Islam - Beast with two Horns looks like a Lamb

[Tsigano]

[sup]Revelation 13[/sup]
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[sup] 11[/sup] Then [sup](AD)[/sup]I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had [sup](AE)[/sup]two horns like a lamb and he spoke as a [sup](AF)[/sup]dragon.


[font="'Charis SIL"]This beast comes after the first beast with ten horns (kings) and seven heads (hills). The beast that was spoken about through Daniel and is to be there at the birth of Christ and is to send the Jews out into the nations [/font](Rev 12).


Then comes this beast. The beast is not from the Sea (which some take to means "multitudes of people / nations") but comes from the land(? - is this possibly to mean Abraham?)
[font="'Charis SIL"]
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[font="'Charis SIL"]It is the opinion of some Christians (just surf youtube) that this beast is Islam.[/font]
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[font="'Charis SIL"]Reasoning is two horns like the Ram in Daniel represents two divisions of people (unlike the beast with ten horns where the horns = kings) could represent The two sects of Islam (Shiite & Sunni)[/font]
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[font="'Charis SIL"]This beast is mentioned as being a forceful beast. There is a verse in Revelations which speaks of Christians being "beheaded" for the "Word".[/font]
[font="'Charis SIL"]There are multiple verses in the Quran which say to "strike the neck" of the infidel. Muslims also persecute the Bible and martyr many Christians in Muslims countries just because they own a Bible.[/font]
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[font="'Charis SIL"]Any thoughts?[/font]

 

[popeye]

[sup]Revelation 13[/sup]
[sup]
[/sup]
[sup] 11[/sup] Then [sup](AD)[/sup]I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had [sup](AE)[/sup]two horns like a lamb and he spoke as a [sup](AF)[/sup]dragon.


This beast comes after the first beast with ten horns (kings) and seven heads (hills). The beast that was spoken about through Daniel and is to be there at the birth of Christ and is to send the Jews out into the nations (Rev 12).


Then comes this beast. The beast is not from the Sea (which some take to means "multitudes of people / nations") but comes from the land(? - is this possibly to mean Abraham?)


It is the opinion of some Christians (just surf youtube) that this beast is Islam.

Reasoning is two horns like the Ram in Daniel represents two divisions of people (unlike the beast with ten horns where the horns = kings) could represent The two sects of Islam (Shiite & Sunni)

This beast is mentioned as being a forceful beast. There is a verse in Revelations which speaks of Christians being "beheaded" for the "Word".
There are multiple verses in the Quran which say to "strike the neck" of the infidel. Muslims also persecute the Bible and martyr many Christians in Muslims countries just because they own a Bible.

Any thoughts?

Only Jesus Christ was described as a "lamb". Therefore, by John using this symbol one would have to conclude that the two-horned beast is a "False Prophet", as many believe he is. However, I believe he might very well be the "Propaganda Minister" for the AC. In either case, I do not see Islam being attributed to this beast, for the simple reason that Islam ceases to exist as an end time player because of the Gog invasion. Their forces and countries will be laying in ruins by the time AC comes to the fore. The beast coming up out of the earth, suggests he - like the AC - ascends from the bottomless pit, or comes from a demon spirit possibly.

My two cents...

 

[Tsigano]

Only Jesus Christ was described as a "lamb". Therefore, by John using this symbol one would have to conclude that the two-horned beast is a "False Prophet", as many believe he is. However, I believe he might very well be the "Propaganda Minister" for the AC. In either case, I do not see Islam being attributed to this beast, for the simple reason that Islam ceases to exist as an end time player because of the Gog invasion. Their forces and countries will be laying in ruins by the time AC comes to the fore. The beast coming up out of the earth, suggests he - like the AC - ascends from the bottomless pit, or comes from a demon spirit possibly.

My two cents...

Is there any previous situations in the Bible where a beast been a single being? Beasts in the Bible are to my knowledge empires or equivalent.

 

[BibleScribe]

...
Reasoning is two horns like the Ram in Daniel represents two divisions of people (unlike the beast with ten horns where the horns = kings) could represent The two sects of Islam (Shiite & Sunni)
...

I might anticipate that the two horns of the Ram represented various governing models in ancient days. These might have been a simple as being ruled by judges (prior to Saul) and being ruled by a king as the other nations.

The HeGoat only had one great horn, which represented a new model, which would be followed by all FOUR regular horns, for a total of FIVE World Empires. And of course this FIFTH world empire has ten little horns and an eleventh.


But this logic would confirm the Daniel 2:45 ~4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE~ and thus couldn't possibly be correct.



