It is not in the bible.....sola scripture

[OzSpen]

Who decides which ones are black and white? You or your church leadership? Sounds to me like someone is limiting God. They want to put Him a box and He does not fit.

In my understanding, there is only one way to decide black from white. That is by using the absolutes of Scripture. No human being can do it. It's putting God where he said he is:

• 'I am the LORD, the God of all the peoples of the world. Is anything too hard for me?' (Jer 32:27 NLT);
• '19 I also pray that you will understand the incredible greatness of God’s power for us who believe him. This is the same mighty power 20 that raised Christ from the dead and seated him in the place of honor at God’s right hand in the heavenly realms. 21 Now he is far above any ruler or authority or power or leader or anything else—not only in this world but also in the world to come. 22 God has put all things under the authority of Christ and has made him head over all things for the benefit of the church. 23 And the church is his body; it is made full and complete by Christ, who fills all things everywhere with himself (Eph 1:19-23 NLT).

God has left know doubt about who is the ultimate standard for black vs white. You, the millions in the world, and I do not fit the bill - even if filled with the Holy Spirit.

Oz

 

[Mungo]

In my understanding, there is only one way to decide black from white. That is by using the absolutes of Scripture. No human being can do it. It's putting God where he said he is:

• 'I am the LORD, the God of all the peoples of the world. Is anything too hard for me?' (Jer 32:27 NLT);
• '19 I also pray that you will understand the incredible greatness of God’s power for us who believe him. This is the same mighty power 20 that raised Christ from the dead and seated him in the place of honor at God’s right hand in the heavenly realms. 21 Now he is far above any ruler or authority or power or leader or anything else—not only in this world but also in the world to come. 22 God has put all things under the authority of Christ and has made him head over all things for the benefit of the church. 23 And the church is his body; it is made full and complete by Christ, who fills all things everywhere with himself (Eph 1:19-23 NLT).

God has left know doubt about who is the ultimate standard for black vs white. You, the millions in the world, and I do not fit the bill - even if filled with the Holy Spirit.

Oz

Then according to you there is no way of knowing black from white. All we have are personal and fallible opinions.

 

[bbyrd009]

Who decides absolute truth?

ha well either God or the one who stands in the Holy of Holies and proclaims himself God, imo
the rest of us live in shades of grey, right

"will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he setshimself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God. .... the description "who opposeth" standsabsolutely: it is one characteristic of the Man of Sin to be always in opposition, and to have concord with no one."

after all, if you cannot state an unequivocal absolute truth from Scripture, then no one can, so no one should be i guess.
and if you argue that you can, well then there's plenty of others convinced of the same thing,
and there's plenty of people will believe you, too, i guess

but what is presently true will shortly be false, regardless

 

[bbyrd009]

Then according to you there is no way of knowing black from white.

so that you could write it down on paper and make a law for every case, no;
in the moment, no problem. lol well, at least "different story"

 

[tabletalk]

But not on their own.

Right, I agree. So, sola-Scriptura is not really alone. Something like the "rule of faith" (or tradition), and the church, have always been used to agree on the absolute truth. But, the "rule of faith" and the church are not equal to the Scriptures. Scripture stands alone.
(says a fallible person like me)

 

[Mungo]

Right, I agree. So, sola-Scriptura is not really alone. Something like the "rule of faith" (or tradition), and the church, have always been used to agree on the absolute truth. But, the "rule of faith" and the church are not equal to the Scriptures. Scripture stands alone.
(says a fallible person like me)

In what way does scripture "stand alone"?

In the Catholic Church we use the analogy of the three legged stool - Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium. Each leg is equally necessary or the stool falls over.

 

[amadeus]

amadeus,

It is dangerous when any Bible interpreter does not deal with the plain, literal meaning of the text, which allows for symbols, figures of speech such as metaphors, parables, etc.

