Isaiah 65:17 vs. Revelation 21:1. How many NHNEs does that equal?

[Timtofly]

Hello! It was Christ's resurrection. The Bible makes it clear that Christ is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5).

Our spiritual resurrection occurs at regeneration, where we have our part in His resurrection. But our physical resurrection occurs at the future second coming.

No, the first resurrection is specifically for humans who physically die. Yes Jesus had a physical body and was a human who physically died. Should we stop at that point, or do a philosophical twist to spin the facts for some newsworthy publication?

Firstborn is not describing a resurrection. Jesus was the firstborn son of God among humanity (the dead). But Jesus was never in Adam's dead corruptible state. Jesus was perfect God in human flesh who experienced this life without sin, death, and decay that goes with Adam's dead flesh. Jesus was the only human since Seth as the firstborn of God.

Jesus was part of firstfruits plural, so many firstfruits, not Jesus is the sole firstfruit, the rest of you still taste death. Jesus said that those alive that day would not taste death, so all firstfruits never went to Abraham's bosom. They all physically entered Paradise along with Christ. Then those in Abraham's bosom were all made firstfruits, because they all physically came out of their tombs, the instant Jesus declared, "It is finished".

First begotten. Are you saying people are now born without sin, and Adam's dead corruptible flesh? You have taken the resurrection and applied it to Jesus as if He were the only human who needed a physical resurrection.

It is called the first resurrection, not spiritual resurrection. Hello!

 

[Timtofly]

This is all extra-biblical reasoning and double-speak. Not surprisingly, you have zero Scripture to support your claims. You are just doing exactly what RandyK does. Your posts are devoid of explicit scriptural evidence. All you have is personal speculation, elaborate theories and carnal reasoning. You have no Scripture to bring to the table.

Where in Scripture does it say there is a "third party" at the second coming that you are too wicked to be caught up and too righteous to be destroyed? Where in Scripture does it say there is a "third party" at the second coming "who go through the destruction and still redeemed, but that redemption is not realized yet"?

You seem to make it up as you go because of your misunderstanding of Revelation.

This is all your speculation. I am just rolling with it. So when you start using Scripture, I will join in. You have not been able to narrow down your excuses and present a Scriptural view. Why should I?

Then again if I do use Scripture, you never reply accordingly, so why bother. Obviously you like making stuff up, and then complain when people reply to your made up stuff.

I never said there was a third party. I said you were a third party, because you are obviously not currently in Paradise, nor unredeemed. Until one is physically dead they are that "third party".

You have yet to defend your made up view all humanity is instantly dead at the Second Coming.

If you don't want to comment on Revelation 4, 5, 6, and 7, don't.

 

[WPM]

This is all your speculation. I am just rolling with it. So when you start using Scripture, I will join in. You have not been able to narrow down your excuses and present a Scriptural view. Why should I?

Then again if I do use Scripture, you never reply accordingly, so why bother. Obviously you like making stuff up, and then complain when people reply to your made up stuff.

I never said there was a third party. I said you were a third party, because you are obviously not currently in Paradise, nor unredeemed. Until one is physically dead they are that "third party".

You have yet to defend your made up view all humanity is instantly dead at the Second Coming.

If you don't want to comment on Revelation 4, 5, 6, and 7, don't.

Who are these billions of wicked who survive the coming of Christ and overrun your supposed future millennium as the sand of the sea? Are they aliens?

 

[Davidpt]

First of all the New Jerusalem comes down, not the NHNE.

Technically speaking, that is true what you said here. Yet, the way I look at things though, you can't have one without the other. You can't have a NJ coming down from heaven without there also being a NHNE. You can't have a NHNE without NJ coming down from heaven.

Look what Isaiah 65 states.

Isaiah 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

In regards to Jerusalem in these verses, how can that then not equal a new Jerusalem? How can one have a new Jerusalem post the 2nd coming without also having a NHNE? Not to mention, verse 17 already plainly tells us that it is involving a NHNE to begin with. In 3 verses then, verses 17-19, we have a NHNE and a new Jerusalem. But this is not the same NHNE and NJ that Revelation 21-22 is involving? Yea, right. As if that makes sense. Just another one of those coincedences, I guess.

