Israel/Church Distinctions

[Netchaplain]

believe many are unknowingly in misunderstanding concerning the concept that the Body of Christ, the Church, has somehow entered into that which God has for His people Israel. He has always "reserved" (Rom 11:4) Jews out of unbelieving Israelites, to believe in Him, which Scripture refers to as a "remnant" (Isa 10:22 Rom 9:27; 11:5), and to this day they include believing Israelites who comprise the Church with believing Gentiles.

I believe the prophecies of Jer 31:31 and Eze 36:26 collate in Scripture to refer to God's final redemption of unbelieving Israel, who will consist of Israelites who have believed in God but not in Christ. These are those who will be living at the time of the fulfillment of these prophecies, somewhere during the great tribulation or during the Millennium.

There is no support to intend the above prophecies to refer to neither pre-tribulation nor pre-Millennium believing Israelites, because the prophecies design the application to Israelites who do not believe, until after seeing Jesus, and God putting His Spirit in them (as it is now with the Church). This could be the intention of "all Israel shall be saved" (all Israelites alive at that time; not those who’ve died since Adam who have believed God - Rom 11:26).

I believe there will be an even greater distinction in eternity between Israellites whom God saves later and the Church, in that those who are "blessed" (John 20:29 - Church - Israelite and Gentile believers) will be in a parental relationship, with God as their God and Father (John 20:17) and they as His children (Rom 8:16); and the Millennium Israelite (if you will) shall be in a form of theocratic relationship, with Him only as their God, and they His people (Jer 31:33 – a relationship that has always been).

Part of my reason sharing material related to the Scriptural distinctions of unbelieving Israel and the Body is to learn what the Lord shows everyone who fellowship in His Word through their Christian forum postings.

God’s guidance to us and blessed be the Lord.

-NC

 

[Wormwood]

NetChaplain,

Thanks for your post on this intriguing topic. I am not sure if I am following you very accurately so forgive me if I misinterpret your writing. Are you suggesting that God has a separate plan for unbelieving Israel to save them apart from Christ during the supposed great tribulation? I must say that I would wholeheartedly disagree with such an interpretation. The author of Hebrews quotes Jeremiah 31:31 in reference to the present redemption found in Christ...not a future millennial redemption.

Here's my take. Yes, God has reserved for himself a remnant of believing Israel, so his promises to Israel are not void in Christ. Gentiles have been grafted into Israel by faith in Jesus. I do not believe there is any salvation for any Israelite apart from faith in Christ. This seems to be the very explicit point Paul makes in Romans 10:1-4. There is nothing in Scripture that suggests any salvation outside of accepting Christ. Paul's comment that "all Israel will be saved" has to do with the manner they will be saved, not the number of those who will be saved. Specifically, Paul says that God has made salvation come to the Gentiles in order to make Israel jealous (Romans 11:11). This is the manner by which all Israel will be saved...being regrafted into being part of God's people through the grace at work in the Gentiles. The Greek here is better translated as showing a process rather than a result. The NIV has, "And so all Israel will be saved" which is misleading. Better is the ESV's "And in this way all Israel will be saved..." Paul is speaking about the means by which every Israelite is saved not the number of Israelites who will be saved.

I believe that suggesting that God has means of saving Israel outside of faith in Christ or that God has a special plan to reach Israel outside of his grace given to both Jews and Gentiles in Jesus suggests that God shows favoritism. I think Scripture is clear that God does not show favoritism. His call to Israel is not revoked, but neither is there a special avenue of grace apart from simple faith in Jesus to save the Israelite.

 

[afaithfulone4u]

This should clear the misunderstanding up:

Rom 9:1-12
9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
KJV

Old covenant Israel is the elder(Esau) for they are of the flesh the 7,000 reserved of God that will be saved by grace 1Kings19:18,Romans 11:4 and have not overcome their sinful nature because they do not know Christ. They shall serve the younger which means those of the new covenant Israel in Christ. However there is a twist. The tribe of Benjamin is the youngest of the 12 sons by Rachel whom Jacob loved and they are the natural Jews in the body of Christ and they shall receive more.
Gen 45:21-22
21 And the children of Israel did so: and Joseph gave them wagons, according to the commandment of Pharaoh, and gave them provision for the way.
22 To all of them he gave each man changes of raiment; but to Benjamin he gave three hundred pieces of silver, and five changes of raiment.
KJV

 

[Netchaplain]

NetChaplain,

The author of Hebrews quotes Jeremiah 31:31 in reference to the present redemption found in Christ...not a future millennial redemption.

