claim.

    Who else but the Catholic League undercut the media narrative on clergy sexual abuse by calculating, and making public, data taken from the latest survey of clergy sexual abuse? On June 10, we showed that .006% (3 priests) of the over 50,000 members of the clergy had a substantiated accusation made against them between June 1, 2017 and July 31, 2018. No religious or secular body can beat those numbers.

    The survey says that one-quarter of Catholics say they are going to Mass less often or are contributing less as a result of recent reports on clergy abuse. But, as the data reveal, this is much more true of non-practicing Catholics than it is of those who attend Mass weekly. This is exactly what we would expect: those who do not attend Mass regularly are more likely to digest bad news as a justification for their lassitude.

    There was one aspect of the survey that jumped out at me but has curiously garnered no attention.

    The survey found that “About one-in-ten (9%) [of the public] say they have attended a place of worship where the clergy or other religious leaders have been accused of sexual misconduct in the past five years in one or more of the following ways: an extramarital affair (6%), sexual abuse of a child (4%), verbal sexual harassment (4%) or sexual abuse of an adult (3%).”

    There was one question posed only to Catholics: “At the church you attend most regularly, has a priest been accused of engaging in sexual activity with other priests? Overall, 4% of Catholics say a priest was accused of this at their church, while the vast majority do not (90%).”

    In other words, the faithful in religions outside Catholicism have their fair share of clergy sexual misconduct issues, yet non-Catholics seem to believe that the Catholic Church basically owns this problem. Why isn’t this misperception headline news?

    Such data also prove my point. The media are shaping public opinion on the issue of clergy sexual abuse in a way that does not comport with reality.

    If what the public believes were true—that this problem is “ongoing” in the Catholic Church but not in their church—then the figure for Catholics who have learned of clergy sexual misconduct in their church should be much higher than the comparative figure for non-Catholics. Yet the opposite is true!

    This proves what I have been saying all along. Catholics, as well as non-Catholics, are being played. The truth about clergy sexual abuse is not being accurately reported. Furthermore, selective government probes and legislation are only adding to public misperceptions. These two factors constitute Scandal II. Scandal I is the original Catholic scandal. We only hear about the latter.
    CLERGY ABUSE SURVEY SHOWS MEDIA INFLUENCE

    The Pew Research Center is not a Catholic entity.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019
    BreadOfLife and Marymog like this.
  12. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,144
    Likes Received:
    528
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Thank you for this.....Well done.
     
  13. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,144
    Likes Received:
    528
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Hi GG,

    Which doctrine has changed? I am pretty good at keeping up on Church news and don't know of any doctrine that has been changed.

    Doctrine: the deposit of faith revealed by Jesus Christ (reveled truth), taught by the apostles, and handed down in their entirety by the apostles to their successors. Revealed truth cannot change!!

    Perhaps you meant another word besides doctrine? :rolleyes:
     
  14. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,631
    Likes Received:
    1,232
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Not sure what your point is.
    You were arguing that the church doesn’t “change” for anybody – then you posted this.

    What gives?
     
  15. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,631
    Likes Received:
    1,232
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Yup – the eyes of the world ARE on the Catholic Church for a reason – because its perceived wealth and the possibility of many lawyers obtaining some of that wealth.

    The plain fact is that there simply isn’t as much money – or perceived money involved in going after the many smaller Protestant sects for their sexual crimes. Many of them are smaller and aren’t insured so the prospect for getting rich becomes pretty dismal for the Lawyers. There's just not enough money in it.

    Of course – you don’t have to believe ME. Just read Pedophiles and Priests by PROTESTANT author, Philp Jenkins, who lays out the real statistics showing that the problem is FAR worse among Protestant groups.

    As I said earlier – if you believe that the hierarchy of the Catholic Church hasn’t changed over the centuries – then you are simply LYING . . .
     
  16. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,090
    Likes Received:
    741
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States

    Ok, this topic is done. My intent was to point out that they need to move on it.
     
    GodsGrace likes this.
  17. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,146
    Likes Received:
    5,006
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Italy
    What would you call these?:

    1. The hours I must refrain from eating before receiving communion (for a healthy person).
    2. Communion being received with an ongoing mortal sin.
     
  18. epostle

    epostle Active Member

    Messages:
    628
    Likes Received:
    191
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    Your presupposition that the Church hasn't "moved on it" has been demolished. That's why the topic is done.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019
    BreadOfLife likes this.
  19. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,631
    Likes Received:
    1,232
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Those are both DISCIPLINARY matters.
    YOU keep dishonestly trying to make them into doctrinal matters - and and they aren't . . .
     
  20. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,090
    Likes Received:
    741
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    No...not at all. I stated that I knew that they were investigating. My point is it not just the non-Catholics that are watching it is the Catholics. It needs to be visible because as the accusations continue to pour in and nothing is seen publicly it will look bad and I do not want the Catholic Church to look bad. Sticking your head in the sand does not help. Now please this enough of this
     
    GodsGrace likes this.
Loading...