Israel is the Church

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amadeus

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Sorry to hear you say that Amadeus, because replacement theology is a heretical teaching , it is a false doctrine, and I believe it is also a Satanic inspired theology which promotes opposition to God's Prophetic Plan & His Purposes. It also calls into question God's Character to keep His Oaths. God knows the end from the beginning, He knew all that would take place, no surprises. Imo, it is a mistake to put words in God's mouth, or to spiritualize the name Israel, or the Nation of Israel.
I could not tell you precisely what is meant by "replacement theology". It is a term or phrase I have heard on forums such as this, but beyond that I would be hard to describe it. I believe it has something to do with the final result for the natural children of Jacob/Israel but I am not one of them.

As to my heresy, I am not one according to what I believe a heretic to be. A heretic is a person who knows the Way of God and purposely goes against it. I don't go against what I believe to be God's Way, but of course it is possible that some of my beliefs are like some of yours, ignorantly in error. But that sin of ignorance, if it is sin, would not be what is described in scripture as a sin unto death. If we endure with Him walking as we can and striving to follow the lead of the Holy Spirit, will He not be making repairs and straightening us out so long as we allow it?


Do I put words in God's mouth? Certainly not on purpose, although I am sure that at times in times when I have looked away from His face, I have inadvertently done so. Anyone not already an overcomer of all that stands between him and God has certainly done this. But... the occurrences are hopefully are diminishing in severity and frequency as we walk yielded more and more to Him. This would be the result of continuing growth toward maturity in Him.

The words I speak are rarely idle as my focus is on Jesus so as to be led and/or directed by the Holy Spirit. When I am so led/directly I do NOT misstate anything. Obviously, until I am an overcomer as Jesus I will still misstate. Sometimes I speak when I should be silent and sometimes when I speak I let the old man press forward for the moment with his idle words.

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost[Holy Spirit], whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

"Quench not the Spirit." I Thess 5:19

The Holy Spirit in us confirms God's Word and God's Word says God is Not done with Israel & that God is not fickle like man, God does not change His mind or go back upon His oaths. God is HOLY & Perfectly Righteous, He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. God has Not permanently forsaken Israel, Apostle Paul said the same in Romans. The Bible tells us that GOD is Faithful. Why would GOD go back upon His Word? That would make God no better than man.
I don't believe that God is done with the natural children of Jacob/Israel either, but that is not where or what I am in any case. I am not their judge nor am I yours. You seem to believe you should be mine although I am not certain why you think I need to be corrected by you. I am listening but we seem to be speaking different languages.

The Holy Spirit quickens what we have eaten of the flesh of Jesus if it is needed according to God and if we do not quench the Spirit. Without that quickening we do have nor do we speak the Word of God with our mouths. That which is unquickened in the Bible remains as dead as Jesus on the cross prior to His resurrection.

But GOD is GOD and He doesn't go back upon His Word. The Bible tells us that God punished Israel , but that was only for a time & not forever the Bible states, God does not take His loving kindness utterly from them. Here in Psalm 89 God speaks of His promises to David and his descendants and they will be established forever as the moon.
You are still talking about the natural children of Jacob/Israel whereas I was speaking of types or shadows of the reality of God found in the OT as they relate to us. I cannot answer all of your questions nor can I correct all of your errors. I simply strive to live for God one day at the time and...

"This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it." Psalm 118:24

"Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." Matt 6:34

Psalm 89: 30-37
"If his children forsake my law and walk not in my judgments, if they break my statutes and keep not my commandments, then will I visit their transgression with the rod and their inequity with stripes.
Never the less my loving kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail, my covenant will I NOT BREAK, Nor alter the thing that has gone out of my lips.
Once have I sworn by my Holiness: I WILL NOT Lie unto David:
His seed shall endure for ever, And his throne as the sun before Me.
It SHALL BE ESTABLISHED Forever AS THE moon, And as a FAITHFUL WITNESS in the sky."