I believe that suggesting that God has means of saving Israel outside of faith in Christ or that God has a special plan to reach Israel outside of his grace given to both Jews and Gentiles in Jesus suggests that God shows favoritism. I think Scripture is clear that God does not show favoritism. His call to Israel is not revoked, but neither is there a special avenue of grace apart from simple faith in Jesus to save the Israelite.

HI Wormwood - At present, I find that Jeremiah 31 will be effective to the nation of Israel in general and not to the remnant (i.e. the "7,000", Apostles, disciples, etc. - ), which will already be saved. I also believe this is a collation with Zechariah 12:10, which collates with Revelation 1:7 (they will believe after "every eye shall see Him). This will be to "All the families that remain" (Zec 12:10).

It also helps to understand that the distinction in Galatians 3:28 is in reference only to the call in Christ, not to posterity or physical differences. Meaning the call of salvation is no longer restricted to the Jews, but now extended to all; e.g. "the middle wall of partition," which separated the Jews and the Gentiles in the temple is removed (Eph 2:14), making all in Christ one new creature in Him, and in one another (new Jew and Gentile in Christ, not omitting posterity or gender).

Otherwise it would intend there is no more posterity of Jews or Gentiles, or male or female genders, etc. This will not apply to the Jews in the eschatological prophecies.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

I am one of those Gentile Christians who can clearly see God still has many favorable plans for Israel

I am saved by faith in Christ and I know of no other way to be saved.

But the salvation of Israel is not dependent upon what I do not understand.

God clearly states he does it for his own reasons and his Holy Name , he does not do it to please me or my doctrine.

And he makes it clear that Israel does not deserve it ,

However he saves Israel , it has to be done through Christ somehow , no options there ,

He has a covenant with Israel that he will honor , he has provided the ultimate and final sacrifice for the sins of Israel , and I suppose he could apply it to Israel even if they are unbelievers in the meantime.

We can see all the junk that goes on in christianity , yet we still feel secure God will not break his covenant with us.

Can he not also keep his covenants with Israel , in spite of themselves ??

I believe he can , and whether I like it or not is beside the point.

 

[Netchaplain]

And he makes it clear that Israel does not deserve it ,

However he saves Israel , it has to be done through Christ somehow , no options there ,

He has a covenant with Israel that he will honor , he has provided the ultimate and final sacrifice for the sins of Israel , and I suppose he could apply it to Israel even if they are unbelievers in the meantime.

Nobody ever deserves salvation.

Salvation is always through Christ and only the unbelieving Jews who are alive at His appearing will be the ones God puts His Spirit in. Thus they will believe in His Son, but only after they see Him. All of the unbelieving Jews who've dies before His coming are beyond redemption and saving.

 

[veteran]

There's more within that Jeremiah 31 prophecy that's easily overlooked.
Jer 31:7-10
7 For thus saith the LORD; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O LORD, save thy people, the remnant of Israel.
8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.
9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.
10 Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.
(KJV)

God specifically mentions Ephraim in relation to that "remnant" of Israel. Thing is, the tribe of Ephraim was scattered among the nations with the ten tribes and lost prior to Judah's scattering. So this above is not just talking about Jews, but all 12 tribes.

Jer 31:20-21
20 Is Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child? for since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore my bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the LORD.
21 Set thee up waymarks, make thee high heaps: set thine heart toward the highway, even the way which thou wentest: turn again, O virgin of Israel, turn again to these thy cities.
(KJV)

Again, the above is specific with the Israel involving Ephraim, which is meant about the ten lost tribes.

Jer 31:31-36
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
(KJV)

Now the above is covering both... houses, the house of Judah and the house of Israel, all 12 tribes in toto. Has this really happened yet today? It has with the ten tribed house of Israel if one understands the majority the ten tribes were scattered mainly to the west. Yet this timing is to include the "house of Judah" also, which represents the majority of Jews coming to Faith on Christ Jesus. Has that happened yet today? No. So this prophecy is yet to be completed, because it covers to the time when the majority of Jews will accept The New Covenant Jesus Christ (i.e., after Christ's second coming).
I know some have a problem with the subject of the ten lost tribes, but it is a major factor of Bible prophecy in many Scriptures of the OT prophets, this Jeremiah 31 chapter being only one of them. The way I understand this thread topic includes those prophecies about the ten tribes and especially Ephraim who was historically the head tribe over the northern ten tribes. God scattered the ten tribes mainly to Asia Minor and Europe and it was there that they began in God's promise of The New Covenant Jesus Christ, a remnant of believing Judah with them. Truly like Jesus said in Matt.21 that His vineyard would be given to another nation that would bring forth its fruits happened among the scattered tribes in the west, fulfilling the Gen.48 prophecy that Ephraim would become "a multitude of nations". This is why I see it as impossible to separate Israel apart from Christ's Church.