It is not in the bible.....sola scripture

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OzSpen

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Hi Oz,

You asked the question of Kepha: Haven't you heard of the Old Testament that was available when James was writing?

Since I, Marymog, have not heard of the OT that was available to James and
I want to expand my knowledge I am asking you:

Are you speaking of the Jewish writings (i.e. Torah) that Jesus and the Apostles would have quoted from or read (which eventually we Christians called the Old testament)?


You weren't asking me since this is the first time we have communicated about this subject. ;)

Respectfully...Mary

Mary,

To which view of the 'Torah' are you referring? See HERE. To some Jews, the Torah means more than the first 5 books of Moses, so I'm wondering to which Torah your understanding is applied.

Oz
 
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Marymog

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It is not all black and white even though you may believe so. They tried the black in white in the OT and found that it did not work as Peter made clear.

The same mind is the mind of Jesus who is the Head. The rest of us are to follow and obey the Head, but our functions are not the same. I don't preach or teach anything opposed to scripture. I do admit that at times our understanding is different. This could be due to less than good hearing.



Apparently you don't like any of my posts, so for what purpose would I write a lesson for you?

"I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase." I Cor 3:6-7
Dear sir,

You are completely and utterly wrong my friend. That passage from scripture is black and white however I will agree with you that SOME scripture is not black and white. At no point in that passage does Jesus speak of anything other than material items. He does not infer, imply, suggest it or reveal to his apostles in a later conversation that he meant anything other than material items.

I don't like twisting of scripture. If your post twist scripture, which they do, then I don't like them.

Scripture also says the enemy came and planted weeds among the wheat and that the ignorant and unstable twist scripture to their own destruction. Are you planting weeds or wheat?

IHS...Mary




 

FHII

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Even Peter understood that Jesus meant material possessions when he responded by saying, “Look, we have left everything and followed you. What then will we have?”
The interesting thing is that Peter went back to fishing briefly after Jesus died. (John 21:3). So appearently his old business wasn't hard to go back to.

John 6:67-68 KJV
Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? [68] Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

He said "to whom shall we go. Thou hast the words..." I am sorry. But I fail to see where Peter understood this to be material things.
 
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Marymog

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The interesting thing is that Peter went back to fishing briefly after Jesus died. (John 21:3). So appearently his old business wasn't hard to go back to.

John 6:67-68 KJV
Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? [68] Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

He said "to whom shall we go. Thou hast the words..." I am sorry. But I fail to see where Peter understood this to be material things.
Hi FHII,

Peter responded to Jesus by saying, “Look, we have left everything and followed you. What then will we have?”

Peter and the other Apostles left their families, homes, jobs etc. What do you think he meant by leaving everything?

I don't understand why you are bringing a totally different conversation/event from scriputure into the discussion. John 6 has NOTHING to do with Matthew 19.

Thank you for your input though.

IHS...Mary
 

Marymog

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I do understand your hesitation and do not suggest that you change a thing for me or for anyone else who presses you to do so. See Paul's advice:

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Phil 2:12

All the decisions are yours. I could perhaps write a whole lesson on your question using many scriptures, but that would not necessarily simplify your questions nor determine for you the best way to go.

The simplest verse that comes to mind is one I cited earlier in this thread:

"Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Matt 5:3. For me the poor in spirit opposes the rich in spirit, the former being our goal and the latter what needs to be avoided.

Upon reading that verse you are then left to wonder [if you do not already know] what is it that Jesus is saying to us? To me He is saying what I have already explained, but as I have said or inferred the decision remains with you. No one walks in your shoes, but you.
Dear sir,

At no point in Matthew 19 does Jesus speak of anything other than material items.

Is there a passage in scripture that supports your statement/theory?

Curious Mary
 

FHII

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Hi FHII,

Peter responded to Jesus by saying, “Look, we have left everything and followed you. What then will we have?”

Peter and the other Apostles left their families, homes, jobs etc. What do you think he meant by leaving everything?

I don't understand why you are bringing a totally different conversation/event from scriputure into the discussion. John 6 has NOTHING to do with Matthew 19.

Thank you for your input though.

IHS...Mary
Ok
 

Marymog

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Mary,

To which view of the 'Torah' are you referring? See HERE. To some Jews, the Torah means more than the first 5 books of Moses, so I'm wondering to which Torah your understanding is applied.
Oz
Dear sir,

I am simply asking you what you meant by the statement you made to Kepha: Haven't you heard of the Old Testament that was available when James was writing?

