It is obvious to me.

[bbyrd009]

^Imo that was a cheap shot, but I felt I had to give him a like for the bottom, the important one

Why do you continue to say the book of James was written to the grace church? James 1:1 tells us who the book was written to but I see that most do not believe James 1:1. They have an agenda that needs the book to establish a works based religion and hang the necessity of works around the necks of the children of God.

When they do that people will try to do works that are not directed by the Holy Spirit but are doing them to try and insure their salvation.

You just refuse to believe that not all who are born Israel are of Israel, huh.
"12 tribes" is in a language you just are not prepared to Read yet, ok?
No offense meant, but it isn't like "it can be made to say anything" like is often forwarded, by the blind, imo. There is only one, very specific, way to understand that "12" with one eye ok
But first I guess there are no Jew or Gentile in the kingdom and all the other Scripture you apparently can't address? will have to be considered. imo. bye

even two eyes is better than no eyes I guess?

 

[Enoch111]

Why do you continue to say the book of James was written to the grace church? James 1:1 tells us who the book was written to but I see that most do not believe James 1:1.

James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. (James 1:1)

James is addressing this to HEBREW CHRISTIANS: "the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad".

1. Whatever is said to Hebrew Christians is equally applicable to Gentile Christians.

2. The first CHRISTIAN church was the church at Jerusalem.

3. Thousands of Jews were saved after Pentecost (on that day as well as shortly thereafter).

4. These Hebrew Christians were persecuted by the unbelieving Jews.

5. As a result they were scattered abroad, while the apostles remained.

6. James was the primary elder of the church at Jerusalem, writing to these CHRISTIANS who had dispersed from Jerusalem and Judea.

7. The book of James has always been regarded as an integral part of the New Testament (just like Paul's epistle to the Hebrews).

 

[tzcho2]

That is a half-truth. And that is as close to the truth as I've seen you come to.

It's not a "half" truth at all , it is exactly what the Bible scripture says. Claiming salvation is conditional of performing works contradicts the Gospel- period.
Thanks also , since you made this statement towards CoreIssue , though I haven't read many of your posts I'm sure now that I would not agree with any of them since I find CI 's opinions to be based squarely upon scripture.

 

[CoreIssue]

As it seems to you in your opinion...from yourself.

Yet more Gnosticism.

 

[charity]

What is obvious to me is that those that teach a child of God MUST have works to show their faith have hung the statement of James that “faith without works is dead” around the necks of those “IN CHRIST” who believe in Jesus‘ work on the cross.

To these we are just required to keep the law of good works and those works are defined by them with selected verses. Which is better, to be kind to others or to try and get them to see the salvation that Jesus paid for on the cross? Baring fruit for God isn’t a person glorifying in their own works; but glorifying Jesus' work on the cross. We are to witness to faith in Jesus’ work and not our own.

Tell me, which is better, to be kind to others or to help lead them to eternal life? It seems to me that every time a person tries to reach out to God in faith the religious works crowd hangs the requirement of works around their neck.

I am completely aware that a child of God will be lead by the Holy Spirit to do what God wishes for them to do. But that is not what the works crowd wants. They want to determine the works others are to do. Doesn’t matter if those person’s are doing what God wants them to do.

Even though I have shown that James was certainly not writing to those under grace and that he got some things wrong the religious works crowd still cling to their traditions. They will not see that placing their faith in works will not save them and as Paul writes they are under a curse. Why???? Because they trample under foot the “:completed” work of Jesus on the cross.

Heb 10:28-29
28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
NKJV

To me, it seems that, most can tell you about their faith in keeping commandment and picking up their cross of their works but they will not tell about their faith in what Jesus did on the cross. Most who testify that they have faith in Jesus’ work on the cross are even accused, by the works crowd, of not being saved by given them derogatory labels so they can accuse them of not having a true faith.

But to us who know that faith in what Jesus did on the cross is the only way to please God will never say we earn a place with God BECAUSE of our works. Now the works crowd will say that they are doing that too. If they are doing that too then why do they give statements like easy believes?

According to Paul, when a person adds works to grace they are under a curse. I, personally do not claim any works.. Does that mean I do not do any?? Off course not! It means I place no confidence in my works. If I have any God knows it, not me.

But that is okay, I let others talk about how they keep Jesus’ commandment. But when, and if, they look into their hearts they would know they are not. I think God’s judgment on them for boasting in their own works while neglecting to boast in Jesus’ work will not bring a good out come.

But hey, that is just a person’s remarks that have been told that what I believe is totally wrong and is easy believism. So faith in Jesus’ work on the cross is just easy believism. So get out there and do your works.

