Israel is the Church

[Dave L]

And . . . this relates how?

You are Israel, not those who hate Christ and call themselves Israel.

 

[Dave L]

And . . . this relates how?

Nothing in this passage states that gentiles become Israel when they become Christians.

Jesus is Israel in the NT and we are his body.

 

[marks]

Name them.

What? Name what? Your extra-Biblical sources?

What are we even doing here?

See below:

The History of today's Israel (the Pharisees) according to their resources.

Following are a couple of brief quotes from the Jewish Encyclopedia, The Talmud (Jewish oral traditions in written form), and one from a leading Rabbi today. They claim Pharisaism as the continuing Jewish religion.

According to the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia, the Pharisees are today’s Jews.

“With the destruction of the Temple (70 A.D.) the Sadducees disappeared altogether, leaving the regulation of all Jewish affairs in the hands of the Pharisees. Henceforth, Jewish life was regulated by the Pharisees; the whole history of Judaism was reconstructed from the Pharisaic point of view, and a new aspect was given to the Sanhedrin of the past. A new chain of tradition supplanted the older priestly tradition (Abot 1:1). Pharisaism shaped the character of Judaism and the life and thought of the Jew for all the future.” The 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia Edited by Isadore Singer

From the Universal Jewish Encyclopedia (1943):

“The Jewish religion as it is today traces its descent, without a break, through all the centuries, from the Pharisees. Their leading ideas and methods found expression in a literature of enormous extent, of which a very great deal is still in existence. The Talmud is the largest and most important single piece of that literature … and the study of it is essential for any real understanding of Pharisaism.”

From the Talmud

Thus began the Talmud, mainly oral at first. Teacher succeeded teacher in synagogue and school. Their sayings and rulings based on the Book were treasured. The Sadducees, representing the extreme latitudinarians in life, opposed the continuous interpretation and reinterpretation of the Law to meet changing circumstances. They failed and disappeared. The Pharisees who provided the chief teachers of the Law succeeded and remained, and the Talmud is not the least of their achievements. BABA METZIAH – 91a-119a 93 INTRODUCTORY ESSAY (Soncino Babylonian Talmud) by THE EDITOR RABBI DR I . EPSTEIN B.A., Ph.D., D. Lit.

Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz (popular today and editor of his own version of the Talmud); commentary on BT Sanhedrin 59a

Access to the Talmud is not a crime for those who refrain from criticizing the religion of Judaism (“vexing Jews”). Jesus Christ quoted the forerunner of the Talmud, the Mishnah as it was repeated in its oral form. As a critic of those Pharisaic doctrines he had no right to study them, according to the rabbis, and He paid for His study and critical evaluation with His life. The same fate awaits all skeptical researchers and scholars who dare to peer into the pages of the Talmud. From Michael Hoffman. Judaism Discovered.

If you study the Talmud, especially the uncensored Soncino Babylonian version, it doesn't take long to see how vile the collection is.

 

[Dave L]

What? Name what? Your extra-Biblical sources?

What are we even doing here?

See below:

Those are Jewish resources showing that today's "Jews" are Pharisees.

 

[marks]

You are Israel, not those who hate Christ and call themselves Israel.

Once again, this doesn't answer my question, just restates your assertion, and therefore counts as yet another logical fallacy.

 

[marks]

Jesus is Israel in the NT and we are his body.

Again . . . does not anwer the question, restates the assertion, and advances not at all.

Spinning in circles.

 

[Dave L]

Once again, this doesn't answer my question, just restates your assertion, and therefore counts as yet another logical fallacy.

If Jesus is Israel, to whom are believers in him grafted into?

 

[marks]

Those are Jewish resources showing that today's "Jews" are Pharisees.

Read your sources. They are talking about the religion of the Jews, not the ethicity of the people.

 

[Dave L]

Again . . . does not anwer the question, restates the assertion, and advances not at all.

Spinning in circles.

You should know this if you study the bible.

 

[marks]

If Jesus is Israel, to whom are believers in him grafted into?

You are quickly demonatrating that you won't answer my questions.

One must wonder why that is.

 

[marks]

You should know this if you study the bible.

Another non-answer. You are really dodging this one!

 

[Dave L]

Read your sources. They are talking about the religion of the Jews, not the ethicity of the people.

Ethnicity means nothing. Circumcision made even gentiles Jews in the OT.

 

[Dave L]

Another non-answer. You are really dodging this one!

No dodge, just showing you should know these things.

 

[marks]

Ethnicity means nothing. Circumcision made even gentiles Jews in the OT.

Again non responsive. Your sources do make a statement towards who the Jews are, they are about the religion of the Jews. Perhaps you would like to read through them again.

And there remains the question of how your quote from Peter supports your assertions, which it does not actually do.

 

[Dave L]

You are quickly demonatrating that you won't answer my questions.

One must wonder why that is.

One must wonder why you cannot grasp the simple truth of Circumcision making one a physical Jew.

 

[marks]

No dodge, just showing you should know these things.

I'm disputing these things, as if that was some secret.

So . . . yes, when I'm asking you to support your statements, and you do not, that is you dodging my questions.

 

[Dave L]

Again non responsive. Your sources do make a statement towards who the Jews are, they are about the religion of the Jews. Perhaps you would like to read through them again.

And there remains the question of how your quote from Peter supports your assertions, which it does not actually do.

When did God institute circumcision? Answer this correctly and I'll guide you the rest of the way.

 

[Dave L]

I'm disputing these things, as if that was some secret.

So . . . yes, when I'm asking you to support your statements, and you do not, that is you dodging my questions.

You need to study Jewish history from the bible.

 

[marks]

One must wonder why you cannot grasp the simple truth of Circumcision making one a physical Jew.

One must wonder why you are so completely non-responsive, simply returning to restate your assertions, and we run and run and run in circles because you will not give an answer.

So . . . it gets boring.

 

[Dave L]

One must wonder why you are so completely non-responsive, simply returning to restate your assertions, and we run and run and run in circles because you will not give an answer.

So . . . it gets boring.

If you take time to study Jewish history from the bible, you will clear up lots of tangles the Dispensationalists have tied you with.