Isaiah 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

On a different note, I have been thinking about this Isaiah 65:20 passage some more and the following dawned on me.

Both of these can't be true---nor an old man that hath not filled his days---for the child shall die an hundred years old

Think about it for a moment. If this happens---for the child shall die an hundred years old---how then can that equal this---nor an old man that hath not filled his days? The text plainly says---There shall be no more an old man that hath not filled his days. That is a contradiction if this happens instead---for the child shall die an hundred years old

There shall be no more an old man that hath not filled his days----for the child shall die an hundred years old

Clearly a contradiction if both are supposed to be literally true at the same time. Because if a child shall die at 100, this same one can't fit this instead---There shall be no more an old man that hath not filled his days. What does 'no more' mean to some of you anyway? The same thing 'no more' means to Amils per Revelation 20:3---that he should deceive the nations 'no more'? Meaning how Amils interpret 'no more' in that verse to be meaning 'some more' rather than 'no more'.

Is that how we should treat this as well? Rather than it meaning no more, it means this instead---There shall be some more an old man that hath not filled his days--thus---for the child shall die an hundred years old

 

[WPM]

Technically speaking, that is true what you said here. Yet, the way I look at things though, you can't have one without the other. You can't have a NJ coming down from heaven without there also being a NHNE. You can't have a NHNE without NJ coming down from heaven.

Look what Isaiah 65 states.

Isaiah 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

In regards to Jerusalem in these verses, how can that then not equal a new Jerusalem? How can one have a new Jerusalem post the 2nd coming without also having a NHNE? Not to mention, verse 17 already plainly tells us that it is involving a NHNE to begin with. In 3 verses then, verses 17-19, we have a NHNE and a new Jerusalem. But this is not the same NHNE and NJ that Revelation 21-22 is involving? Yea, right. As if that makes sense. Just another one of those coincedences, I guess.

Isaiah 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

On a different note, I have been thinking about this Isaiah 65:20 passage some more and the following dawned on me.

Both of these can't be true---nor an old man that hath not filled his days---for the child shall die an hundred years old

Think about it for a moment. If this happens---for the child shall die an hundred years old---how then can that equal this---nor an old man that hath not filled his days? The text plainly says---There shall be no more an old man that hath not filled his days. That is a contradiction if this happens instead---for the child shall die an hundred years old

There shall be no more an old man that hath not filled his days----for the child shall die an hundred years old

Clearly a contradiction if both are supposed to be literally true at the same time. Because if a child shall die at 100, this same one can't fit this instead---There shall be no more an old man that hath not filled his days. What does 'no more' mean to some of you anyway? The same thing 'no more' means to Amils per Revelation 20:3---that he should deceive the nations 'no more'? Meaning how Amils interpret 'no more' in that verse to be meaning 'some more' rather than 'no more'.

Is that how we should treat this as well? Rather than it meaning no more, it means this instead---There shall be some more an old man that hath not filled his days--thus---for the child shall die an hundred years old

When does Revelation show the NHNE arrives - at or after the millennium?

 

[Davidpt]

When does Revelation show the NHNE arrives - at or after the millennium?

Since I at least agree with Amil that Isaiah 65:17-25 is involving the same NJ and NHNE that Revelation 21-22 is involving, it is then a matter of determining whether or not Isaiah 65:17-25 can fit the millennium. Because if it can, it for sure can't fit the era of time Amils apply to the millennium.

The very last verse might give some clues here. Depending on how one wants to look at it.

Isaiah 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

What I am referring to is this---and dust shall be the serpent's meat.

You would think that anyone who has read Genesis, that Genesis 3 would immediately come to mind. Meaning the following.

Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Obviously, this is referring to the serpent's meat---and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life. But once satan has been cast into the lake of fire this then equals that all the days of his life has ended, thus dust is no longer his meat if he is instead being tormented in the LOF forever and ever.

The point then being this. As of Isaiah 65:25 satan can't be in the LOF yet, if dust is still his meat. And that Genesis 3:14 plainly says--dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life---and that he can't still be eating dust when he is in the LOF since that makes no sense.