BibleScribe


PS Daniel 11:2 also confirms the Daniel 2:45 ~4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE~, but this apparently is equally of no significance. :lol:

 

[popeye]

Is there any previous situations in the Bible where a beast been a single being? Beasts in the Bible are to my knowledge empires or equivalent.

Actually a very good point, and question. You are correct, the beasts in Daniel are peoples / nations, while their horns are rulers / kings. However, in The Rev those designations are interchangeable with individuals. Certainly the beast of Rev 13:1-8 is both a kingdom and a ruler. The four beasts of Rev 6 are individuals. The beast of Rev 13:11 is an individual who is AC's right hand man. The Rev 13:1-8 beast is most certainly both man and kingdom, for we are told in Rev 13:18 to: "count the number of the beast, FOR IT IS THE NUMBER OF A MAN., etc."

A "beast" by biblical definition is : anyone who is AntiGod or AntiChrist, or without knowledge of God by intention, or without knowledge of God by intelligent design ( animals ). That is why the kingdoms of Daniel are symbolized as beasts, because they are an earthly system, or group of people, who together exist in a world ruled by Satan and form a whole who deny God.

 

[BibleScribe]

... The beast of Rev 13:11 is an individual who is AC's right hand man. ...

It would seem prudent to solve the whole puzzle first, rather than picking up a blue puzzle piece and declaring it is the sky -- when it could be water. Each piece MUST interlock with it's surrounding pieces.

Has anyone considered starting with Daniel 2, then Daniel 7, and then Revelation 13?



BibleScribe

 

[popeye]

It would seem prudent to solve the whole puzzle first, rather than picking up a blue puzzle piece and declaring it is the sky -- when it could be water. Each piece MUST interlock with it's surrounding pieces.

Has anyone considered starting with Daniel 2, then Daniel 7, and then Revelation 13?

BibleScribe

I've completed the puzzle....Just missing a few pieces where the sky meets the water....

The Revelation gives one all the info one needs to prepare themselves for what's coming. And it's contents CONFIRMS the earlier prophesies of Christ and Daniel and Ezekiel and....

 

[BibleScribe]

I've completed the puzzle....Just missing a few pieces where the sky meets the water....

The Revelation gives one all the info one needs to prepare themselves for what's coming. And it's contents CONFIRMS the earlier prophesies of Christ and Daniel and Ezekiel and....

Certainly Scripture confirms Scripture. The only question is whether you have resolved the sequence in Daniel 2:45 (i.e., ~4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE). But defying this guidance and assigning a 1,2,3,4a,4b, you can only confirm that both your interpretations are wrong.

The fact is, history accounts for a FIVE world sequence:

Gold, Babylonian
Silver, Medo/Persian
Bronze, Grecian
Iron, Roman
Clay, "divided" -- between three-superpowers (U.S., Russia, China)

And of course these three-superpowers are approximate to 1948, which is the time-of-the-end.


BibleScribe

 

[BibleScribe]

To All,

From my best understanding of Scriptural depictions as reflected against the Historical evidence, I find NO direct correlation with prophecy and Islam. Certainly Arab nations are presented in end-time events, some of which are allied with non-Islamic transgressor nations (and thus the ~Islamic phobia~); but others are allied with non-Islamic defending nations. So although some presume a greater Islamic threat, I find no such direct evidence, and find only circumstantial current event substance.

However having said this, when the one-world-government arises and Christians refuse the mark-of-the-beast, it would be prudent to anticipate that those who hate Christians (typical of the irreligious, the cult followers, the Islamists) would gleefully turn in individuals and families for imprisonment and/or murder. For shall Jews suffer the Holocaust, and Christians not follow that same example?


BibleScribe

 

[popeye]

To All,

From my best understanding of Scriptural depictions as reflected against the Historical evidence, I find NO direct correlation with prophecy and Islam. Certainly Arab nations are presented in end-time events, some of which are allied with non-Islamic transgressor nations (and thus the ~Islamic phobia~); but others are allied with non-Islamic defending nations. So although some presume a greater Islamic threat, I find no such direct evidence, and find only circumstantial current event substance.

However having said this, when the one-world-government arises and Christians refuse the mark-of-the-beast, it would be prudent to anticipate that those who hate Christians (typical of the irreligious, the cult followers, the Islamists) would gleefully turn in individuals and families for imprisonment and/or murder. For shall Jews suffer the Holocaust, and Christians not follow that same example?