This has nothing to do with which Torah my understanding is applied. It has to do with YOUR STATEMENT.

I, Marymog, have not heard of the Old Testament that was available to James when he was writing.

Can you , OzSpen, please tell me what that Old Testament is that YOU have spoken of?

How much clearer can I be???o_O

Respectfully...Mary
 

FHII

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What do you think he meant by leaving everything?
I agree with you Mary... That verse is talking about leaving everything. He didn't abandon all family (there was still his brother and he was married). He later went back to fishing so he still had the means. But yes. Temporaily he gave his former life.
 

aspen

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I agree with you Mary... That verse is talking about leaving everything. He didn't abandon all family (there was still his brother and he was married). He later went back to fishing so he still had the means. But yes. Temporaily he gave his former life.

I think it was a call for Jewish people to apply their doctrine
 
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FHII

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Dear sir,

I am simply asking you what you meant by the statement you made to Kepha: Haven't you heard of the Old Testament that was available when James was writing?

This has nothing to do with which Torah my understanding is applied. It has to do with YOUR STATEMENT.

I, Marymog, have not heard of the Old Testament that was available to James when he was writing.

Can you , OzSpen, please tell me what that Old Testament is that YOU have spoken of?

How much clearer can I be???o_O

Respectfully...Mary


Is all this really necessary? What we now call the OT was available back then. Should we really make a big deal about what is was called?

Ok. Look, in 2 Cor 3:14 Paul refers to the Torah as "the old testament". I don't know if James wrote before 2 Cor... But its in the ballpark.

2 Corinthians 3:14 KJV
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

So there was an OT back then. Even without this verse its clear that there was some scripture which we now call the OT.
 
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OzSpen

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Dangerous? Perhaps in one sense, but in another there is the problem of simply accepting only the literal meaning when another meaning exists, or the problem of following the meanings provided by any expert, or church group, or pastor, or minister, or evangelist without digging deeper. The digging is not speaking only or such alternatives or even of our own logical study of the scriptures yourself.

amadeus,

It is dangerous when any Bible interpreter does not deal with the plain, literal meaning of the text, which allows for symbols, figures of speech such as metaphors, parables, etc.

So, how do you find the meaning of the Greek, πειρασμός (peirasmos) in the NT to translate it into English? Are you going to rely on the deeper meaning you recommend or will you turn to specialist Greek lexicons and word studies to find the meaning?

So what is the solution for a simple believer who does not know all of the scriptures that well. Many of them will simply go the way of their presumed leaders, which usually would consist of the ministers in the place they attend church if they do. The ones who don't or won't do that are perhaps the ones for which you express concern, although the ones that do may also miss the mark.

The leaders/preachers of the church should be teaching them this biblical standard: 'Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true' (Acts 17:11 NIV).

Any Christian leader worth his or her salt should be teaching all believers (incl. simple believers) and he has to,

'14Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. 15Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth (2 Tim 2:14-15 NIV, emphasis added).​

Timothy was ministering to the church in Ephesus (2 Tim 1:18; 4:12) when Paul wrote to him. As a leader, Timothy was told that he was to be one 'who correctlly handles the word of truth' as he reminded and warned 'God's people'. There is no distinction here among high IQ or 'below average basic intelligence'.

God did not give above average IQs to all people. As a matter of fact those with above average IQs are more likely to miss out with God because they have such a gift than those of only average or below average basic intelligence. Man's logical brain does at times get in the way of understanding the Way of God. For this reason the correct Way to proceed is always by faith rather than by knowledge.

You seem to have a blockage against those with higher IQ when there are many people with lower IQ in western and non-western culture who are worshipping other gods. Those with any IQ can have a blockage because they 'suppress the truth in their unrighteousness' (Rom 1:18). No IQ is exempt from that category.

For the individual believer that I meet and when I am asked or impressed by God to do so, I will provide advice according to what I know or believe for that person. For one person my advice may at times differ from advice given to another.

What is your advice based on? From where does that advice come?

No black and white rules that apply to everyone. Everyone needs to, in the way God prescribes for that person, strive to go the God's Way. If a person really seeks first the kingdom of God and His righteous [Matt 6:33], will God mislead him? I think not. Sometimes it may look like it to us, but how well are we able to see what is in everyone else's person's heart?

Did I properly address or answer your question?