What is more dangerous is when anyone who serves God goes along his own pathway rather than God's. Using all of these other sources, resources and calling on advisers who know more about some of the specifics can be a good thing, but having done that, or NOT, each person, be he a leader or teacher, or NOT, must still and more importantly hold to the unchanging hand of God. Let us both remember what is written even if we did not or could not read it in the language in which it was first written by a man:

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23

We, each of us must have a Director that is above every human resource or we will fail in the eyes of God no matter what else we do.

So, how do you find the meaning of the Greek, πειρασμός (peirasmos) in the NT to translate it into English? Are you going to rely on the deeper meaning you recommend or will you turn to specialist Greek lexicons and word studies to find the meaning?

As I have said before, I am not against using such resources. It is simply a matter of first things first:

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33

I have a small library [my wife would call it a large library] of books that I use as well as, of course, the Internet, which are available and used at times, but I learned along time ago that if I were to immerse myself into the studies of all of those other books I could not accomplish God's purpose in my life. Many years ago after having read the Bible only a few times, I thought to learn all of those things so well that when I spoke it would always be God speaking through my mouth. I learned the hard way that that will not work. Anyone who really believes that it will is deluded.

My result from those efforts from quitting everything including Bible reading for nearly 10 years. When I had bottomed out God spoke to my heart. In about 2002 I began the long slow journey back holding that same unchanging hand of God. The journey then resumed and although too often I have turn my eyes away from Him, I have never quit repenting and seeking His face.

Give God the glory!

The leaders/preachers of the church should be teaching them this biblical standard: 'Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true' (Acts 17:11 NIV).

Should, is of course the key word in what you are saying. They should do it all better. So should we all, but the reason that we do not is not because we do not study enough, but because we do not lean as heavily on Him as we should.

"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths." Prov 3:5-6

"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." Matt 11:28-30

Any Christian leader worth his or her salt should be teaching all believers (incl. simple believers) and he has to,

'14Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. 15Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth (2 Tim 2:14-15 NIV, emphasis added).​

Yes, worth his salt...

"Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men." Matt 5:13

Each teacher or preacher or other minister truly called by God should be doing it all God's Way according to the called person' own individual gifts, which are NOT the same in each person, are they?

​

Timothy was ministering to the church in Ephesus (2 Tim 1:18; 4:12) when Paul wrote to him. As a leader, Timothy was told that he was to be one 'who correctlly handles the word of truth' as he reminded and warned 'God's people'. There is no distinction here among high IQ or 'below average basic intelligence'.

You seem to have a blockage against those with higher IQ when there are many people with lower IQ in western and non-western culture who are worshipping other gods. Those with any IQ can have a blockage because they 'suppress the truth in their unrighteousness' (Rom 1:18). No IQ is exempt from that category.

Regardless of culture or IQ or education or other personal factors each believer must use what he has, in spite of what he does not have, to accomplish God's purpose for him. The problem too often found in people who are "smart" according men is that they also are "smart" according to themselves. They have not learned how little they really know and how little power they really have when they are all alone or only in the company of other similarly unenlightened men... when it comes to the things of God.

Among men working in secular vocations we of course expect to see the smartest men who have learned to work hard come out on top. Pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps may not be an evil thing, but it is not the way to God no matter how useful it may be even in serving God.

We should all remember these words from Jesus:

"When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him;
And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room.
But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.
For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." Luke 14:8-11

What is your advice based on? From where does that advice come?

How about from the Holy Ghost within me? Isn't that the best answer if it is the truth?

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

I'm sure glad I'm not of your persuasion: 'No black and white rules that apply to everyone'. There most certainly are black and white rules for all people. In your compendium of rules, is it legal

• to murder,
  
• to steal,
• to lie,
  
• give false testimony,
  
• to commit adultery,
  
• to be a paedophile or an illicit drug dealer, serve other gods and get into God's kingdom,
• to engage in fraud & extortion;
• promote terrorism and become a terrorist,

So there are no black and white rules for you, but there definitely are for me.