BibleScribe

Well said 'Scribe. And I would add that in some instances your own family members, co workers, and friends will turn you in to the authorities as well. " ...a man's foes shall be they of his own household" ( Mt 10:36, Mk 13:12 ) The coming christian holocaust will pale the Jewish holocaust, in comparison.

I also find no evidence of an Islamic threat during the end times, either. Indeed, I believe Arabs will make their final stand in the Bekka Valley when they are allied with Russia in the Gog invasion of Israel prior to the rise of AC. There, Arab forces will be nearly obliterated by the hand of God.

 

[BibleScribe]

... I believe Arabs will make their final stand in the Bekka Valley when they are allied with Russia in the Gog invasion of Israel prior to the rise of AC. There, Arab forces will be nearly obliterated by the hand of God.

Hey Popeye,

Certainly some Islamic nations will ally against Israel, (chiefly Iran, Lybia, Sudan, and Egypt), but apparently Saudi Arabia will suffer being attacked.


BibleScribe

 

[popeye]

Hey Popeye,

Certainly some Islamic nations will ally against Israel, (chiefly Iran, Lybia, Sudan, and Egypt), but apparently Saudi Arabia will suffer being attacked.


BibleScribe

When I say "Arabs", I'm referring to Islamic nations. Just wanted to clarify my use of that term. Enlighten me on the Saudi Arabian attack....

 

[BibleScribe]

When I say "Arabs", I'm referring to Islamic nations. Just wanted to clarify my use of that term. Enlighten me on the Saudi Arabian attack....

Some suggest that the Ezekiel 38 "Dedan" is Arabia. And Dedan is allied with Tarshish (distant sea trader), who is the ~U.S./U.K.~.


BilbeScribe

 

[revturmoil]

In either case, I do not see Islam being attributed to this beast, for the
simple reason that Islam ceases to exist as an end time player because of the
Gog invasion. Their forces and countries will be laying in ruins by the time AC
comes to the fore.

The burden of proof is upon you to insist that Islam and Islamic dominated countries will be done with before the revelation of the man of sin. There's more reason to believe the Gog invasion comes toward the end of tribulation. Even if the Gog invasion comes before the tribulation there's no reason to assume Islam would not be an end-time player. Worldwide terrorism would not cease but would increase.
All the end-time scriptures I know of seem to support a cruel, oppressive, murderous religion like Islam and countries dominated by it, Countries that want the destruction of Israel. Who does God say he will raise up in the end???

The Babylonians.

Habakkuk 1:5 ¶Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvellously: for I will work a work in your days, which ye will not believe, though it be told you.
6 For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwellingplaces that are not theirs.
7 They are terrible and dreadful: their judgment and their dignity shall proceed of themselves.
8 Their horses also are swifter than the leopards, and are more fierce than the evening wolves: and their horsemen shall spread themselves, and their horsemen shall come from far; they shall fly as the eagle that hasteth to eat.


9 They shall come all for violence: their faces shall sup up as the east wind, and they shall gather the captivity as the sand.
10 And they shall scoff at the kings, and the princes shall be a scorn unto them: they shall deride every strong hold; for they shall heap dust, and take it.

You have a pretty tough sell to say Islam isn't an end-time player. Every verse I know of that speaks of the nations and people involved in the end are all dominated by Islam.

 

[BibleScribe]

To All,

From my best understanding of Scriptural depictions as reflected against the Historical evidence, I find NO direct correlation with prophecy and Islam. Certainly Arab nations are presented in end-time events, some of which are allied with non-Islamic transgressor nations (and thus the ~Islamic phobia~); but others are allied with non-Islamic defending nations. So although some presume a greater Islamic threat, I find no such direct evidence, and find only circumstantial current event substance.

However having said this, when the one-world-government arises and Christians refuse the mark-of-the-beast, it would be prudent to anticipate that those who hate Christians (typical of the irreligious, the cult followers, the Islamists) would gleefully turn in individuals and families for imprisonment and/or murder. For shall Jews suffer the Holocaust, and Christians not follow that same example?


BibleScribe

I stand by my observations.


BibleScribe

 

[Tsigano]

I might anticipate that the two horns of the Ram represented various governing models in ancient days. These might have been a simple as being ruled by judges (prior to Saul) and being ruled by a king as the other nations.

The HeGoat only had one great horn, which represented a new model, which would be followed by all FOUR regular horns, for a total of FIVE World Empires. And of course this FIFTH world empire has ten little horns and an eleventh.


But this logic would confirm the Daniel 2:45 ~4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE~ and thus couldn't possibly be correct.



