Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church?

[bbyrd009]

I'm a little tired of this. I have friends with whom I don't agree on these things, and we manage to avoid insulting and accusing each other. Being Catholic, I don't believe someone is necessarily going to Hell for not being right theologically.

Remember the Good Samaritan. The point of that parable was only incidentally "it's important to help those in need", with the direct point being "it's better to be a heretic who loves his fellow man, than a theologically-correct believer who does not."

Let's take a clue from His words and act accordingly.

as if, huh? There are catholics and then there are catholics i guess?

Yehren observes:
You cited what men told you about God. As you learned, what you accept as the Word of God is a compilation by men, who used prayer, tradition, and scholarship to determine which books were actually the Word of God. It was generally finished by 150 AD, but was not definitively set until the Council of Trent. Because Christians, prior to Luther did not consider it to be the only source of truth about God, there were considerable differences of opinion as to which books were divinely inspired.



It's just an historical fact. No point in denying it. It's very well documented.



Calm yourself. Language like that tells people a lot about you and your motives. You are becoming abusive, because you are beginning to realize these things, and you're rebelling against it.



As I showed you, it's just historical fact. Denying it, does your case no good at all.

i guess Paul's famous v on the matter might even be read "All writings are good for instruction..."

 

[BreadOfLife]

I like the fact that you, and epostle and maybe Philip, don't know about Mary or BoL, are willing to look upon protestants, at least those who are in the faith, as brothers and sisters. I also see those Catholics who are living up to what light they have, as being my brother and sisters. They belong to God.
My doubts however very much focus on what your church officially teaches. U could quote readily offer quotes, but I think you likely know them anyway. Vatican II reaffirmed the policy held for 1500 years... That the Catholic church centre in Rome is not the brother or sister church of anyone, but the mother, and ecumenism is the movement to bring everyone back under the authority of Rome. This was dobe by force of arms in times past, and prophecy reveals such will be the same in the future. Individual Catholics I have never had an issue with except in what we believe... The hierarchy... The institution, now that is a different animal altogether. I agree with the reformers... That the institution is the Antichrist, and I can show that from scripture. Which is why God calls His people out.

I’ve never stated that Protestant Christians weren’t my brothers and sisters in Christ. I merely said that they were self-separated from the Body of Christ. This is a fact of ecclesiastical history that I cannot change. It happened – period.

HOWEVER – some of the people on this forum don’t even qualify as Protestant Christians – but as pseudo-Christians. Their doctrines have become so perverse that they no longer resemble the teachings of Christianity. They deny the deity of Christ, the Incarnation, the existence of Hell, etc.

I’m not surprised that you lied about me – just disappointed, as usual . . .

 

[ScottA]

Soooooooo, when the Church interprets Scripture – it’s the “words of men”.
BUT – when YOU interpret Scripture – it’s the Holy Spirit speaking through YOU.

I don’t know what’s worse – your Scriptural perversions or your complete and utter arrogance . . .

What is true, is true. If the church is true, it is true. If I am true, I am true.

But error is the track record of God's people, foretold, and also in fruition; and "arrogance" has always been the accusation against those who speak the truth. History repeats both.

You should have seen it coming and made a change.

 

[epostle]

The Church has NEVER recognized forced conversions as valid, even when instigated by power hungry kings. "This was dobe by force of arms in times past" is typical false history of cults that have popped up in the last 200 years. The reason they are forced to demonize the historic institutional Church is to justify their late arrival. If the sins of church members disproves Catholicism, then the killing of the Anabaptists, the witch hunts, and the suppression of the Peasants Revolt disproves Protestantism. Brokelite agrees with the reformers on one point, but thinks all of Protestantism is the false prophet. His SDA cult teaches a series of conflicting beliefs dependent on false histories. Worse, they conjure up church documents that don't exist.

Catholics of today don't hold Protestants of today accountable of the sins of their past, and to hold Catholics of today accountable for the sins of the past is just plain stupid. But it is the constant mantra of cults. Sheer stupidity.

 

[epostle]

What is true, is true. If the church is true, it is true. If I am true, I am true.

But error is the track record of God's people, foretold, and also in fruition; and "arrogance" has always been the accusation against those who speak the truth. History repeats both.

You should have seen it coming and made a change.

You have no history, Scott. "ME, the Bible and the Holy Spirit" as the one and only authority is an ideology that is not in the Bible.

 

[BreadOfLife]

What is true, is true. If the church is true, it is true. If I am true, I am true.

But error is the track record of God's people, foretold, and also in fruition; and "arrogance" has always been the accusation against those who speak the truth. History repeats both.

You should have seen it coming and made a change.

In your arrogance, you reject the words of Christ and usurp the Authority that HE gave His Church (Matt. 16:18-19, 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 20:21-23). He promised His Church at large – not individuals like YOU that the Holy Spirit would guide it to ALL truth (John 16:12-15).,

This is what Paul, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit calls the CHURCH – not the individual, the FULLNESS of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23) and the Pillar and foundation of Truth (1 Tim. 3:15).
This is why Jesus compared His very SELF to His Church (Acts 9:4-5).

And this is why an outsider like YOU just can’t seem to grasp this truth . . .

 

[ScottA]

You have no history, Scott. "ME, the Bible and the Holy Spirit" as the one and only authority is an ideology that is not in the Bible.

It is not an "ideology" but it is definitely "in the Bible." There is a name for it: "I am."

How is it that you do not know this?