Hello @H. Richard,

* Don't be discouraged by those who oppose you, take heart.
I would have liked to be able to click the 'like' symbol for your OP, for I am in agreement with you for the most part. What prevented me from doing so is your comment concerning James. However, in your later response you said that it was necessary to understand who James was writing to, and in that I agree, for we can be in no doubt as to whom he wrote:-

'James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.'
(James 1:1)​

* James was an apostle to the circumcision, as Paul was to the Gentile.
* I have seen the degree of opposition you have received in other threads, personal attack which was not honouring to God. Just praise God, and do not retaliate, but rise above the strife of tongues, by obeying the words of Paul to Timothy in 2 Timothy 2:15.

Praise God!

With love to you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[tzcho2]

you are allowed to put your ear wherever you like, ok, personally I would not pay them any attention, but you seem to be consumed by them, why is that HR. Bc they are not going anywhere ok, they are as stuck as you are

see, you are just (constantly) manifesting a position of "under the law" without even realizing it I guess; you would not be preoccupied with the law and what those in the world do if you were not in the world and under the law

fwiw I do genuinely feel for you, but then you are seeking Death More Abundantly and immortality in the Elysian Fields too, right, so you are going to reap what you sow just like everyone else, me included

Works salvation is a false teaching, much like the beliefs you promote.

 

[H. Richard]

Hello @H. Richard,

* Don't be discouraged by those who oppose you, take heart.
I would have liked to be able to click the 'like' symbol for your OP, for I am in agreement with you for the most part. What prevented me from doing so is your comment concerning James. However, in your later response you said that it was necessary to understand who James was writing to, and in that I agree, for we can be in no doubt as to whom he wrote:-

'James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.'
(James 1:1)​

* James was an apostle to the circumcision, as Paul was to the Gentile.
* I have seen the degree of opposition you have received in other threads, personal attack which was not honouring to God. Just praise God, and do not retaliate, but rise above the strife of tongues, by obeying the words of Paul to Timothy in 2 Timothy 2:15.

Praise God!

With love to you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Thanks for your reply. Is is most welcome. Yes, there are those who appose the true gospel just as they opposed Paul's gospel. The religious wanted to kill Paul and I am sure there are those on forums who would do it to others too.

Most do not realize that the Book of James was not written by James the Apostle who was killed. The James that wrote the Book of James was Jesus' brother, not one of the 12.

 

[101G]

Addressing the OP only, not haven read all the replies, but consider this. one do not work in order to get or be saved, one work because they are saved. and it is not you who do the work but he in you who dose the work. scripture, John 14:12 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father". by going to the Father now he shed, or poured out his Spirit.
it is the Spirit that's in us that do the work, we present our bodies as living sacrifice for the work of God. scripture, Romans 12:1 "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service".
allow God to use you in his work of salvation. just as one cannot just walk on a job and work and expect to get paid.. no it don't work that way, one must be hired first.. here/SAVED in order to work. get hired/Saved then one work.

PICJAG.

 

[Episkopos]

Thanks for your reply. Is is most welcome. Yes, there are those who appose the true gospel just as they opposed Paul's gospel. The religious wanted to kill Paul and I am sure there are those on forums who would do it to others too.

Most do not realize that the Book of James was not written by James the Apostle who was killed. The James that wrote the Book of James was Jesus' brother, not one of the 12.

Jesus preached the true gospel. He came to set the captives free. Jesus was at work...and IS at work doing the same task. Setting captives free by the Spirit. Even though Jesus is physically absent, yet He is here in Spirit through His brethren. So the SAME gospel is going forth...among they that are truly His. Of course there are also false teachers who would seek to keep the captives in bondage and make them THINK they have been granted freedom while still in their sins. It's like a jailer going around to the jail cells and telling them that they are free to roam in their cells...that that is somehow freedom. But Jesus came set us free from ALL bondage so we are free to walk in His presence with no jail cells.

The apostles respected James...the overseer of Jerusalem. But you don't. This reveals how off the mark your ideas are. You have fully misunderstood the gospel which is BY grace.

We are not saved FOR grace...but BY grace. Grace is a tool to get us to walk in the kingdom life of the Spirit. The gospel is freedom to be reconciled to God in relationship to Him...through the Spirit.

Again...the Spirit is the means not the gospel. There is no gospel OF the Spirit....neither is there a gospel OF grace.

Rather we are to preach the gospel BY the Spirit and BY grace.

