Isaiah 3:14

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Giuliano

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Your houses are filled with things stolen from the poor.

Do you think this was mostly open and outright theft of things? If not, what would you think of as a corollary today? Because I'm thinking more along the lines of...cleverly hidden theft so the peoples consciences could say, "no one has caught me cheating..."

I'm looking for corollaries today. Ex: Things made in sweat shops where the workers aren't even given a fair wage for the sweat of their brow.
I checked a Jewish source I find interesting at times. I find its take on this quite interesting since it interprets poor to mean spiritually poor. Simple and good hearted people can easily be duped by unscrupulous leaders -- just as sheep can be devoured by wolves. I think it could include both spiritual and physical poverty.

I found their take on verse 12 interesting too. Isaiah says "women will rule over them", and it might be easy to use that to make a sexist point; but the Jewish source I found says it means "adulterous women" wielding power. I guess that could mean the women who like to flirt with the men and maybe do more than flirt. Some men can be led around by that kind of woman.
 
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Stan B

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And what about investing your money so that "your money makes money." Its silly. Money doesnt magically make more money. If your money grows, somewhere along the line you are making money off the sweat of someone else's brow...
I have made my living for the last 30 years from investing in the stock market, as do most of my Christian friends and family.

In essence it means being a shareholder in a number of successful businesses. I have never considered it a sin to be a part owner of a business, or being successful.
 
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RainAndIceCream

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Your houses are filled with things stolen from the poor.

Do you think this was mostly open and outright theft of things? If not, what would you think of as a corollary today? Because I'm thinking more along the lines of...cleverly hidden theft so the peoples consciences could say, "no one has caught me cheating..."

I'm looking for corollaries today. Ex: Things made in sweat shops where the workers aren't even given a fair wage for the sweat of their brow.
Let us move this to a different field than the one above where you are referring to your house first.
What would you say is the solution?
 

marks

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And what about investing your money so that "your money makes money." Its silly. Money doesnt magically make more money. If your money grows, somewhere along the line you are making money off the sweat of someone else's brow...
Yep! I wouldn't have this job except that someone with money purchased all this stuff, and leaves us here to use it all to make more money for him.
 

stunnedbygrace

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Let us move this to a different field than the one above where you are referring to your house first.
What would you say is the solution?

Well...on the one hand, I see the verse is addressed to leaders. Politicians, church leaders. On the other hand, I dont want to rely on or go the way politicians, the world and church lead. So I just kind of...reject what they all tell me I must do. I dont vote. (God sets rulers in their place and removes rulers from their place, and besides, my last choice was to vote for either the most arrogant woman imaginable or the most arrogant man imaginable.) I dont scramble to try to amass at least 2 million for retirement as they say I must. (I just rely on God.)

As for fixing it, I dont think it's possible. The beast has grown too big. And you cant really have any idea if what you are buying was made by people being paid 2.00 per day, or even by small children. It's too interwoven now.
 

RainAndIceCream

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Well...on the one hand, I see the verse is addressed to leaders. Politicians, church leaders. On the other hand, I dont want to rely on or go the way politicians, the world and church lead. So I just kind of...reject what they all tell me I must do. I dont vote. (God sets rulers in their place and removes rulers from their place, and besides, my last choice was to vote for either the most arrogant woman imaginable or the most arrogant man imaginable.) I dont scramble to try to amass at least 2 million for retirement as they say I must. (I just rely on God.)
Who said we have to seek to retire with 2 million?

Personally, I preferred the arrogance of Trump to the unprosecuted Espionage and criminality of HRC.
I want an arrogant Christian in office when he's an excellent businessman also. I know he'll strive to make history again by being the best most effective President in our history and for the good. Because his ego will not let him shirk the responsibility God and the voters have left to him. He will be remembered in history for all time, and being arrogant, he will want history to hold to a glowing report. For the posthumous glory due him by America and more importantly, in recollection by his family throughout the coming generations.
The Left tend to attack the bankruptcies in the business history of DJT, however, those too are a matter of good business.

God sets leaders in their place, this is true, however, a Constitutional Democratic Republic insures the people who have their leadership in place are responsible for whom they are led by. It isn't a Theocratic dictatorship.
Deuteronomy 1:13
"Choose for your tribes wise, understanding, and experienced men, and I will appoint them as your heads.’

