1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

It is not in the bible.....sola scripture

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics Forum' started by twinc, Apr 3, 2017.

  1. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,344
    Likes Received:
    188
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    Mary,

    To which view of the 'Torah' are you referring? See HERE. To some Jews, the Torah means more than the first 5 books of Moses, so I'm wondering to which Torah your understanding is applied.

    Oz
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2017
  2. Marymog

    Marymog Active Member

    Messages:
    919
    Likes Received:
    95
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Dear sir,

    You are completely and utterly wrong my friend. That passage from scripture is black and white however I will agree with you that SOME scripture is not black and white. At no point in that passage does Jesus speak of anything other than material items. He does not infer, imply, suggest it or reveal to his apostles in a later conversation that he meant anything other than material items.

    I don't like twisting of scripture. If your post twist scripture, which they do, then I don't like them.

    Scripture also says the enemy came and planted weeds among the wheat and that the ignorant and unstable twist scripture to their own destruction. Are you planting weeds or wheat?

    IHS...Mary




     
  3. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,716
    Likes Received:
    481
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    The interesting thing is that Peter went back to fishing briefly after Jesus died. (John 21:3). So appearently his old business wasn't hard to go back to.

    John 6:67-68 KJV
    Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? [68] Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

    He said "to whom shall we go. Thou hast the words..." I am sorry. But I fail to see where Peter understood this to be material things.
     
    "ByGrace" likes this.
  4. Marymog

    Marymog Active Member

    Messages:
    919
    Likes Received:
    95
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Hi FHII,

    Peter responded to Jesus by saying, “Look, we have left everything and followed you. What then will we have?”

    Peter and the other Apostles left their families, homes, jobs etc. What do you think he meant by leaving everything?

    I don't understand why you are bringing a totally different conversation/event from scriputure into the discussion. John 6 has NOTHING to do with Matthew 19.

    Thank you for your input though.

    IHS...Mary
     
  5. Marymog

    Marymog Active Member

    Messages:
    919
    Likes Received:
    95
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Dear sir,

    At no point in Matthew 19 does Jesus speak of anything other than material items.

    Is there a passage in scripture that supports your statement/theory?

    Curious Mary
     
  6. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,716
    Likes Received:
    481
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Ok
     
  7. Marymog

    Marymog Active Member

    Messages:
    919
    Likes Received:
    95
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    What do you think he meant by leaving everything?
     
  8. Marymog

    Marymog Active Member

    Messages:
    919
    Likes Received:
    95
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Dear sir,

    I am simply asking you what you meant by the statement you made to Kepha: Haven't you heard of the Old Testament that was available when James was writing?

    This has nothing to do with which Torah my understanding is applied. It has to do with YOUR STATEMENT.

    I, Marymog, have not heard of the Old Testament that was available to James when he was writing.

    Can you , OzSpen, please tell me what that Old Testament is that YOU have spoken of?

    How much clearer can I be???o_O

    Respectfully...Mary
     
  9. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,716
    Likes Received:
    481
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I agree with you Mary... That verse is talking about leaving everything. He didn't abandon all family (there was still his brother and he was married). He later went back to fishing so he still had the means. But yes. Temporaily he gave his former life.
     
  10. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

    Messages:
    9,716
    Likes Received:
    1,040
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I think it was a call for Jewish people to apply their doctrine
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2017
  11. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,716
    Likes Received:
    481
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States

    Is all this really necessary? What we now call the OT was available back then. Should we really make a big deal about what is was called?

    Ok. Look, in 2 Cor 3:14 Paul refers to the Torah as "the old testament". I don't know if James wrote before 2 Cor... But its in the ballpark.

    2 Corinthians 3:14 KJV
    But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

    So there was an OT back then. Even without this verse its clear that there was some scripture which we now call the OT.
     
    aspen likes this.
  12. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,344
    Likes Received:
    188
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    amadeus,

    It is dangerous when any Bible interpreter does not deal with the plain, literal meaning of the text, which allows for symbols, figures of speech such as metaphors, parables, etc.

    So, how do you find the meaning of the Greek, πειρασμός (peirasmos) in the NT to translate it into English? Are you going to rely on the deeper meaning you recommend or will you turn to specialist Greek lexicons and word studies to find the meaning?

    The leaders/preachers of the church should be teaching them this biblical standard: 'Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true' (Acts 17:11 NIV).

    Any Christian leader worth his or her salt should be teaching all believers (incl. simple believers) and he has to,

    '14Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. 15Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth (2 Tim 2:14-15 NIV, emphasis added).​

    Timothy was ministering to the church in Ephesus (2 Tim 1:18; 4:12) when Paul wrote to him. As a leader, Timothy was told that he was to be one 'who correctlly handles the word of truth' as he reminded and warned 'God's people'. There is no distinction here among high IQ or 'below average basic intelligence'.