I have no problem with teaching people rules so long as they do not preclude listening to God when He wants to intervene and overrule what we thought was a hard and fast unbreakable rule. Consider Hosea's situation with regard to what the Apostle Paul wrote here:

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?" II Cor 6:14

Was Hosea not a prophet of God who heard from God? Has God changed? Why was it that Hosea went ahead and married a prostitute? We can follow the black and white rules until God speaks something that seems to conflict with one or more of those unbreakable rules:

"And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common." Acts 10:13-15

Did you answer my question? To which question are you referring?

Oz

My bad, I guess. I just presumed since I was responding that there must have been a question.

 

[amadeus]

In my understanding, there is only one way to decide black from white. That is by using the absolutes of Scripture. No human being can do it. It's putting God where he said he is:

• 'I am the LORD, the God of all the peoples of the world. Is anything too hard for me?' (Jer 32:27 NLT);
• '19 I also pray that you will understand the incredible greatness of God’s power for us who believe him. This is the same mighty power 20 that raised Christ from the dead and seated him in the place of honor at God’s right hand in the heavenly realms. 21 Now he is far above any ruler or authority or power or leader or anything else—not only in this world but also in the world to come. 22 God has put all things under the authority of Christ and has made him head over all things for the benefit of the church. 23 And the church is his body; it is made full and complete by Christ, who fills all things everywhere with himself (Eph 1:19-23 NLT).

God has left know doubt about who is the ultimate standard for black vs white. You, the millions in the world, and I do not fit the bill - even if filled with the Holy Spirit.

Oz

Without the Holy Spirit white may appear to be black and black may appear to be white, but from the apostle Paul we read:

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. " I Cor 13:12
So then it may not be so clear at the moment, but we are in touch with Jesus, can it not be improved even before the end of our course?

"And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.
And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.
After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly." Mark 8:23-25

 

[epostle1]

The BIBLICAL rule of faith is Tradition, Scripture, and the Teaching Authority (Magisterium). They are NOT equal, they are complementary. They all work in harmony, and one is not over the other.

 

[bbyrd009]

In what way does scripture "stand alone"?

by revealing that there is no Absolute Truth, and you need those other two--"men" iow--to manufacture that, right

 

[bbyrd009]

The BIBLICAL rule of faith is Tradition, Scripture, and the Teaching Authority (Magisterium)

The BIBLICAL rule of faith is Tradition, Scripture, and the Teaching Authority (Magisterium) - Google Search

looks like you meant the "Catholic" rule of faith, i guess

They are NOT equal, they are complementary

or imaginary, ya

They all work in harmony

is basically a punchline, as anyone can observe

 

[Marymog]

Who decides which ones are black and white? You or your church leadership? Sounds to me like someone is limiting God. They want to put Him a box and He does not fit.

Dear friend,

If I decide which ones are black and white and I do not consult with the church that makes me a church of one. The Church is to decide if my brother sinned against me or not....not me (Matthew 18:17). According to your theory when you tell your brother he has sinned against you and he disagrees with you then you have no one to settle your difference. I have someone....The Church.

Matthew 18:17 says opposite of what you practice. Since you have set yourself up as the church you are never wrong, never a heretic and never twist scripture. You dear sir have put God in a box and according to your theory my interpretation of scripture is just as valid as yours and just as valid as Mohammad's and just as valid as Joe sitting in his basement reading scripture.

Since I do as scripture tells us to do, which is let the Church decide (Matthew 18:17, Matthew 16:19) which was given its authority by Jesus, I have not put God in a box. The Church, made up of many men who rely on the Holy Spirit and tradition for guidence, is the pillar and foundation of truth...just like scripture says. The Church decides if my brother has sinned against me.....not me.

So to answer your question: The Church decides; not me.

IHS....Mary

 

[Marymog]

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

So Jesus is Truth. Anyone who knows Him absolutely would know absolute truth, but who does? However, if a person has access to Jesus does he not have access to absolute truth? Who has access to Him?