BibleScribe


PS Daniel 11:2 also confirms the Daniel 2:45 ~4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE~, but this apparently is equally of no significance. :lol:

I think I stop here.

You have you own unique theories that others Christian I am aware of fail to see yet you try so hard to present your own little ideas as facts.

The Ram with two horn as most see clearly as Persian & Medes who took Babylonian Empire and also rule of the Holy land.
The goat so clearly is the Greek Empire as ruled by Alexander the Great. Upon taking the Empire Alexander died and his kingdom was ruled by four. After the Greeks came the Romans.

That is the belief of most. It is also the belief of mine.

Sure I accept that the vision of iron becoming iron mixed with clay is the united Europe we see today (yet divided) that spawned off the back of Rome. It is still the same beast with ten horns.

The beast with two horns comes after the beast with ten horns (Rome --> fallen Rome / divided European powers).

This is what makes me wonder..

If the water and sea represents multitude of nations / the gentiles / the people of the world

then does the land represent the land as promised to Abraham and Abraham's seed?

The beast with two horns does sound a definite description of Islam. Especially the looking like a lamb but speaks like a dragon.

 

[veteran]

Well said 'Scribe. And I would add that in some instances your own family members, co workers, and friends will turn you in to the authorities as well. " ...a man's foes shall be they of his own household" ( Mt 10:36, Mk 13:12 ) The coming christian holocaust will pale the Jewish holocaust, in comparison.

I also find no evidence of an Islamic threat during the end times, either. Indeed, I believe Arabs will make their final stand in the Bekka Valley when they are allied with Russia in the Gog invasion of Israel prior to the rise of AC. There, Arab forces will be nearly obliterated by the hand of God.

Where in the world are you getting that idea that the Ezek.38-39 Gog and Magog event will occur PRIOR to the coming of the Antichrist? Per the Ezek.39 chapter, that destruction from God ends this present world, ending the tribulation time.

The Armageddon event of Revelation 16 is also about that Ezek.38-39 Gog and Magog event. That event will occur on the last 7th Vial, which is also when Christ returns with His army to defeat the beast (that means the beasts of Rev.13 must already be established on earth prior to that 7th Vial and Armageddon). This is why the valley of Hamongog is about Israel burying their bones for 7 years after the event, and the next Ezek.40 chapter is about the Millennium time.

Don't buy into the media propaganda about the threat of Islam today, for it's nothing but a fear tactic. 28 nations participated in the 1990's Gulf War under the U.N. powers. The radical Islamic extremists can't produce an army big enough to go against the power of world bodies like the U.N.'s sanctioned world police forces. The invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan should have shown that too. This is why orthodox Islam has had to turn to peaceful infiltration tactics in the West, trying to establish a foothold in the West under the guise of peace. World peace is what the powers God has ordained want today. The coming Antichrist is going to come to power using that Peace also, not war (Dan.11).

I've not yet been shown by The Holy Spirit as to what event exactly kicks off the final battle of Armageddon, which is when the Ezek.38-39 Gog and Magog will occur to end this present world. But it is to occur towards the end... of the Antichrist's reign, not before his coming. The Antichrist is to appear prior to the end of this present world.

 

[BibleScribe]

Where in the world are you getting that idea that the Ezek.38-39 Gog and Magog event will occur PRIOR to the coming of the Antichrist? ...

Hey Veteran,

The answer is clear:

Daniel 11:40
[sup]40[/sup] "At the time of the end, the king of the south shall attack[sup][g][/sup] him, but the king of the north shall rush upon him like a whirlwind, with chariots and horsemen, and with many ships. And he shall come into countries and shall overflow and pass through. [sup]41[/sup]He shall come into the glorious land. And tens of thousands shall fall, but these shall be delivered out of his hand: Edom and Moab and the main part of the Ammonites. [sup]42[/sup]He shall stretch out his hand against the countries, and the land of Egypt shall not escape. [sup]43[/sup]He shall become ruler of the treasures of gold and of silver, and all the precious things of Egypt, and the Libyans and the Cushites shall follow in his train. [sup]44[/sup]But news from the east and the north shall alarm him, and he shall go out with great fury to destroy and devote many to destruction.


And of course, the U.N. shall promise "peace" to a thirsty world:

[sup]45[/sup]And he shall pitch his palatial tents between the sea and the glorious holy mountain. Yet he shall come to his end, with none to help him.


Hope this helps,
BibleScribe

 

[BibleScribe]

...
The Ram with two horn as most see clearly as Persian & Medes who took Babylonian Empire and also rule of the Holy land.