Granted, eating dust is not meaning in a literal sense, yet that is beside the point. One can't have him still eating dust once he has been cast into the LOF, and that Isaiah 65:25 apparently has him still eating dust during the era of time involving verses 17-25.

 

[Davy]

There's really nothing confusing about it: The Millennium is NOT so much about the reign of the Messiah (the Christ), as it is about the CONFINEMENT of haSatan (Hebrew for "the Enemy"). The reign of the Messiah is said to be MUCH longer than a simple 1000 years!

That idea is just CRAZY, and it's obvious that you do not really care that you are mocking the actual New Testament Scriptures.

Revelation 20 is emphatically speaking of a "thousand years" period for Christ's future reign with "a rod of iron" that begins at His coming, with His elect saints, which means what? That saints part about His saints ruling with Him, with the "rod of iron", is SPECIFICALLY TIMED for when Jesus returns in the near future, and NOT at any other time. One of the ways to be certain of that is because it says there about the future 'resurrection' of those saints. And when.... does the resurrection happen in the future? On the DAY of Christ's future return.

Not only that, but in Rev.2 Jesus Christ offered His saints that remain waiting for His coming to reign with Him, with that "rod of iron", over the nations, when He returns, and Christ's future reign over the nations with that "rod of iron" is mentioned all the way back in Psalms 2, with Him being set on God's holy hill of Zion, on earth! So actually, you are also mocking the Old Testament Psalms 2 Scripture with your false assumption.

Debate ended. God's Word in Rev.20 is correct. Your word is following falseness.

 

[Davy]

Still some of you don't seem to get the point here, apparently. Pretty much all Premils, including me, both past and present, take Isaiah 65:17-25 to be involving the thousand years after Christ has returned in the end of this age.

Nope. You are the one not 'getting it'.

Just 'reading'... the Isaiah 65:17-25 Scripture as written reveals how Biblically illiterate and lack of reading comprehension your view has. Makes me wonder just what idiot you are listening to.

Isa 65:17-25
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Well, that ends all debate as to what TIME these verses are about. The Rev.20 events are PRIOR to this "new heavens and a new earth" timing.

18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

When God does that, it means taking away all thoughts about this present 2nd world earth age and the idea of death and the wicked. By believing on Him through His Son JESUS CHRIST OF NAZARETH, means allowing Him in that future time to CREATE US AS A JOY to Him, and there will be no more sin ever.

Even the Zechariah 14 Scripture reveals what kind of time Christ's future "thousand years" reign will be that begins at His future return. We are told there that the leftovers that came up against Jerusalem will be made to come up to Jerusalem and worship The KING from year to year, and keep the feast of tabernacles. And those nations that refuse to come up there will be no rain on their lands. So what does that show how people can still act in that "thousand years" reign time? The WICKED AND REBELLIOUS unsaved are still there DURING CHRIST'S THOUSAND YEARS REIGN. Thus it is IMPOSSIBLE for that "thousand years" to represent God's later "new heavens and new earth" time, when the saved will be made a joy.

19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in My people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

The sinners will be accursed because they will have gone into "lake of fire" at the end of Christ's "thousand years" reign, as written at the end of Rev.20.

21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.

22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of My people, and Mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.

24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.

25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, saith the LORD.
KJV

That idea of the wolf and lamb, etc., feeding together, that is a SIGN of the future new heavens and a new earth time, not of this 2nd world earth age. What many do not understand is that Christ's "thousand years" reign that begins on the day of His future return will be part of this 2nd world earth age, even though some earth changes will begin on that "day of the Lord" when He returns. There will still be imperfections during that time when Jesus reigns after His return, which again like I showed, Zechariah 14 points to with those who will refuse to come up to Jerusalem from year to year, with no rain on their lands as a punishment. That means during Christ's future "thousand years" reign REBELLION will still be possible, and that is NOT a sign of God's Eternity of new heavens and a new earth time.

 

[WPM]

Since I at least agree with Amil that Isaiah 65:17-25 is involving the same NJ and NHNE that Revelation 21-22 is involving, it is then a matter of determining whether or not Isaiah 65:17-25 can fit the millennium. Because if it can, it for sure can't fit the era of time Amils apply to the millennium.