As for fixing it, I dont think it's possible. The beast has grown too big. And you cant really have any idea if what you are buying was made by people being paid 2.00 per day, or even by small children. It's too interwoven now.
I would suggest for your political rhetoric in this matter to be sustained, you'd have to not be a consumer of anything offered on the market today. Which was the reason for my prior question regarding what brand computer you use.
There are things that are out of our hands in matters of trade.
Apple computer, and phones, for example, are made by slave labor. Horrifically evil practices in place during Job's life and after. Conditions so horrific that the slave laborers who live in dormitory style structures sustained by Apple, tended to commit suicide regularly from their upper floor rooms.
Apple's solution? (Even during Job's life, he knew about these tragedies) Better housing, better food, better wages, mental health counseling....no.
The installation of suicide nets to catch those who may jump in the future.

You're right, things are so interwoven now that it is hard to distinguish to be a conscientious consumer.
I remember when many things on the market were stamped, made in Japan.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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Who said we have to seek to retire with 2 million?

Personally, I preferred the arrogance of Trump to the unprosecuted Espionage and criminality of HRC.
I want an arrogant Christian in office when he's an excellent businessman also. I know he'll strive to make history again by being the best most effective President in our history and for the good. Because his ego will not let him shirk the responsibility God and the voters have left to him. He will be remembered in history for all time, and being arrogant, he will want history to hold to a glowing report. For the posthumous glory due him by America and more importantly, in recollection by his family throughout the coming generations.
The Left tend to attack the bankruptcies in the business history of DJT, however, those too are a matter of good business.

God sets leaders in their place, this is true, however, a Constitutional Democratic Republic insures the people who have their leadership in place are responsible for whom they are led by. It isn't a Theocratic dictatorship.
Deuteronomy 1:13
"Choose for your tribes wise, understanding, and experienced men, and I will appoint them as your heads.’

I would suggest for your political rhetoric in this matter to be sustained, you'd have to not be a consumer of anything offered on the market today. Which was the reason for my prior question regarding what brand computer you use.
There are things that are out of our hands in matters of trade.
Apple computer, and phones, for example, are made by slave labor. Horrifically evil practices in place during Job's life and after. Conditions so horrific that the slave laborers who live in dormitory style structures sustained by Apple, tended to commit suicide regularly from their upper floor rooms.
Apple's solution? (Even during Job's life, he knew about these tragedies) Better housing, better food, better wages, mental health counseling....no.
The installation of suicide nets to catch those who may jump in the future.

You're right, things are so interwoven now that it is hard to distinguish to be a conscientious consumer.
I remember when many things on the market were stamped, made in Japan.

I kind of get a chuckle at the simplicity I have come to but I'm sure it's annoying to others. I agree I'm responsible for who I'm led by and that's why I look to God to lead me and not the government. I will not vote. I just wont. I do not believe the will of the people in my country overpowers God, who is the one who sets leaders in their place and removes leaders. You may want an arrogant leader, I dont. But its God who determines it, no matter how much power men think they have.

If you think its political rhetoric that I dont want to grind the faces of poor people into the dirt, or be a silent party to it, so be it. You've almost persuaded me to give up my phone too...
 

RainAndIceCream

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I kind of get a chuckle at the simplicity I have come to but I'm sure it's annoying to others. I agree I'm responsible for who I'm led by and that's why I look to God to lead me and not the government. I will not vote. I just wont. I do not believe the will of the people in my country overpowers God, who is the one who sets leaders in their place and removes leaders. You may want an arrogant leader, I dont. But its God who determines it, no matter how much power men think they have.

If you think its political rhetoric that I dont want to grind the faces of poor people into the dirt, or be a silent party to it, so be it. You've almost persuaded me to give up my phone too...
Well, going by your preference to let God seat our leaders, it appears God likes 'em arrogant. And all else that Trump's critics claim of him, since it isn't we the people who are responsible for Trump being President, but God.
Now you're using inflammatory rhetoric to judge the consumer base you're part of. To put it simply, your claims about sweat shops, slave labor, mean what? When you are a consumer of the goods produced through that avenue.
It isn't logical to scream about an injustice and then be a party to it.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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Well, going by your preference to let God seat our leaders, it appears God likes 'em arrogant. And all else that Trump's critics claim of him, since it isn't we the people who are responsible for Trump being President, but God.
Now you're using inflammatory rhetoric to judge the consumer base you're part of. To put it simply, your claims about sweat shops, slave labor, mean what? When you are a consumer of the goods produced through that avenue.
It isn't logical to scream about an injustice and then be a party to it.

First of all, I'm not screaming, I'm having a conversation.

Secondly, I wouldn't say God LIKES leaders to be arrogant. I simply said God puts them in their place and removes them from their place.

Thirdly, no, I'm not using inflammatory rhetoric to judge a consumer base I'm part of, I'm just meditating on and thinking about and considering some verses and bringing them into my here and now. I can't help it if my meditations inflame you.