 

[H. Richard]

Jesus preached the true gospel. He came to set the captives free. Jesus was at work...and IS at work doing the same task. Setting captives free by the Spirit. Even though Jesus is physically absent, yet He is here in Spirit through His brethren. So the SAME gospel is going forth...among they that are truly His. Of course there are also false teachers who would seek to keep the captives in bondage and make them THINK they have been granted freedom while still in their sins. It's like a jailer going around to the jail cells and telling them that they are free to roam in their cells...that that is somehow freedom. But Jesus came set us free from ALL bondage so we are free to walk in His presence with no jail cells.

The apostles respected James...the overseer of Jerusalem. But you don't. This reveals how off the mark your ideas are. You have fully misunderstood the gospel which is BY grace.

We are not saved FOR grace...but BY grace. Grace is a tool to get us to walk in the kingdom life of the Spirit. The gospel is freedom to be reconciled to God in relationship to Him...through the Spirit.

Again...the Spirit is the means not the gospel. There is no gospel OF the Spirit....neither is there a gospel OF grace.

Rather we are to preach the gospel BY the Spirit and BY grace.

I really don't think it will make any difference but I believe the gospel that Paul taught.

1 Cor 15:1-4
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you — unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,
NKJV

Paul's gospel --- Jesus died for our sins. His death paid for the sins of the whole world.
Jesus was buried
Jesus was raised from the dead on the third day.

I believe in Paul's gospel. I don't think you have said what gospel you believe in and preach. Yours seem to be a mix of things not include in Paul's gospel.

Religious minded people must have their religion even if they must kill for it.

 

[H. Richard]

Addressing the OP only, not haven read all the replies, but consider this. one do not work in order to get or be saved, one work because they are saved. and it is not you who do the work but he in you who dose the work. scripture, John 14:12 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father". by going to the Father now he shed, or poured out his Spirit.
it is the Spirit that's in us that do the work, we present our bodies as living sacrifice for the work of God. scripture, Romans 12:1 "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service".
allow God to use you in his work of salvation. just as one cannot just walk on a job and work and expect to get paid.. no it don't work that way, one must be hired first.. here/SAVED in order to work. get hired/Saved then one work.

PICJAG.

I agree that the children of God will do good works. But good works are not the ones people decide to do to show their faith and/or earn salvation. Their good works will be brought about by the Spirit leading them to do them, not by them deciding to do what they think is a good work.

 

[Episkopos]

I really don't think it will make any difference but I believe the gospel that Paul taught.

1 Cor 15:1-4
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you — unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,
NKJV

Paul's gospel --- Jesus died for our sins. His death paid for the sins of the whole world.
Jesus was buried
Jesus was raised from the dead on the third day.

I believe in Paul's gospel. I don't think you have said what gospel you believe in and preach. Yours seem to be a mix of things not include in Paul's gospel.

Religious minded people must have their religion even if they must kill for it.

As such you are not a Christ follower but rather a Paul follower....as in....we are of Paul. Carnal of course...and wrong. Paul says so himself.

So when Paul says that we are "all partakers of my grace." (Phil. 1:7) That means that you are under Paul's grace.

 

[H. Richard]

To all those that think the gospel of grace that Paul taught was taught all through the scriptures what do you do with verse 5? Don't say is says to all the 12 just because they were the Apostle to Jesus because that would not be correct with verse 5 which says """IN OTHER AGES""". What most do is twist the words to make them say what they clearly do not say.

Eph 3:3-7
3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already,
4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ),
5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:
6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,
7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.
NKJV

 

[H. Richard]

As such you are not a Christ follower but rather a Paul follower....as in....we are of Paul. Carnal of course...and wrong. Paul says so himself.

So when Paul says that we are "all partakers of my grace." (Phil. 1:7) That means that you are under Paul's grace.

Oh give it up. You really stoop to a low level with this one.

Paul was sent to the world with a message of God's grace by the ascended Jesus. You can't even get the scripture right. It doesn't say ""partaker of MY grace. it says with me OF grace. Just keep on showing your lack of scripture knowledge.

Phil 1:7
7 just as it is right for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart, inasmuch as both in my chains and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel, you all are partakers with me of grace.
NKJV

 

[Enoch111]

... that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel...

This is what was hidden in other ages, not the Gospel. The Church (Jews and Gentiles in one Body) was a mystery revealed to Paul.

While the OT mentions the salvation of the Gentiles, the Jews would not have known about Gentiles being grafted into believing Israel. Even Peter had a very difficult time accepting the fact that the Holy Spirit would be given to the Gentiles. He resisted going to the Gentiles because of that.

 

[Episkopos]

Oh give it up. You really stoop to a low level with this one.