Jeremiah 31: 36 "36“Only if this fixed order departed from My presence, declares the LORD, would Israel’s descendants ever cease to bea nation before Me.” 37 This is what the LORD says: Only if the heavens above could be measured and the foundations of the earth below searched out, would I reject all of Israel’s descendants because of all they have done,” declares the LORD.…"

Amen!
 

prism

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"And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God." Gal 6:16
Types and shadows exist throughout scriptures. Here is what Dave posted:




Anyway you look at it, Israel may be seen as Jesus, at least in a type or shadow of the reality. Israel was born to Isaac. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob/Israel were in the genealogy of Jesus as per either Matt 1 or Luke 3. What difference would the written support of some commentator make?
Yes, yes, there are places where Israel may be seen as Jesus, but Gal 6:16 is NOT one of them.
 
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Dave L

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And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
(Gal 6:16)

So you think in that verse is speaking of Jesus, as the Israel of God? I take it as the members of natural Israel who are truly believing.
Do you have a Commentary source backing up your position on Gal 6:16?
Mathew calls Jesus Israel which corresponds to Paul doing the same.

Paul says Jesus is Abraham's seed, not the unbelieving Jews Galatians 3:16. Matthew's use of Hosea reveals that Jesus IS Israel.

When Israel was a child, then I loved him, And called my son out of Egypt.” (Hosea 11:1)

“Then he [Joseph] got up, took the child and his mother during the night, and went to Egypt. He stayed there until Herod died. In this way what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet was fulfilled: “I called my Son out of Egypt.”” (Matthew 2:14–15)


When Jesus says that he is the true vine in John 15, he is making an explicit connection to Israel being called a failed vine in Isaiah 5.
 

tzcho2

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I could not tell you precisely what is meant by "replacement theology". It is a term or phrase I have heard on forums such as this, but beyond that I would be hard to describe it. I believe it has something to do with the final result for the natural children of Jacob/Israel but I am not one of them.

As to my heresy, I am not one according to what I believe a heretic to be.
I never said you are a heretic. I said the doctrine of replacement theology is a heresy, it is a false doctrine. The definition of heresy is in the dictionary and that is the one I will stick to.
heresy
[her-uh-see]

noun, plural her·e·sies.
1.opinion or doctrine at variance with the orthodox or accepted doctrine, especially of a church or religious system.
2. the maintaining of such an opinion or doctrine.
3.Roman Catholic Church . the willful and persistent rejection of any article of faith by a baptized member of the church.
4.any belief or theory that is strongly at variance with established beliefs, customs, etc.
 
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Dave L

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I never said you are a heretic. I said the doctrine of replacement theology is a heresy, it is a false doctrine.
"Replacement Theology" is pure fiction. God has only one people, Israel under Christ, and he removed the unbelievers and grafted believing gentiles into their slot.
 
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tzcho2

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"Replacement Theology" is pure fiction. God has only one people, Israel under Christ, and he removed the unbelievers and grafted believing gentiles into their slot.
You cannot read the Bible without imposing Your own beliefs upon it. That is not what the scripture says.
Romans 11: 1 " 1 I ASK , then DID GOD REJECT HIS PEOPLE? ABSOLUTELY NOT! I am an Israelite myself a descendent of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 GOD DID NOT REJECT HIS PEOPLE, Whom HE FOREKNEW. Do you not know what the Scripture says about Elijah, how he appealed to God against Israel:…
Paul goes to explain that The natural branches of the olive tree "temporarily" cut off so that the Gospel would be given to the gentiles, in order to make the Jews jealous. Paul scolded the gentiles not to be smug/ arrogant. The root belongs to the original tree not the "wild" (gentile) branches that are grafted on to it. Read the scripture in red below and don't be "uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation" . It clearly says below and continue reading the scripture in red below...." Partial hardening" has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in...." Anyone that cannot see what this scripture is saying that God has NOT put aside Israel forever but will save a remnant for Himself , must be just willfully blind and hardened towards God's truth as it is written in the scriptures.

Romans 11: 18 Do NOT BE ARROGANT toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.