    You seem to have a blockage against those with higher IQ when there are many people with lower IQ in western and non-western culture who are worshipping other gods. Those with any IQ can have a blockage because they 'suppress the truth in their unrighteousness' (Rom 1:18). No IQ is exempt from that category.

    What is your advice based on? From where does that advice come?

    I'm sure glad I'm not of your persuasion: 'No black and white rules that apply to everyone'. There most certainly are black and white rules for all people. In your compendium of rules, is it legal
    • to murder,
    • to steal,
    • to lie,
    • give false testimony,
    • to commit adultery,
    • to be a paedophile or an illicit drug dealer, serve other gods and get into God's kingdom,
    • to engage in fraud & extortion;
    • promote terrorism and become a terrorist,
    So there are no black and white rules for you, but there definitely are for me.

    Did you answer my question? To which question are you referring?

    Oz
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2017
  13. Marymog

    Marymog Active Member

    Messages:
    919
    Likes Received:
    95
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    It isn't necessary. As you can see I attempted to clarify what he meant by referencing the Torah. OzSpen the began to question me. He has me confused.
    Dear sir,

    I try to never assume what someone else means when they make an open ended comment.

    FYI....Historically we know that different sects of Jews accepted or had different books in their Testament (what we now call the Old Testament). That is why Jesus responded to Jewish leaders in different ways. His response to them was dependent on what books they accepted/rejected. But I suspect you knew that already?

    So to ask what someone means, in this case OzSpen, what books of the Old Testament that James read is in fact a legitimate question and really necessary.

    If you have a basic knowledge of your Christian faith it isn't a big deal. If you have in depth knowledge on the colligate level that OzSpen and I have of your Christian faith....it is a big deal.

    Respectfully...Mary
     
  14. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

    Messages:
    9,716
    Likes Received:
    1,040
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Oh my.....
     
    "ByGrace" and FHII like this.
  15. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,716
    Likes Received:
    481
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Yea... Pretty much how I feel too.
     
    "ByGrace" and aspen like this.
  16. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,344
    Likes Received:
    188
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    Mary,

    It was you who asked me in #1362: 'Are you speaking of the Jewish writings (i.e. Torah) that Jesus and the Apostles would have quoted from or read (which eventually we Christians called the Old testament)?'

    I asked you for clarification of what you meant by Torah when the Jews had a few different understandings of that collection of books.

    Although it seems that NT writers used the Greek translation of the OT (the Septuagint - LXX) and the LXX contained the Apocrypha (deuterocanonical books), no direct quotations from the OT Apocrypha have been found in the NT. See the article by Roger Nicole, New Testament Use of the Old Testament.

    You asked, 'I, Marymog, have not heard of the Old Testament that was available to James when he was writing'. Are you serious that you didn't know of the OT Scripture James referred to?

    To what was James referring when he stated:

    If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11 For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,” also said, “You shall not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker (James 2:9-11 NIV, emphasis added).​

    So, where do I find these statements to which James refers?
    • The royal law;
    • Scripture;
    • Convicted by the law as lawbreakers;
    • Become a lawbreaker.
    Where 'in Scripture' prior to James' writing do we find:
    • 'Love your neighbor as yourself';
    • 'You shall not commit adultery';
    • 'You shall not murder'.
    Oz
     
    Marymog likes this.
  17. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,814
    Likes Received:
    1,527
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Who decides which ones are black and white? You or your church leadership? Sounds to me like someone is limiting God. They want to put Him a box and He does not fit.

    The OT is full of types and shadows of the reality of God. In the NT we see more of the reality of God, but there are also still many types and shadows.

    As to whether I am planting weeds or wheat you will never know if you do not hear from God for yourself. His sheep hear His voice. Are you a sheep or a goat?

    "To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
    And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
    And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers." John 10:3-5

    "And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
    And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left." Matt 25:32-33
     
  18. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,814
    Likes Received:
    1,527
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

    So Jesus is Truth. Anyone who knows Him absolutely would know absolute truth, but who does? However, if a person has access to Jesus does he not have access to absolute truth? Who has access to Him?
     
    "ByGrace" likes this.
  19. tabletalk

    tabletalk Active Member

    Messages:
    466
    Likes Received:
    202
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Fallible people decide what is absolute truth.
     
    bbyrd009 and aspen like this.
  20. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,842
    Likes Received:
    102
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    But not on their own.
     
Loading...