The very last verse might give some clues here. Depending on how one wants to look at it.

Isaiah 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

What I am referring to is this---and dust shall be the serpent's meat.

You would think that anyone who has read Genesis, that Genesis 3 would immediately come to mind. Meaning the following.

Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Obviously, this is referring to the serpent's meat---and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life. But once satan has been cast into the lake of fire this then equals that all the days of his life has ended, thus dust is no longer his meat if he is instead being tormented in the LOF forever and ever.

The point then being this. As of Isaiah 65:25 satan can't be in the LOF yet, if dust is still his meat. And that Genesis 3:14 plainly says--dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life---and that he can't still be eating dust when he is in the LOF since that makes no sense.

Granted, eating dust is not meaning in a literal sense, yet that is beside the point. One can't have him still eating dust once he has been cast into the LOF, and that Isaiah 65:25 apparently has him still eating dust during the era of time involving verses 17-25.

You impute a whole theology and age into a statement that has nothing to do with a future millennium. In doing that you sidestep my question which exposes your thesis. The NHNE arrives after the millennium, not at, as you allege. Isaiah 65:25 describes, “The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain.”

It symbolically depicts the peace that Christ has introduced through the new covenant and which will be literally realized in the new heavens and new earth. The one thing it does not speak of is some supposed sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted future millennial kingdom.

One could potentially take a literal or a figurative interpretation from this verse; however, it seems likely that the passage is a metaphor indicating the peace that exists within the kingdom of God. It can equally describe the undisturbed nature of the eternal state. It is a fact that many eternal truths are described in a parabolic sense in order to impress the great mystery of eternity to our finite mind.

This reference to a serpent is not Satan. The whole context is animals. It is showing the fact that there will be perfect peace and no more death. Animals and reptiles will not be predatory. Animals and reptiles will no longer be victims.

 

[PinSeeker]

There's really nothing confusing about it: The Millennium is NOT so much about the reign of the Messiah (the Christ), as it is about the CONFINEMENT of haSatan (Hebrew for "the Enemy").

Well, I would submit that it's about both, Retrobyter. And ours with Him, as all the saints, over the course of the millennium, are coming to life and reigning with Christ (Revelation 20:4). We know that Christ was King at His first coming, at His birth (we sing it every Christmas), and He Himself said He was King several times during His earthly ministry by saying the Kingdom was here then, not something to come at some point after His crucifixion and resurrection. So the only question that remains, really ~ from His birth and forevermore ~ is, where is He reigning/ruling from? Right now, He is in heaven, seated at the right hand of the Father, which is to say in His power and glory. So, in the very present millennium, He is reigning in/from heaven, which is why we say His millennial reign is in/from heaven. In eternity, He will reign in person with us in the New Heaven and New Earth. You agree, I think, right? So, just to what you say... it's a bit nit-picky, but the millennium is just as much about the reign of the Messiah.

The reign of the Messiah is said to be MUCH longer than a simple 1000 years!

Much agreed. But His millennial reign will come to an end, not because He will cease to reign but only because the millennium will come to an end. And then His continuing reign will be in person, in eternity, the age to come, and therefore His eternal reign, which will have no end... Right?

...the reign of the Messiah over Israel - literally, the HOUSE OF YA`AQOV ("JACOB") FOREVER! And, there shall NEVER be an end to this reign! Furthermore, that INCLUDES all believers, since Yeeshuwa` is the King of the Jews, and shall be the King of all Israel, including those who are "circumcised in heart" and have been graffed into the Olive Tree of the Messiah!

Absolutely!

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Retrobyter]

When does Revelation show the NHNE arrives - at or after the millennium?

Shalom, WPM.

It's quite clear that Revelation 20 runs into Revelation 21 (just as Revelation 19 runs into Revelation 20). One should remember that chapter divisions weren't introduced until the 15th Century A.D! They were NOT present in the original text! And, it should be obvious to the reader that the fire falls in chapter 20 and then the new sky and the new earth are formed in chapter 21.

2 Peter 3:3-13 (KJV)

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying,

"Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation."