25For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

26and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
“THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB.”

27“THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.”

28From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all."
 
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Dave L

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You cannot read the Bible without imposing Your own beliefs upon it. That is not what the scripture says.
Romans 11: 1 " 1 I ASK , then DID GOD REJECT HIS PEOPLE? ABSOLUTELY NOT! I am an Israelite myself a descendent of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 GOD DID NOT REJECT HIS PEOPLE, Whom HE FOREKNEW. Do you not know what the Scripture says about Elijah, how he appealed to God against Israel:…
Paul goes to explain that The natural branches of the olive tree "temporarily" cut off so that the Gospel would be given to the gentiles, in order to make the Jews jealous. Paul scolded the gentiles not to be smug/ arrogant. The root belongs to the original tree not the "wild" (gentile) branches that are grafted on to it. Read the scripture in red below and don't be "uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation" . It clearly says below and continue reading the scripture in red below...." Partial hardening" has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in...." Anyone that cannot see what this scripture is saying that God has NOT put aside Israel forever but will save a remnant for Himself , must be just willfully blind and hardened towards God's truth as it is written in the scriptures.

Romans 11: 18 Do NOT BE ARROGANT toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.

25For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

26and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
“THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB.”

27“THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.”

28From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all."
To whom does God re-graft the broken off Jews back into when they believe? Themselves or Jesus?
 
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tzcho2

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When Jesus says that he is the true vine in John 15, he is making an explicit connection to Israel being called a failed vine in Isaiah 5.
Read the article.
Jesus being the vine is not the same as what Zola was stating in his article about the Olive tree-- It is the Commonwealth of Israel read Ephesians as Apostle Paul explains it.
I certainly hope that you will not go as you have in the past , making the same mistake over and over again, & refuse to entertain the fact that Replacement Theology is Wrong & is a FALSE Teaching, it is Not WHAT the scripture states within it. To be born again, the Holy Spirit within agrees with the word of God, concurs with scripture but it is only men try to think they know better then what GOD states is His Plan and Purpose in His Word. I guess it stays a "mystery" to those who reckon themselves wise , that they become foolish.
 
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Dave L

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Read the article.
Jesus being the vine is not the same as what Zola was stating in his article about the Olive tree-- It is the Commonwealth of Israel read Ephesians as Apostle Paul explains it.
I certainly hope that you will not go as you have in the past , making the same mistake over and over again, & refuse to entertain the fact that Replacement Theology is Wrong & is a FALSE Teaching, it is Not WHAT the scripture states within it. To be born again, the Holy Spirit within agrees with the word of God, concurs with scripture but it is only men try to think they know better then what GOD states is His Plan and Purpose in His Word. I guess it stays a "mystery" to those who reckon themselves wise , that they become foolish.
Zola Levitt? No thanks. You need to study the bible for yourself.
 
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amadeus

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Yes, yes, there are places where Israel may be seen as Jesus, but Gal 6:16 is NOT one of them.
Do you see so well as that then? We all need to be moving from seeing through a glass darkly toward that "face to face":

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12

"Where there is no vision, the people perish:.." Prov 29:18

"I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see." Rev 3:18
 

Enoch111

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Zola Levitt? No thanks. You need to study the bible for yourself.
That's hilarious. Dave, if you were studying the Bible for yourself instead of following the doctrines and traditions of men, you would have a completely different set of beliefs. As things stand you are seriously confused, but you refuse to accept that, and get a grip on the truth. Are you willing to set aside all your theological baggage and study the Bible for yourself?
 
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Dave L

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That's hilarious. Dave, if you were studying the Bible for yourself instead of following the doctrines and traditions of men, you would have a completely different set of beliefs. As things stand you are seriously confused, but you refuse to accept that, and get a grip on the truth. Are you willing to set aside all your theological baggage and study the Bible for yourself?
So Zola isn't following the doctrines and traditions of men?
 

prism

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Mathew calls Jesus Israel which corresponds to Paul doing the same.