Why is your truth different than my truth since we both have access to Him?

Many men have claimed to know The Truth. All of those men have claimed to be guided by Jesus and or the Holy Spirit. So why do all those men who all claim to have The Truth disagree with each other???

Your theory is not a workable theory.

I believe what scripture says (1 Timothy 3:15). Do you???

I ask you AGAIN: Who decides absolute truth?

It appears your answer (post #1398) is that no one knows the truth....but I don't want to put words in your mouth:)

IHS...Mary

 

[Marymog]

Fallible people decide what is absolute truth.

Hi,

If all men (and us women of course) are fallible then how did we get infallible scripture?

Mary

 

[amadeus]

Dear friend,

If I decide which ones are black and white and I do not consult with the church that makes me a church of one. The Church is to decide if my brother sinned against me or not....not me (Matthew 18:17). According to your theory when you tell your brother he has sinned against you and he disagrees with you then you have no one to settle your difference. I have someone....The Church.

Matthew 18:17 says opposite of what you practice. Since you have set yourself up as the church you are never wrong, never a heretic and never twist scripture. You dear sir have put God in a box and according to your theory my interpretation of scripture is just as valid as yours and just as valid as Mohammad's and just as valid as Joe sitting in his basement reading scripture.

Since I do as scripture tells us to do, which is let the Church decide (Matthew 18:17, Matthew 16:19) which was given its authority by Jesus, I have not put God in a box. The Church, made up of many men who rely on the Holy Spirit and tradition for guidence, is the pillar and foundation of truth...just like scripture says. The Church decides if my brother has sinned against me.....not me.

So to answer your question: The Church decides; not me.

IHS....Mary

Yes, as per your reference we are to tell it to the Church, but we differ I believe on what the Church is. But that is another subject.

 

[tabletalk]

In what way does scripture "stand alone"?

In the Catholic Church we use the analogy of the three legged stool - Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium. Each leg is equally necessary or the stool falls over.

What is more dangerous is when anyone who serves God goes along his own pathway rather than God's. Using all of these other sources, resources and calling on advisers who know more about some of the specifics can be a good thing, but having done that, or NOT, each person, be he a leader or teacher, or NOT, must still and more importantly hold to the unchanging hand of God. Let us both remember what is written even if we did not or could not read it in the language in which it was first written by a man:

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23

We, each of us must have a Director that is above every human resource or we will fail in the eyes of God no matter what else we do.



As I have said before, I am not against using such resources. It is simply a matter of first things first:

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33

I have a small library [my wife would call it a large library] of books that I use as well as, of course, the Internet, which are available and used at times, but I learned along time ago that if I were to immerse myself into the studies of all of those other books I could not accomplish God's purpose in my life. Many years ago after having read the Bible only a few times, I thought to learn all of those things so well that when I spoke it would always be God speaking through my mouth. I learned the hard way that that will not work. Anyone who really believes that it will is deluded.

My result from those efforts from quitting everything including Bible reading for nearly 10 years. When I had bottomed out God spoke to my heart. In about 2002 I began the long slow journey back holding that same unchanging hand of God. The journey then resumed and although too often I have turn my eyes away from Him, I have never quit repenting and seeking His face.

Give God the glory!



Should, is of course the key word in what you are saying. They should do it all better. So should we all, but the reason that we do not is not because we do not study enough, but because we do not lean as heavily on Him as we should.

"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths." Prov 3:5-6

"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." Matt 11:28-30

Yes, worth his salt...

"Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men." Matt 5:13

Each teacher or preacher or other minister truly called by God should be doing it all God's Way according to the called person' own individual gifts, which are NOT the same in each person, are they?

​

Regardless of culture or IQ or education or other personal factors each believer must use what he has, in spite of what he does not have, to accomplish God's purpose for him. The problem too often found in people who are "smart" according men is that they also are "smart" according to themselves. They have not learned how little they really know and how little power they really have when they are all alone or only in the company of other similarly unenlightened men... when it comes to the things of God.