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: (the antediluvian world: 1st heavens and 1st earth)

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: (the Flood in Noach's time)

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now (the 2nd heavens and the 2nd earth), by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against (just prior to) the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. (the Fire followed by the GWTJ)

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack (lazy) concerning his promise, as some men count slackness (laziness); but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away (pass by) with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth (land) also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? (the Fire associated with judgment)

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth (the 3rd heavens and 3rd earth), wherein dwelleth righteousness.

So, Kefa ("Peter") reveals that the "third heavens" are the skies around the new earth! The heavens are determined by numbers IN TIME, NOT BY DISTANCE from the surface of the earth! The "third heaven," as Paul put it in 2 Cor. 12:2, is not SPATIALLY third but CHRONOLOGICALLY third!

 

[ewq1938]

Shalom, WPM.

It's quite clear that Revelation 20 runs into Revelation 21 (just as Revelation 19 runs into Revelation 20). One should remember that chapter divisions weren't introduced until the 15th Century A.D! They were NOT present in the original text!

They were also created by an Amill (Catholic).

 

[WPM]

Shalom, WPM.

It's quite clear that Revelation 20 runs into Revelation 21 (just as Revelation 19 runs into Revelation 20). One should remember that chapter divisions weren't introduced until the 15th Century A.D! They were NOT present in the original text! And, it should be obvious to the reader that the fire falls in chapter 20 and then the new sky and the new earth are formed in chapter 21.

2 Peter 3:3-13 (KJV)

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying,

"Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation."

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: (the antediluvian world: 1st heavens and 1st earth)

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: (the Flood in Noach's time)

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now (the 2nd heavens and the 2nd earth), by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against (just prior to) the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. (the Fire followed by the GWTJ)

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack (lazy) concerning his promise, as some men count slackness (laziness); but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away (pass by) with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth (land) also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? (the Fire associated with judgment)

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth (the 3rd heavens and 3rd earth), wherein dwelleth righteousness.

So, Kefa ("Peter") reveals that the "third heavens" are the skies around the new earth! The heavens are determined by numbers IN TIME, NOT BY DISTANCE from the surface of the earth! The "third heaven," as Paul put it in 2 Cor. 12:2, is not SPATIALLY third but CHRONOLOGICALLY third!

So the whole of Revelation is chronological, in your estimation?

 

[Timtofly]

Who are these billions of wicked who survive the coming of Christ and overrun your supposed future millennium as the sand of the sea? Are they aliens?

They are not even alive yet at the Second Coming. Why do you make stuff up?

You accept that no wicked are allowed on earth after the Second Coming. Then you want them alive? Make up your mind. You have to understand based on the correct interpretation, not some interpretation you make up in your head.

 

[Timtofly]

Technically speaking, that is true what you said here. Yet, the way I look at things though, you can't have one without the other. You can't have a NJ coming down from heaven without there also being a NHNE. You can't have a NHNE without NJ coming down from heaven.

Look what Isaiah 65 states.

Isaiah 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

In regards to Jerusalem in these verses, how can that then not equal a new Jerusalem? How can one have a new Jerusalem post the 2nd coming without also having a NHNE? Not to mention, verse 17 already plainly tells us that it is involving a NHNE to begin with. In 3 verses then, verses 17-19, we have a NHNE and a new Jerusalem. But this is not the same NHNE and NJ that Revelation 21-22 is involving? Yea, right. As if that makes sense. Just another one of those coincedences, I guess.

Isaiah 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

On a different note, I have been thinking about this Isaiah 65:20 passage some more and the following dawned on me.

Both of these can't be true---nor an old man that hath not filled his days---for the child shall die an hundred years old

Think about it for a moment. If this happens---for the child shall die an hundred years old---how then can that equal this---nor an old man that hath not filled his days? The text plainly says---There shall be no more an old man that hath not filled his days. That is a contradiction if this happens instead---for the child shall die an hundred years old

There shall be no more an old man that hath not filled his days----for the child shall die an hundred years old

Clearly a contradiction if both are supposed to be literally true at the same time. Because if a child shall die at 100, this same one can't fit this instead---There shall be no more an old man that hath not filled his days. What does 'no more' mean to some of you anyway? The same thing 'no more' means to Amils per Revelation 20:3---that he should deceive the nations 'no more'? Meaning how Amils interpret 'no more' in that verse to be meaning 'some more' rather than 'no more'.