Paul says Jesus is Abraham's seed, not the unbelieving Jews Galatians 3:16. Matthew's use of Hosea reveals that Jesus IS Israel.

When Israel was a child, then I loved him, And called my son out of Egypt.” (Hosea 11:1)

“Then he [Joseph] got up, took the child and his mother during the night, and went to Egypt. He stayed there until Herod died. In this way what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet was fulfilled: “I called my Son out of Egypt.”” (Matthew 2:14–15)


When Jesus says that he is the true vine in John 15, he is making an explicit connection to Israel being called a failed vine in Isaiah 5.
I asked you a question which you seem to be struggling with...
Do you have a Commentary source backing up your position on Gal 6:16? (that when Paul is referring to Israel IN GAL. 6:16, he is identifying Israel with Jesus). I have looked at many commentaries from Reformed, Ancient, and Dispensational, and none twist that verse to apply to Jesus. I guess we will have to come up with THE NEW DAVE_L COMMENTARY.
 
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Dave L

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I asked you a question which you seem to be struggling with...
Do you have a Commentary source backing up your position on Gal 6:16? (that when Paul is referring to Israel, ESPECIALLY IN GAL. 6:16, he is identifying Israel with Jesus). I have looked at many commentaries from Reformed, Ancient, and Dispensational, and none twist that verse to apply to Jesus. I guess we will have to come up with THE NEW DAVE_L COMMENTARY.
“And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.” (Galatians 6:16)


Gal 6:16 And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and [that is, “even”] upon the Israel of God. [The Greek conjunction may mean either “and” or “even”/“namely”; hence the context must determine the meaning. If it is taken in the sense of “and,” so that “the Israel of God,” is a different body from the Church, then Paul is contradicting himself and undermining the whole point he has been making throughout his letter! However, if it means “even,” then the clear assertion that those who follow the “rule” of boasting only in the cross are in fact “the Israel of God,” becomes a very fitting conclusion, and reiterates all that he has been teaching.]

Nathan Pitchford. (n.d.). Dispensationalism and Covenant Theology.
 
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Dave L

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Forget about Zola. Focus on Dave L.
Zola and you have not one scripture linking your beliefs to the bible. The best you can do is link them to a supposed gap in the 70 weeks that scripture does not mention. And you both build your false prophecy schemes on this, lifting one scripture after another from it context to make your case.
 

prism

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Do you see so well as that then? We all need to be moving from seeing through a glass darkly toward that "face to face":

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12

"Where there is no vision, the people perish:.." Prov 29:18

"I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see." Rev 3:18
How condescending. The Scriptures are communicated plainly enough where we can glean insights and the knowledge of God and His ways, otherwise why did He give us His Word in written form as well as the living Word attesting to His written Word.
No, hiding behind 'spirituality' that demeans God's Word by downplaying it through ripping it out of it's context, just won't do.
It's true, we do not have perfect knowledge, but we do have what God has revealed.
Just out of curiosity, why didn't you pull the same argument with the one who I am taking issue with...and btw, how do you happen to have 'enough knowledge' to rebuke others since we all see through a glass darkly?
 

prism

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“And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.” (Galatians 6:16)


Gal 6:16 And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and [that is, “even”] upon the Israel of God. [The Greek conjunction may mean either “and” or “even”/“namely”; hence the context must determine the meaning. If it is taken in the sense of “and,” so that “the Israel of God,” is a different body from the Church, then Paul is contradicting himself and undermining the whole point he has been making throughout his letter! However, if it means “even,” then the clear assertion that those who follow the “rule” of boasting only in the cross are in fact “the Israel of God,” becomes a very fitting conclusion, and reiterates all that he has been teaching.]

Nathan Pitchford. (n.d.). Dispensationalism and Covenant Theology.
OK, a Reformed blogger that has written a few pamphlets. Amazon.com: nathan pitchford

Besides, in your above quote, he is simply laying out the two schools of thought on the conjunction'and' in Gal 6:16, he is not making a claim that in that verse Paul is inferring that Israel is Jesus.