This is NOT the fulfillment.

The goat so clearly is the Greek Empire as ruled by Alexander the Great. Upon taking the Empire Alexander died and his kingdom was ruled by four. After the Greeks came the Romans.

The FOUR that you and others ascribe to the Grecian Empire does NOT agree with the FIVE that the historians account:

...(Alexander) had left not one but several strong men behind him, and none could be content with less than sovereignty. ... After some minor trials at arms which disposed of lesser contenders, they divided the empire into five parts -- Antipater taking Macedonia and Greece, Lysimachus Thrace, Antigonus Asia Minor, Seleucus Babylonea, and Ptolemy Egypt.”[1]

<br clear="all"> [1] Durant, Will, “Story of Civilization: Part I,” Simon and Schuster, NY, 1954, pp. 557-558


Your commentators have a self serving interest in misrepresenting history to ~prove~ that Scripture is ~correct~.

Additionally, the rest of Chapter 8 is further removed from any ancient ~fulfillment~. In fact, if one considered Daniel 12:4 & Daniel 12:9, one should not be surprised that these are NOT intended for ancient assignments.

That is the belief of most. It is also the belief of mine.

Good thing misery love company.

Sure I accept that the vision of iron becoming iron mixed with clay is the united Europe we see today (yet divided) that spawned off the back of Rome. It is still the same beast with ten horns.
The beast with two horns comes after the beast with ten horns (Rome --> fallen Rome / divided European powers).

Daniel 2:45 says FIVE distinct empires. You interpret them as 4a/4b. This violates Scripture.

The beast with two horns does sound a definite description of Islam. Especially the looking like a lamb but speaks like a dragon.

You've gotten everything else wrong, -- looks like an unbroken streak.



BibleScribe

 

[popeye]

Where in the world are you getting that idea that the Ezek.38-39 Gog and Magog event will occur PRIOR to the coming of the Antichrist? Per the Ezek.39 chapter, that destruction from God ends this present world, ending the tribulation time.

Most people regard the battle of Gog to be fulfilled at the end of the MK of Christ, per Rev 20:8. I have never heard of anyone believing that the battle of Gog / Magog IS ONE & THE SAME AS ARMAGEDDON. So, that's a new one on me, Vet. Unfortunately, they are two separate battles, one occurring SHORTLY BEFORE the beginning of Dan's 70th week ( Gog invasion ), the other occurring at the end. This can be verified by Joel 2 & 3. Joel 2 & 3 are two totally separate battle descriptions. Furthermore, Rev 12:15 & 16 is another reference to the Gog invasion of Israel prior to the rise of AC ( Rev 12:17, and then Rev 13 immediately follow verses 15 & 16 ). If the Gog invasion was Armageddon, as you contend, then what need is there for the "sprinkling of the HS on all peoples" as shown in Joel 2? There would be no need for this when Christ assumes command of the nations of the world after he defeats the forces opposed to him at Armageddon. Therefore, Joel 2 cannot be referencing the Armageddon battle. Joel 3 however, does. Additionally, the "sprinkling of the HS" of Joel 2:28-32 is a prelude-to, and in preparation-of, the GT that will follow, and 'sprinkling" also follows the Gog invasion. Furthermore, in my analysis, the USA and Russia will be diminished in power as a result of a nuke attack by Gog, thereby rendering those two superpowers political incapable of mounting a serious challenge to the rise of the AC....and indeed, the USA and Russia will become part of the AC's kingdom as a result.

Don't buy into the media propaganda about the threat of Islam today, for it's nothing but a fear tactic. 28 nations participated in the 1990's Gulf War under the U.N. powers. The radical Islamic extremists can't produce an army big enough to go against the power of world bodies like the U.N.'s sanctioned world police forces. The invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan should have shown that too. This is why orthodox Islam has had to turn to peaceful infiltration tactics in the West, trying to establish a foothold in the West under the guise of peace. World peace is what the powers God has ordained want today. The coming Antichrist is going to come to power using that Peace also, not war (Dan.11).

I agree 100%....Arabs have too many tribal factions to unite themselves under one banner. That's why Russia is her intercediary.

I've not yet been shown by The Holy Spirit as to what event exactly kicks off the final battle of Armageddon, which is when the Ezek.38-39 Gog and Magog will occur to end this present world. But it is to occur towards the end... of the Antichrist's reign, not before his coming. The Antichrist is to appear prior to the end of this present world.

The Gog invasion of Israel is the watershed event christians should be looking for to identify the start of end events.