Is that how we should treat this as well? Rather than it meaning no more, it means this instead---There shall be some more an old man that hath not filled his days--thus---for the child shall die an hundred years old

It means that no old men ever die.

Jerusalem has been restored multiple times throughout history without there being a NHNE. You could also apply Isaiah 65 to the return from the Babylonian captivity in the 4th century BC. Would you demand Revelation 21 applies to that restoration of Jerusalem?

To me these verses are saying, because of long life, maturity is not reached until 100. Some people today are still immature at 50. Isaiah 65 is not saying a human cannot be mature until 100. Once a person reaches 100, it would be safe to say they are no longer going to act on childish disobedience, which results in death.

Not that the OT law is being reinstated but God Himself told His people to stone their own children to prevent rebellion from spreading at a young age. Now the OT recipient of the book of Isaiah would understand the connotation of this seemingly metaphorical lifestyle. Some just see this as a form of Hebrew meaning no one dies or ages.

Certainly these lines would mean just very long life had the words "shall die", "sinner", and "accursed" been left out. There is no literal reading where these verses declare death and being accursed definitely will not happen. So if Isaiah was just talking about long life, it was unnecessary to also mention "shall die" and "accursed" as written.

 

[WPM]

They are not even alive yet at the Second Coming. Why do you make stuff up?

You accept that no wicked are allowed on earth after the Second Coming. Then you want them alive? Make up your mind. You have to understand based on the correct interpretation, not some interpretation you make up in your head.

Why will you not answer this?

Who are these billions of wicked who overrun your supposed future millennium as the sand of the sea? Where do they come from?

 

[Timtofly]

Why will you not answer this?

Who are these billions of wicked who overrun your supposed future millennium as the sand of the sea? Where do they come from?

I keep telling you they are not in the Millennium as "the wicked". They are not even born at the start of the Millennium. They come from the last few generations.

They are those under 100 years of age who are deceived by Satan after the end of the Millennium. Those last few generations would make up the largest population group on the earth. They would be at the 4 corners of the earth building up the last inhabited areas.

Why should I have to even point out how life on earth works? Just look at the population explosion of the last 200 years. Remove sin, death, and decay, and after a thousand years, the earth will be entirely populated again. I wonder if Satan will use overpopulation and living on the fringe of society to foster deception? Satan is said to deceive many humans. Where they are deceived should give you some clue as to who are being deceived.

Your question "where do billions come from" is highly speculative, and borderline blasphemous. It certainly does not help Amil out, other than making one look foolish. Why do you keep asking foolish and antagonistic questions?

 

[Davy]

Shalom, WPM.

It's quite clear that Revelation 20 runs into Revelation 21 (just as Revelation 19 runs into Revelation 20). One should remember that chapter divisions weren't introduced until the 15th Century A.D! They were NOT present in the original text! And, it should be obvious to the reader that the fire falls in chapter 20 and then the new sky and the new earth are formed in chapter 21.

2 Peter 3:3-13 (KJV)

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying,

"Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation."

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: (the antediluvian world: 1st heavens and 1st earth)

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: (the Flood in Noach's time)

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now (the 2nd heavens and the 2nd earth), by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against (just prior to) the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. (the Fire followed by the GWTJ)

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack (lazy) concerning his promise, as some men count slackness (laziness); but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away (pass by) with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth (land) also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? (the Fire associated with judgment)

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth (the 3rd heavens and 3rd earth), wherein dwelleth righteousness.

So, Kefa ("Peter") reveals that the "third heavens" are the skies around the new earth! The heavens are determined by numbers IN TIME, NOT BY DISTANCE from the surface of the earth! The "third heaven," as Paul put it in 2 Cor. 12:2, is not SPATIALLY third but CHRONOLOGICALLY third!

Sorry, but you have missed the mark also on this subject.

The 2 Peter 3:10 event of God's consuming fire burning man's works off this earth will happen on the "day of the Lord" like Peter said there. That "day of the Lord" is the LAST DAY of this present world we are in today that will end with Jesus' return.