I'm sure glad I'm not of your persuasion: 'No black and white rules that apply to everyone'. There most certainly are black and white rules for all people. In your compendium of rules, is it legal
  • to murder,
  • to steal,
  • to lie,
  • give false testimony,
  • to commit adultery,
  • to be a paedophile or an illicit drug dealer, serve other gods and get into God's kingdom,
  • to engage in fraud & extortion;
  • promote terrorism and become a terrorist,
So there are no black and white rules for you, but there definitely are for me.

Did you answer my question? To which question are you referring?

Oz
 
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Marymog

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Is all this really necessary? What we now call the OT was available back then. Should we really make a big deal about what is was called?

Ok. Look, in 2 Cor 3:14 Paul refers to the Torah as "the old testament". I don't know if James wrote before 2 Cor... But its in the ballpark.

2 Corinthians 3:14 KJV
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

So there was an OT back then. Even without this verse its clear that there was some scripture which we now call the OT.
It isn't necessary. As you can see I attempted to clarify what he meant by referencing the Torah. OzSpen the began to question me. He has me confused.
Dear sir,

I try to never assume what someone else means when they make an open ended comment.

FYI....Historically we know that different sects of Jews accepted or had different books in their Testament (what we now call the Old Testament). That is why Jesus responded to Jewish leaders in different ways. His response to them was dependent on what books they accepted/rejected. But I suspect you knew that already?

So to ask what someone means, in this case OzSpen, what books of the Old Testament that James read is in fact a legitimate question and really necessary.

If you have a basic knowledge of your Christian faith it isn't a big deal. If you have in depth knowledge on the colligate level that OzSpen and I have of your Christian faith....it is a big deal.

Respectfully...Mary
 

OzSpen

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Dear sir,

I am simply asking you what you meant by the statement you made to Kepha: Haven't you heard of the Old Testament that was available when James was writing?

This has nothing to do with which Torah my understanding is applied. It has to do with YOUR STATEMENT.

I, Marymog, have not heard of the Old Testament that was available to James when he was writing.

Can you , OzSpen, please tell me what that Old Testament is that YOU have spoken of?

How much clearer can I be???o_O

Respectfully...Mary

Mary,

It was you who asked me in #1362: 'Are you speaking of the Jewish writings (i.e. Torah) that Jesus and the Apostles would have quoted from or read (which eventually we Christians called the Old testament)?'

I asked you for clarification of what you meant by Torah when the Jews had a few different understandings of that collection of books.

Although it seems that NT writers used the Greek translation of the OT (the Septuagint - LXX) and the LXX contained the Apocrypha (deuterocanonical books), no direct quotations from the OT Apocrypha have been found in the NT. See the article by Roger Nicole, New Testament Use of the Old Testament.

You asked, 'I, Marymog, have not heard of the Old Testament that was available to James when he was writing'. Are you serious that you didn't know of the OT Scripture James referred to?

To what was James referring when he stated:

If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11 For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,” also said, “You shall not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker (James 2:9-11 NIV, emphasis added).​

So, where do I find these statements to which James refers?
  • The royal law;
  • Scripture;
  • Convicted by the law as lawbreakers;
  • Become a lawbreaker.
Where 'in Scripture' prior to James' writing do we find:
  • 'Love your neighbor as yourself';
  • 'You shall not commit adultery';
  • 'You shall not murder'.
Oz
 
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amadeus

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Dear sir,

You are completely and utterly wrong my friend. That passage from scripture is black and white however I will agree with you that SOME scripture is not black and white. At no point in that passage does Jesus speak of anything other than material items. He does not infer, imply, suggest it or reveal to his apostles in a later conversation that he meant anything other than material items.

I don't like twisting of scripture. If your post twist scripture, which they do, then I don't like them.

Scripture also says the enemy came and planted weeds among the wheat and that the ignorant and unstable twist scripture to their own destruction. Are you planting weeds or wheat?

IHS...Mary



Who decides which ones are black and white? You or your church leadership? Sounds to me like someone is limiting God. They want to put Him a box and He does not fit.

The OT is full of types and shadows of the reality of God. In the NT we see more of the reality of God, but there are also still many types and shadows.

As to whether I am planting weeds or wheat you will never know if you do not hear from God for yourself. His sheep hear His voice. Are you a sheep or a goat?

"To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers." John 10:3-5

"And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left." Matt 25:32-33
 
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amadeus

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Who decides absolute truth?

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

So Jesus is Truth. Anyone who knows Him absolutely would know absolute truth, but who does? However, if a person has access to Jesus does he not have access to absolute truth? Who has access to Him?
 
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