It is not in the bible.....sola scripture

[bbyrd009]

There is only one truth, Jesus Christ

ah well a minnit ago every objective truth under the sun could be derived from Scripture, so what gives?

as for pride Jesus wont allow that in a man

lol, priceless. But I have to have misunderstood you here; could you rephrase this? Pride does not exist?

 

[Mjh29]

Bbyrd009, let me do a little role play to prove that there needs to be and is an objective truth
Hi, I'm a murder. I am in prison for my crimes, yet there is a problem: I dont think what I did is wrong. I think I was completely justified in what I did. Am I wrong?

 

[Mungo]

Bbyrd009, let me do a little role play to prove that there needs to be and is an objective truth
Hi, I'm a murder. I am in prison for my crimes, yet there is a problem: I dont think what I did is wrong. I think I was completely justified in what I did. Am I wrong?

Wrong in the moral sense or wrong in the legal sense?

 

[Mjh29]

Wrong in the moral sense or wrong in the legal sense?

Morally. Keep in mind we are talking hypothetically: if there were no objective standard.

 

[Mungo]

Morally. Keep in mind we are talking hypothetically: if there were no objective standard.

OK,
I'll leave it to Bbyrd009 to reply. I just wanted to clarify.

 

[Mjh29]

OK,
I'll leave it to Bbyrd009 to reply. I just wanted to clarify.

Thanks! I kinda missed that specification lol.

 

[bbyrd009]

Bbyrd009, let me do a little role play to prove that there needs to be and is an objective truth
Hi, I'm a murder. I am in prison for my crimes, yet there is a problem: I dont think what I did is wrong. I think I was completely justified in what I did. Am I wrong?

ah; if you don't tag me in some way, i am not aware when you ask, ok. Sorry.

To answer your question i have no idea whether the murder was justified or not, but i could easily postulate scenarios in which a jury might have found him not guilty.

 

[Mjh29]

ah; if you don't tag me in some way, i am not aware when you ask, ok. Sorry.

To answer your question i have no idea whether the murder was justified or not, but i could easily postulate scenarios in which a jury might have found him not guilty.

I murdered some random person on the street.... but does it matter?

 

[bbyrd009]

I murdered some random person on the street.... but does it matter?

no, actually it does not. What really matters is that you are calling me to make a judgement, in Law, which by definition is not Grace. And this will not get us any closer to any absolute or objective truth. What is a sin for me may not have been a sin for him, and he does not have to answer to me, see, under Grace.

So you bring the concept of murder, in order to illuminate an objective truth, when even the Law recognizes degrees of crime/no crime there, manslaughter, justifiable homicide, homicide, etc. So, in order to reply to your Q in the logical frame from which it is asked, it most definitely does matter. Objective truth exists in Law, but it is a construct, imaginary, and disappears in Grace; else a sin for me would be a sin for you, etc.

More to the point, i think, is that i have offered to be instructed by any objective truth that you or anyone else reading this believes that they can abstract from Scripture, but have yet to read a post of any, and i can tell you from experience that no post will be forthcoming.

Objective truth as it is presented to us is a lie, a chimera, that only seems like it should be true, as any lawyer will readily admit. "There is no place for truth in a courtroom." etc

the chimera is made up of our desire to know something and, what...our desire to be right, maybe? To manifest the kingdom legally/literally? Something like that. There's a better way to put it prolly, but my coffee has worn off lol.

 

[Mjh29]

no, actually it does not. What really matters is that you are calling me to make a judgement, in Law, which by definition is not Grace. And this will not get us any closer to any absolute or objective truth. What is a sin for me may not have been a sin for him, and he does not have to answer to me, see, under Grace.

So you bring the concept of murder, in order to illuminate an objective truth, when even the Law recognizes degrees of crime/no crime there, manslaughter, justifiable homicide, homicide, etc. So, in order to reply to your Q in the logical frame from which it is asked, it most definitely does matter. Objective truth exists in Law, but it is a construct, imaginary, and disappears in Grace; else a sin for me would be a sin for you, etc.

More to the point, i think, is that i have offered to be instructed by any objective truth that you or anyone else reading this believes that they can abstract from Scripture, but have yet to read a post of any, and i can tell you from experience that no post will be forthcoming.

Objective truth as it is presented to us is a lie, a chimera, that only seems like it should be true, as any lawyer will readily admit. "There is no place for truth in a courtroom." etc

So if no one can make judgement should we punish criminals? Is there such a thing as a criminal?

 

[bbyrd009]

So if no one can make judgement should we punish criminals?

but i did not say that no one can make a judgement; i just said that judgements = Law. imo my most pertinent remark there was "even a judge sees degrees of culpability, where you might posit that there is none."

Is there such a thing as a criminal?

in Law, yes, there certainly is; but Grace suggests that they mostly wear suits and ties, i guess. So "criminal" is a judgement call, and of course Christ was found guilty of crimes and is a criminal, at least to someone, some body. Was Christ a criminal?

 

[bbyrd009]

see, we are getting further from "objective truth" by the second, are we not

 

[Mjh29]

see, we are getting further from "objective truth" by the second, are we not

what gives judges the right? Why can they make judgments?

 

[Mjh29]

What is a sin for me may not have been a sin for him

Well..... then we have one of 2 options: if this above statement is true, then
1. No one ever sins, because sin is a matter of personal opinion
2. There must be some way to define sin..... if only there were a book of some sort that gave us this objective truth.....hmmmmm......

 

[Mungo]

What is a sin for me may not have been a sin for him

Well..... then we have one of 2 options: if this above statement is true, then
1. No one ever sins, because sin is a matter of personal opinion
2. There must be some way to define sin..... if only there were a book of some sort that gave us this objective truth.....hmmmmm......

It's not a matter of personal opinion, but bbyrd009 is correct to say that what is a sin for one person may not be a sin for another.

A sin requires three components:
1. A transgression of God's laws or commands
2. Full knowledge - a person must know and understand that the transgression is against God's laws or commands
3. Deliberate consent.

I can't see how that relates to objective truth though.

 

[Mungo]

BTW has anybody defined what is meant by "objective truth" (or indeed just "truth"?

 

[tabletalk]

A sin requires three components:
1. A transgression of God's laws or commands
2. Full knowledge - a person must know and understand that the transgression is against God's laws or commands
3. Deliberate consent.[/QUOTE

I don't think so. But this might be a good subject for a different thead on one of the forums.

 

[Mjh29]

BTW has anybody defined what is meant by "objective truth" (or indeed just "truth"?

To me the only objective truth is the Bible

 

[bbyrd009]

what gives judges the right? Why can they make judgments?

um, totally winging it now, but imo because they operate under a different system, namely the Rule of Law. The world, iow. A completely necessary vehicle, i guess, at least until we abolish greed, love of money.

 

[bbyrd009]

Well..... then we have one of 2 options: if this above statement is true, then
1. No one ever sins, because sin is a matter of personal opinion
2. There must be some way to define sin..... if only there were a book of some sort that gave us this objective truth.....hmmmmm......

the Book gives no objective truth--or at least i am still waiting there--and It is the same Book that tells us a sin for me is not necessarily a sin for you. Contrast this with the Rule of Law, wherein--ostensibly, at least, even if not really true, because money--all are held to the same standard.