In other words, the "day of the Lord" begins with Jesus' return, not a 1,000 years after His return like you are saying.

The fire that God rains down upon the earth when Satan leads the deceived nations in final against the "camp of saints" on earth, per the end of Rev.20, is NOT the "day of the Lord" event.

 

[Davy]

So, Kefa ("Peter") reveals that the "third heavens" are the skies around the new earth! The heavens are determined by numbers IN TIME, NOT BY DISTANCE from the surface of the earth! The "third heaven," as Paul put it in 2 Cor. 12:2, is not SPATIALLY third but CHRONOLOGICALLY third!

That idea also is just supposition by men's traditions.

The "third heaven" idea per Apostle Paul in 2 Cor.12 is not about a literal division of 3 heavens. It is about 3 divisions of TIME:


1. 2 Pet.3:6 = "the world that then was" = the 1st heaven and earth age.
2. 2 Pet.3:7 = "the heavens and the earth, which are now" = 2nd heaven and earth age.
3. 2 Pet.3:13 = "new heavens and a new earth" = 3rd heaven and earth age.


1. The 1st heaven and earth age was when Satan originally followed God, was the anointed cherub that covereth, meaning Satan's original job was to guard The Mercy Seat. Then Satan rebelled in coveting God's throne and thus fell.

2. The 2nd heaven and earth age God started after He ended that 1st world age when Satan rebelled. This 2nd one began starting at Genesis 1:2, which is why the earth is shown laid waste with flood waters over all of it at that point. We are still in this 2nd one today.

3. The 3rd heaven, and earth age, will be God's future Eternity after death, hell, Satan, and the wicked are destroyed in the "lake of fire" at the end of Christ's future 1,000 years reign with His elect. THIS... is the "third heaven" that Apostle Paul was caught up to in The Spirit, much like how Ezekiel and Apostle John were caught up in The Spirit and shown future prophetic events.

 

[Retrobyter]

Sorry, but you have missed the mark also on this subject.

The 2 Peter 3:10 event of God's consuming fire burning man's works off this earth will happen on the "day of the Lord" like Peter said there. That "day of the Lord" is the LAST DAY of this present world we are in today that will end with Jesus' return.

In other words, the "day of the Lord" begins with Jesus' return, not a 1,000 years after His return like you are saying.

The fire that God rains down upon the earth when Satan leads the deceived nations in final against the "camp of saints" on earth, per the end of Rev.20, is NOT the "day of the Lord" event.

Shalom, Davy.

This may be difficult for you to understand or accept, but that 1,000 years ARE the Day of the Lord! Yeeshuwa` the Messiah is called "the Sun of righteousness."

Malachi 4:1-6 (KJV)

1 "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up," saith the LORD of hosts, "that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. 3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do [this]," saith the LORD of hosts.
4 "Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, [with] the statutes and judgments. 5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse."

When the Sun of righteousness shall arise, there shall be no night in His presence! For a THOUSAND YEARS, there will be no night! He will reign in God's GLORY upon the Throne of His GLORY! He will not need to sleep, and He will be judging the earth for that thousand years. He gives them EVERY CHANCE imaginable to change their attitudes and come humbly to Him.

2 Peter 3:3-10 (KJV)

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying,

"Where is the promise of his coming (in wrath)? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation!"

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens (1st heavens) were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water (the Flood), perished:

7 But the heavens (2nd heavens) and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire (of Revelation 20:7-9) against (just prior to) the day of judgment and perdition (sentencing) of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that ONE DAY [IS] WITH THE LORD AS A THOUSAND YEARS, AND A THOUSAND YEARS AS ONE DAY. 9 The Lord is not slack (lazy) concerning his promise (of His coming in wrath), as some men count slackness (laziness); but is LONGSUFFERING (PATIENT) to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord WILL COME as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

This is still the SAME "DAY OF THE LORD!" However, if they continue to refuse, the wrath of that Day (at the end of the Day) will overtake them! This is because when the last person who will change has come to Him for that change, He will have no other choice but to lower the boom on all the rest.