Paul was sent to the world with a message of God's grace by the ascended Jesus. You can't even get the scripture right. It doesn't say ""partaker of MY grace. it says with me OF grace. Just keep on showing your lack of scripture knowledge.

Phil 1:7
7 just as it is right for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart, inasmuch as both in my chains and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel, you all are partakers with me of grace.
NKJV

Phil. 1:7 "Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace."

In Greek there is no..."with me" ...as has been added in. In fact, but for a faulty understanding of the bible and Greek. your whole argument collapses.

Paul was a steward of the gospel BY the grace of God.

There is no gospel of a permissiveness towards sin. There is only a gospel of liberation from sin by new life in the Spirit which is BY grace through faith.

 

[H. Richard]

This is what was hidden in other ages, not the Gospel. The Church (Jews and Gentiles in one Body) was a mystery revealed to Paul.

While the OT mentions the salvation of the Gentiles, the Jews would not have known about Gentiles being grafted into believing Israel. Even Peter had a very difficult time accepting the fact that the Holy Spirit would be given to the Gentiles. He resisted going to the Gentiles because of that.

I see where you did not includ but a small part of my reply to you and I know why. You don't deceive me.

But you think you can deceive others. The gospel that was hidden in God was the gospel of grace that was revealed to Paul by Jesus, where God would save all those who would believe in Jesus' work on the cross and it did not include the law of Moses. Paul's grace does not save anyone. The gospel of GOD"S grace does. But you don't want this gospel to save people but you can't even tell us what you think the gospel of grace is. Paul did but you don't believe him.

Have you not read where it says that if the powers that be would have known that His shed blood would pay for the sins of the whole world they would not have him shed his blood? Come on you who trout your knowledge of Scripture, find it your self.

 

[bbyrd009]

Works salvation is a false teaching, much like the beliefs you promote.

Well, I understand why you say that ok, but tbh I think most of the diff lies in the def of "salvation."
If you believe you might go to heaven and become an immortal after you have died you are a Mithraist (Cult of Sol Invictus), not a Christian. That imo would obv be "death More Abundantly" and not Life, more abundantly right? There is only One Immortal, and you are not Him, No one has ever gone up to heaven...etc.

Now we know that (one should never tell white ppl the truth) even Roman Centurion's daughters might get raised, so I don't mean that how you are likely reading it, and works will also take on a diff quality I guess, but fwiw I do not condemn you for being a Mithraist ok.

There is no judgement for beliefs, that I can find, but there obv is one for works, although imo "works salvation" is more or less an oxymoron, I agree.

"Mithraism..." or "Cult of Sol Invictus and Christianity" as a google search could really splain better than I could I guess, but Constantine did it mostly. Ok have a good one

 

[bbyrd009]

 

[tzcho2]

Well, I understand why you say that ok, but tbh I think most of the diff lies in the def of "salvation."
If you believe you might go to heaven and become an immortal after you have died you are a Mithraist (Cult of Sol Invictus), not a Christian. That imo would obv be "death More Abundantly" and not Life, more abundantly right? There is only One Immortal, and you are not Him, No one has ever gone up to heaven...etc.
Now we know that (one should never tell white ppl the truth) even Roman Centurion's daughters might get raised, so I don't mean that how you are likely reading it, and works will also take on a diff quality I guess, but fwiw I do not condemn you for being a Mithraist ok.
There is no judgement for beliefs, that I can find, but there obv is one for works, although imo "works salvation" is more or less an oxymoron, I agree.
"Mithraism..." or "Cult of Sol Invictus and Christianity" as a google search could really splain better than I could I guess, but Constantine did it mostly. Ok have a good one

Sorry but your beliefs are not biblical. Soon as we humans think we are intellectually or spiritually wise we become fools and have entered self-delusion. Yours or any person's opinion of what definition of salvation is misses the mark & does not save. What matters is what the Bible states about salvation. I see by your comments you seem to believe the bible is a spiritual book which contains spiritual stories, parables & metaphors , some that you seem to think were echoed from other ancient texts is but that is false. You seem to think it is a spiritual path like contained in other spiritual books, but this is mistaken. The spiritual truth is what is Only written in the Bible since only IT is God-breathed-- period. The 66 books of the Bible is the living word of God, sharper then a two-edged sword....and you would be wise to read it as such and stay away from thinking yourself spiritually knowledgeable from reading other man-made writings. Salvation & being born from above does not come through self-enlightenment but it is a Holy intervention, an act of God who gives us His Holy Spirit to indwell us when we belief with Faith alone in Jesus Christ's finished work on Calvary & receive Him as our Lord & Savior.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

Proverbs 26:12
Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.