Lastly, whether it were or were not my preference to let God seat and unseat rulers, my preference wouldn't change the fact that He is the one who does it. I happen to believe the verse.
 
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marks

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I agree I'm responsible for who I'm led by and that's why I look to God to lead me and not the government. I will not vote. I just wont.
I don't understand your position. As leaders in the US are elected, how exactly does God put them in place? Isn't it by the voters? But you won't vote?

Much love!
 
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RainAndIceCream

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First of all, I'm not screaming, I'm having a conversation.

Secondly, I wouldn't say God LIKES leaders to be arrogant. I simply said God puts them in their place and removes them from their place.

Thirdly, no, I'm not using inflammatory rhetoric to judge a consumer base I'm part of, I'm just meditating on and thinking about and considering some verses and bringing them into my here and now. I can't help it if my meditations inflame you.

Lastly, whether it were or were not my preference to let God seat and unseat rulers, my preference wouldn't change the fact that He is the one who does it. I happen to believe the verse.
Your opinions don't inflame me. I'm simply pointing out what your rhetoric says about you and about God.
If a leader is arrogant, etc...according to your belief that you let God alone seat leaders, then God seated those leaders that are arrogant, etc... And as for Trump, he's still seated and shall be re-elected in November, God willing. And if our votes have anything to do with it.

Secondly, judging the consumer base, which is what you've done while imparting scripture as a foundation, is indicting you as a consumer as well as those you think to cast into the light of being responsible for the sweat shops and slave labor, that are responsible for consumer goods.
What your rhetoric is missing however, is your failure to take responsibility for that. And this is because you refuse to vote. That's a cop out, in my view. Claiming God seats leaders over us and that's good enough for you, not a direct quote but extrapolated from your words, is a cop out. God sets them, I'm not going to vote, I just can't, is rubbish.
You believe the verse about God seating those in power over us, which would have to include every bloody savage dictator in the history of the world, while ignoring the verses about voting. One of which I have posted prior.

Failing to vote means you're responsible for the ongoing whatever it is you criticize in America's free society. Because you don't vote in those who would actively be responsible as your representative, to change things.
Oh, but that's God's job, right? That's what your, it's God's responsibility to seat leaders, is also saying. This means, everything you wish to meditate on as what is wrong in the society you participate in, is God's doing. His sovereign will. Because you do not think you need do anything but meditate on what is, cast aspersions on what is, judge consumers for consuming goods and services provided through slave labor and sweat shops, etc...

The liberal talking points you've posted here are old. They're old because they're repeated and for years. They're repeated for years because they're given a lot of talk but no action by those who would prefer to meditate about what is wrong in society, pick your subject, while coping out when it comes to how to personally effect change. Refusing to vote for change to occur is an indicator, the speaker is fine with how things are. They just like to vent and abdicate responsibility for being part of the problem.
And such people, like yourself, always put the responsibility for change on someone else.
You consume what you claim comes from slave labor and sweat shops. Not all things do, by the way. You refuse to vote to change things, because you think God is solely responsible, which is the case when you refuse to vote, for seating the leadership that is currently in power while sweat shops and slave labor remain an issue.

I don't think you've thought through what you're saying. And to cut it off before it posts, that's not an inflamed response either. Rather, it is years of experience as a political activist encountering rhetoric that carps, blames everyone else, and does nothing of its own volition to make a difference. Leaving it up to everyone else, including God, is weak. You get the government and the society you don't care to change.
Enjoy.
 

Stan B

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Who said we have to seek to retire with 2 million?
I have never heard that recommendation. Depending upon whether you also have a significant pension plan, 2 million might do. I the area where I live, just a basic home costs 1.5 to 2 million, which doesn't leave much left over for stuff like food. So like Joseph who saved up during the 7 years of plenty, saved a nation from the 7 years of famine. A good Biblical principle to be observed.
 

marks

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Of course everyone has the choice to not purchase products from brands known for sweat shops. We don't have to buy from China, known for state sponsored slave labor.

If we ask God to lead us in spending our money for the things we need He will. If it costs more He will provide.

Much love!
 
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Stan B

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Of course everyone has the choice to not purchase products from brands known for sweat shops. We don't have to buy from China, known for state sponsored slave labor.

If we ask God to lead us in spending our money for the things we need He will. If it costs more He will provide.

Much love!

But I still need my Apple iPhone, and as I look at some of the parts used in my HP computers, most of them come from SE Asia; and my house phones are made in Malaysia. Choices are very limited to non-existent!