 

[ScottA]

In your arrogance, you reject the words of Christ and usurp the Authority that HE gave His Church (Matt. 16:18-19, 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 20:21-23). He promised His Church at large – not individuals like YOU that the Holy Spirit would guide it to ALL truth (John 16:12-15).,

This is what Paul, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit calls the CHURCH – not the individual, the FULLNESS of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23) and the Pillar and foundation of Truth (1 Tim. 3:15).
This is why Jesus compared His very SELF to His Church (Acts 9:4-5).

And this is why an outsider like YOU just can’t seem to grasp this truth . . .

You have the biblical precedence (Acts 9:4-5), but like Paul and the Pharisees...you just can't imagine it's you. Thus, like Paul, you have been rendered blind for a time.

 

[epostle]

It is not an "ideology" but it is definitely "in the Bible." There is a name for it: "I am."

How is it that you do not know this?

"ME, the Bible and the Holy Spirit" DOES NOT EQUAL "I AM"
YOU are not HIM.

"ME, the Bible and the Holy Spirit" is a mentality that undermines the unity of Christians because supreme authority settles on the individual. It's never worked due to the absence of virtue. Read my signature.

 

[ScottA]

"ME, the Bible and the Holy Spirit" DOES NOT EQUAL "I AM"
YOU are not HIM.

Your description does not equal the truth.

 

[Yehren]

as if, huh? There are catholics and then there are catholics i guess?

The Church's position is that while other Christians might be separated from us, they remain Christians among whom the Holy Spirit inspires them, and who are our bretheren. I would hope all Catholics realize this, but if they do not, they are outside the teaching of the Church.

i guess Paul's famous v on the matter might even be read "All writings are good for instruction..."

Paul did mention that there are authoritative sources of information about God, that are not in scripture.

 

[epostle]

A virtue is a habit that perfects the powers of the soul and disposes you to do good. Catholics believe that divine grace is offered to the soul, because without God’s help, humans can’t do good on their own. Grace, which is God’s intervention, bolsters a person’s soul, providing the necessary oomph to do the right thing.

Catholics believe that virtues prepare and dispose people so that when the grace is offered, people readily recognize, accept, and cooperate with it. In other words, God’s grace is necessary, but virtues make it easier to work with.

The following four virtues (called cardinal virtues or moral virtues) are the hinges on which the rest of the moral life swings:

Prudence is basically practical common sense. It’s saying or doing the proper thing, at the proper time, and in the appropriate manner. It’s also the ability to know and judge whether to say something or do nothing at all.

Justice is the virtue that seeks to promote fair play. It’s the desire and resolve to give each person his due. It demands that you reward goodness and punish evil. Justice can be one of three different types:

• • Commutative justice is based on the principle of quid pro quo, which is Latin for this for that. Commutative justice requires, for example, that a customer pay a fair price for worthwhile goods.
    
  • Distributive justice involves the relationship between one and many — between an individual and a group — a person and the government, for example.
  • Social justice concerns the relationships between individuals and groups between one another and everyone. The common good and equal treatment are the cornerstones of social justice.
• Temperance is the virtue by which a person uses balance. It’s the good habit that allows a person to relax and have fun without crossing the line and committing sin.

• Fortitude is the ability to persevere in times of trial and tribulation — the ability to hang in there when the going gets tough. It’s courage to do the right thing no matter what the cost.

We have to work to maintain these moral values. When we are baptised, we are granted a different set of values: the theological virtues of faith, hope and love (charity) that come to us by virtue of the sacrament itself.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You have the biblical precedence (Acts 9:4-5), but like Paul and the Pharisees...you just can't imagine it's you. Thus, like Paul, you have been rendered blind for a time.

No - like Paul, my eyes have been opened to the truth (Acts 9:18).

Like I've been saying all along - YOUR perverted doctrines are somply perversions of the perversions of your Protestant Fathers in the 16th century . . .

 

[brakelite]

I like the fact that you, and epostle and maybe Philip, don't know about Mary or BoL,

I’m not surprised that you lied about me – just disappointed, as usual .

I'm not surprised you called me a liar. Par for the course. I am surprised however that you can read don't know and have it mean the opposite.

 

[ScottA]

No - like Paul, my eyes have been opened to the truth (Acts 9:18).

Like I've been saying all along - YOUR perverted doctrines are somply perversions of the perversions of your Protestant Fathers in the 16th century . . .

Yep, that's the lie you've been saying alright.

 

[bbyrd009]

ha we're all Romans i guess, thru and thru. We all require blood for sin. You guys are even doing it right now? The cutting?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Church

we vary on the def of this concept, but maybe not really by much. But maybe substantially.
"The Church" is you and me, to me. Ntmy btw

 

[Yehren]

we vary on the def of this concept, but maybe not really by much. But maybe substantially.
"The Church" is you and me, to me. Ntmy btw

The Church is all Christians, not just Roman Catholics.

 

[bbyrd009]

The Church is all Christians, not just Roman Catholics.

well, so you say, but i hafta disagree wadr. Christian is after all a very subjective label, yeh?

For instance you recog Some Guy between you and Christ, yet you consider yourself a Christian, yes?
Which i guess is prolly not pc or tactful or whatever, my apologies there; pls don't get me wrong, imo you are perfectly capable of functioning as Church, a Living Stone, but imo not even very close to Xtian, at least in many povs, was the point

 

[brakelite]

The Church is all Christians, not just Roman Catholics.

Mmmm, are you saying all Roman Catholics are Christians?

 

[BreadOfLife]

I'm not surprised you called me a liar. Par for the course. I am surprised however that you can read don't know and have it mean the opposite.

You implied that neither @Marymog nor I consider Protestants as brothers and sisters in Christ.

Unless you are completely unable to communicate in English – this is exactly what you implied.

Oh – and I never called you a “liar”.
Never called you anything . . .