Among men working in secular vocations we of course expect to see the smartest men who have learned to work hard come out on top. Pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps may not be an evil thing, but it is not the way to God no matter how useful it may be even in serving God.

We should all remember these words from Jesus:

"When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him;
And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room.
But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.
For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." Luke 14:8-11



How about from the Holy Ghost within me? Isn't that the best answer if it is the truth?

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26


I have no problem with teaching people rules so long as they do not preclude listening to God when He wants to intervene and overrule what we thought was a hard and fast unbreakable rule. Consider Hosea's situation with regard to what the Apostle Paul wrote here:

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?" II Cor 6:14

Was Hosea not a prophet of God who heard from God? Has God changed? Why was it that Hosea went ahead and married a prostitute? We can follow the black and white rules until God speaks something that seems to conflict with one or more of those unbreakable rules:

"And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common." Acts 10:13-15


My bad, I guess. I just presumed since I was responding that there must have been a question.

You said:
"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?" II Cor 6:14

Was Hosea not a prophet of God who heard from God? Has God changed? Why was it that Hosea went ahead and married a prostitute?"

Maybe she was a believer.

 

[Marymog]

In my understanding, there is only one way to decide black from white. That is by using the absolutes of Scripture. No human being can do it. It's putting God where he said he is:

• 'I am the LORD, the God of all the peoples of the world. Is anything too hard for me?' (Jer 32:27 NLT);
• '19 I also pray that you will understand the incredible greatness of God’s power for us who believe him. This is the same mighty power 20 that raised Christ from the dead and seated him in the place of honor at God’s right hand in the heavenly realms. 21 Now he is far above any ruler or authority or power or leader or anything else—not only in this world but also in the world to come. 22 God has put all things under the authority of Christ and has made him head over all things for the benefit of the church. 23 And the church is his body; it is made full and complete by Christ, who fills all things everywhere with himself (Eph 1:19-23 NLT).

God has left know doubt about who is the ultimate standard for black vs white. You, the millions in the world, and I do not fit the bill - even if filled with the Holy Spirit.

Oz

HI Oz,

In Acts 15 it is written "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us....". Did that abilbity to decide what seems good to the Holy Spirit end when the last Apostle died?

Matthew 18 says whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Did that authority also end when the last apostle died?

IHS...Mary

 

[tabletalk]

Hi,

If all men (and us women of course) are fallible then how did we get infallible scripture?

Mary

By faith, I believe God breathed the Scriptures.

 

[amadeus]

Why is your truth different than my truth since we both have access to Him?

Because of quenching the Holy Spirit that directs us.

Many men have claimed to know The Truth. All of those men have claimed to be guided by Jesus and or the Holy Spirit. So why do all those men who all claim to have The Truth disagree with each other???

Many of them on both sides of different issues have been guided in a measure by the Holy Spirit, but how many times or how often does a person have to quench the Holy Spirit to come up with a wrong answer? So then we have thousands of groups claiming to followers of Christ using the Bible as their basis, but many of their beliefs are contradictory.

Your theory is not a workable theory.

I have no theory. I do have a communications link, but as you have said, I am not alone in that and many others with such a link will disagree with me on many points.

I believe what scripture says (1 Timothy 3:15). Do you???

Yes.

I ask you AGAIN

: Who decides absolute truth?

God!

It appears your answer (post #1398) is that no one knows the truth....but I don't want to put words in your mouth:)

No man knows any part of truth but any part which God has given him.

 

[Marymog]

Yes, as per your reference we are to tell it to the Church, but we differ I believe on what the Church is. But that is another subject.

Hi,

There is no need for it to be another subject. Just a quick answer from you would suffice. I believe you know which church I have chosen:

Which have you chosen?

You have left me with the impression that you believe each person can have their own interpretation of scripture and be right.

Curious Mary