Israel is the Church

[marks]

You are saying Abraham is to whom the believers are grafted back into.

Grafted into, but yes, that is right.

Paul says we (believers) are Abraham's seed along with Christ who is Israel.

How does this relate towards whether Abraham is the tree?

God teaches in Romans that both Jews and Gentiles in the faith are branches of the same tree. Branches are not the tree.

The tree supports the branches. The Root supports both Jews and Gentiles, being something Other Than. Abraham is the father of us all who believe. Israel is not the tree. Israel is branches. Gentiles are branches. Abraham is the tree.

Much love!
Mark

 

[marks]

It is true, the natural man cannot discern spiritual truth. In this case that Jesus is Israel and we who believe in him are members of Israel.

Yet another non-responsive response. I can't imagine what your point is, other than simply restating your replacement theology.

I was referring you your tit for tat responses.

"I'm not blind, you're blind!" "No, you're blind!" "No, you are!" We used to shorten the loop with "I know you are but what am I?" "Blind!" "I know you are but what am I?" "Blind!" "I know you are . . ." Well you get the idea. You know how children are. They can go on and on with this sort of thing and just go nowhere.

Much love!

 

[CoreIssue]

The Bible is really clear:

The Olive tree is Israel.
Natural branches are believing members of Israel.
The wild branches are grafted in believing Gentiles.
The roots are Jesus Christ.

Abraham is the father of many nations, believing and nonbelieving.

 

[Dave L]

Yet another non-responsive response. I can't imagine what your point is, other than simply restating your replacement theology.

I was referring you your tit for tat responses.

"I'm not blind, you're blind!" "No, you're blind!" "No, you are!" We used to shorten the loop with "I know you are but what am I?" "Blind!" "I know you are but what am I?" "Blind!" "I know you are . . ." Well you get the idea. You know how children are. They can go on and on with this sort of thing and just go nowhere.

Much love!

“But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.” (1 Corinthians 4:3–5)

 

[Dave L]

Grafted into, but yes, that is right.



How does this relate towards whether Abraham is the tree?

God teaches in Romans that both Jews and Gentiles in the faith are branches of the same tree. Branches are not the tree.

The tree supports the branches. The Root supports both Jews and Gentiles, being something Other Than. Abraham is the father of us all who believe. Israel is not the tree. Israel is branches. Gentiles are branches. Abraham is the tree.

Much love!
Mark

Circumcision not blood, made one a physical Jew and Physical member of Israel. When Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross. that generation was the last. When they died off nothing remained to make one a physical member. Only through faith in Christ are any reattached to Israel under Christ.

 

[CoreIssue]

Circumcision not blood, made one a physical Jew and Physical member of Israel. When Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross. that generation was the last. When they died off nothing remained to make one a physical member. Only through faith in Christ are any reattached to Israel under Christ.

 

[Dave L]

View attachment 5668

You need to know this. It destroys lots of false doctrine being swallowed today.

 

[CoreIssue]

You need to know this. It destroys lots of false doctrine being swallowed today.

But creates more than it answers.

 

[marks]

Circumcision not blood, made one a physical Jew and Physical member of Israel. When Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross. that generation was the last. When they died off nothing remained to make one a physical member. Only through faith in Christ are any reattached to Israel under Christ.

And that is why you have to come up with a New Israel. You believe God has cast away Israel, yet there are still promises to keep, and they have to be to someone, so why not us?

Much love!
mark

 

[Dave L]

The History of today's Israel (the Pharisees) according to their resources.

Following are a couple of brief quotes from the Jewish Encyclopedia, The Talmud (Jewish oral traditions in written form), and one from a leading Rabbi today. They claim Pharisaism as the continuing Jewish religion.

According to the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia, the Pharisees are today’s Jews.

“With the destruction of the Temple (70 A.D.) the Sadducees disappeared altogether, leaving the regulation of all Jewish affairs in the hands of the Pharisees. Henceforth, Jewish life was regulated by the Pharisees; the whole history of Judaism was reconstructed from the Pharisaic point of view, and a new aspect was given to the Sanhedrin of the past. A new chain of tradition supplanted the older priestly tradition (Abot 1:1). Pharisaism shaped the character of Judaism and the life and thought of the Jew for all the future.” The 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia Edited by Isadore Singer

From the Universal Jewish Encyclopedia (1943):

“The Jewish religion as it is today traces its descent, without a break, through all the centuries, from the Pharisees. Their leading ideas and methods found expression in a literature of enormous extent, of which a very great deal is still in existence. The Talmud is the largest and most important single piece of that literature … and the study of it is essential for any real understanding of Pharisaism.”

From the Talmud

Thus began the Talmud, mainly oral at first. Teacher succeeded teacher in synagogue and school. Their sayings and rulings based on the Book were treasured. The Sadducees, representing the extreme latitudinarians in life, opposed the continuous interpretation and reinterpretation of the Law to meet changing circumstances. They failed and disappeared. The Pharisees who provided the chief teachers of the Law succeeded and remained, and the Talmud is not the least of their achievements. BABA METZIAH – 91a-119a 93 INTRODUCTORY ESSAY (Soncino Babylonian Talmud) by THE EDITOR RABBI DR I . EPSTEIN B.A., Ph.D., D. Lit.

Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz (popular today and editor of his own version of the Talmud); commentary on BT Sanhedrin 59a

Access to the Talmud is not a crime for those who refrain from criticizing the religion of Judaism (“vexing Jews”). Jesus Christ quoted the forerunner of the Talmud, the Mishnah as it was repeated in its oral form. As a critic of those Pharisaic doctrines he had no right to study them, according to the rabbis, and He paid for His study and critical evaluation with His life. The same fate awaits all skeptical researchers and scholars who dare to peer into the pages of the Talmud. From Michael Hoffman. Judaism Discovered.

If you study the Talmud, especially the uncensored Soncino Babylonian version, it doesn't take long to see how vile the collection is.

 

[marks]

“But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.” (1 Corinthians 4:3–5)

True of all of us!
Much love!
mark

 

[Dave L]

And that is why you have to come up with a New Israel. You believe God has cast away Israel, yet there are still promises to keep, and they have to be to someone, so why not us?

Much love!
mark

Paul, the Apostles, and the thousands of converts in Acts are Israel. Into whom we are grafted in place of the broken off unbelievers by faith.

 

[marks]

The History of today's Israel (the Pharisees) according to their resources.

Following are a couple of brief quotes from the Jewish Encyclopedia, The Talmud (Jewish oral traditions in written form), and one from a leading Rabbi today. They claim Pharisaism as the continuing Jewish religion.

According to the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia, the Pharisees are today’s Jews.

“With the destruction of the Temple (70 A.D.) the Sadducees disappeared altogether, leaving the regulation of all Jewish affairs in the hands of the Pharisees. Henceforth, Jewish life was regulated by the Pharisees; the whole history of Judaism was reconstructed from the Pharisaic point of view, and a new aspect was given to the Sanhedrin of the past. A new chain of tradition supplanted the older priestly tradition (Abot 1:1). Pharisaism shaped the character of Judaism and the life and thought of the Jew for all the future.” The 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia Edited by Isadore Singer

From the Universal Jewish Encyclopedia (1943):

“The Jewish religion as it is today traces its descent, without a break, through all the centuries, from the Pharisees. Their leading ideas and methods found expression in a literature of enormous extent, of which a very great deal is still in existence. The Talmud is the largest and most important single piece of that literature … and the study of it is essential for any real understanding of Pharisaism.”

From the Talmud

Thus began the Talmud, mainly oral at first. Teacher succeeded teacher in synagogue and school. Their sayings and rulings based on the Book were treasured. The Sadducees, representing the extreme latitudinarians in life, opposed the continuous interpretation and reinterpretation of the Law to meet changing circumstances. They failed and disappeared. The Pharisees who provided the chief teachers of the Law succeeded and remained, and the Talmud is not the least of their achievements. BABA METZIAH – 91a-119a 93 INTRODUCTORY ESSAY (Soncino Babylonian Talmud) by THE EDITOR RABBI DR I . EPSTEIN B.A., Ph.D., D. Lit.

Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz (popular today and editor of his own version of the Talmud); commentary on BT Sanhedrin 59a

Access to the Talmud is not a crime for those who refrain from criticizing the religion of Judaism (“vexing Jews”). Jesus Christ quoted the forerunner of the Talmud, the Mishnah as it was repeated in its oral form. As a critic of those Pharisaic doctrines he had no right to study them, according to the rabbis, and He paid for His study and critical evaluation with His life. The same fate awaits all skeptical researchers and scholars who dare to peer into the pages of the Talmud. From Michael Hoffman. Judaism Discovered.

If you study the Talmud, especially the uncensored Soncino Babylonian version, it doesn't take long to see how vile the collection is.

Um . . . isn't that all about the teaching and culture, not who the people are?

 

[Dave L]

But creates more than it answers.

Study the history of the Jews from the bible. It's an eye opener.

 

[Dave L]

Um . . . isn't that all about the teaching and culture, not who the people are?

Use the bible to define the bible.

 

[marks]

Paul, the Apostles, and the thousands of converts in Acts are Israel. Into whom we are grafted in place of the broken off unbelievers by faith.

Not. God has a chosen nation, and the world may stop turning, the sun may stop rising, but He shall not forget His people. And this was spoken to the descendant of Jacob.

Much love!
Mark

 

[marks]

Use the bible to define the bible.

I'm responding to your extra-Biblical sources.

Talk about running in circles!

I'd have to say, take you own advice.

LOL!

Much love!
Mark

 

[Dave L]

Not. God has a chosen nation, and the world may stop turning, the sun may stop rising, but He shall not forget His people. And this was spoken to the descendant of Jacob.

Much love!
Mark

“But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:” (1 Peter 2:9)

 

[marks]

“But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:” (1 Peter 2:9)

And . . . this relates how?

Nothing in this passage states that gentiles become Israel when they become Christians.

 

[Dave L]

I'm responding to your extra-Biblical sources.

Talk about running in circles!

I'd have to say, take you own advice.

LOL!

Much love!
Mark

Name them.