It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[Spiritual Israelite]

You determined the “symbolism”, then applied it to numbers.

Do you think the word "thousand" is supposed to be taken literally in the following verses...

Psalm 50:10 For every beast of the forest is Mine, And the cattle on a thousand hills.

Deuteronomy 7:9 “Therefore know that the Lord your God, He is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy for a thousand generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments;

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I suppose you could go down that road...but it doesn't make sense that the bride would make her self ready...then jump on a white horse and return to earth with Jesus. Maybe in your mind it works.

It's not talking about literally riding white horses. Good grief. Why do you take symbolism literally? Do you think Jesus will literally slay people with a literal sword coming out of His mouth at that time, too?

Then again you said "The marriage supper does not occur prior to the Revelation 19 return of Jesus."....so, let me ask you...how do you know that and when does it take place?

I already showed you. Revelation 19:7 talks about the wife making herself ready for the marriage. You have the marriage already taking place before that. It obviously will take place after Jesus descends from heaven, not before.

 

[CrowCross]

It's not talking about literally riding white horses. Good grief. Why do you take symbolism literally? Do you think Jesus will literally slay people with a literal sword coming out of His mouth at that time, too?

You still don't get it...EVEN IF Jesus doesn't return on a white horse and it's pure SYMBOLISM as you now ned to suggest....Jesus didn't ascend with the same symbolism. Now you gotta deal with that or come up with something new.

I already showed you. Revelation 19:7 talks about the wife making herself ready for the marriage. You have the marriage already taking place before that. It obviously will take place after Jesus descends from heaven, not before.

Obviously? Why? How do you know? It sounds as if you're speculating. I don't mind if you speculate...just say it. Don't present it as "obvious" factual information.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You still don't get it.

What I get is that you don't have a clue. That much is very clear to me.

..EVEN IF Jesus doesn't return on a white horse and it's pure SYMBOLISM as you now ned to suggest.

I don't just suggest that. It's obvious. It's absolutely ludicrous to take that literally. To be consistent you should believe that He will literally slay people with a literal sword coming out of His mouth as well since that is also described in Revelation 19.

...Jesus didn't ascend with the same symbolism.

LOL. What is this nonsense? If you use this kind of logic to relate scriptures together then you can't relate any two scriptures together and you end up believing in about 17 different future comings of Christ. Goodness sakes. Acts 1:9-11 says He will come from heaven in like manner as He ascended there. You can't think it means that in every possible way. When He left, only a small number of people saw Him. Should we assume that only a small number of people will see Him when He comes back then? Of course not. No, what we should understand from Acts 1:9-11 is that He will come visibly and bodily from heaven since that is the manner in which He ascended to heaven. There's no reason to read anymore into it than that.

Now you gotta deal with that or come up with something new.

LOL. I don't need to deal with nonsense.

Obviously? Why? How do you know? It sounds as if you're speculating. I don't mind if you speculate...just say it. Don't present it as "obvious" factual information.

LOL. What else does the wife make herself ready for in Revelation 19:7 if not the marriage? It says the marriage of the Lamb has come at that point and the wife has made herself ready. Obviously, it's saying the wife will have made herself ready for the marriage at that point. It's very obvious. If you can't understand something as simple as this, I'm not sure what you can understand.

 

[Taken]

You believe in a pre-trib rapture,

Yes.

so you do believe that Jesus will descend from heaven 2 times in the future.

No.

You apparently have a problem with me stating what you believe.

Yes. You speak lies, I did not say.

LOL. Are you just playing games?

No. Not playing the game of you deciding my beliefs.

As anyone else but you can understand, I'm saying that the idea of a pre-trib rapture is only supposed by people like you and can't be proven using scripture.

The Lords Calling TO Him, is to Those He Saved.

2Thes. 1
[11] Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

2Thes 2:
[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

So, it's a supposed pre-trib rapture …

No.

You appear to fail to understand…
Jesus’ coming…
* Is from high heavens TO the lower heavens…clouds.
He stays in the lower heavens calling up to Him His Faithful IN Christ.
* IS then from the lower Heavens TO a Single WHITE Cloud…appearing as The Son of Man… for All to See Him…
and With Him…(unseen by human men), His Angels and His Faithful IN Christ.
* IS then on His White horse, with His Soldiers, battling / defeating Satan and his angels, sending them off the face of the Earth.
* IS then Returned To Earth…to His Kingdom (Abraham’s inherited promised land) and His throne (king Davids everlasting throne God Established for Descendants of the House of David to inherit).
* then IS His One Time Return Accomplished.

 

[Taken]

Do Do you think the word "thousand" is supposed to be taken literally in the following verses...

Psalm 50:10 For every beast of the forest is Mine, And the cattle on a thousand hills.

Deuteronomy 7:9 “Therefore know that the Lord your God, He is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy for a thousand generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments;

What I think… / believe is God can NOT lie…

You want to challenge Gods word…why attempt to solicit me to join in your charade, when I clearly oppose your undermining Gods word.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes.


No.

Yes. You speak lies, I did not say.

You imply that Jesus will come down from heaven 2 more times in the future with your pre-trib rapture belief. Hello? You believe He will descend from heaven for the pre-trib rapture, right? And then turn around and bring the church with Him back to heaven, right? So, there's one time you believev He will descend from heaven. And then you believe He will descend from heaven again years later at His return. Right? So, that's 2 future times that you believe Jesus will descend from heaven. How can that be a lie when that's what you and all pre-tribs believe?

No. Not playing the game of you deciding my beliefs.

The Lords Calling TO Him, is to Those He Saved.

2Thes. 1
[11] Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

2Thes 2:
[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

That will not be pre-trib. That is something you suppose, but is not taught in scripture. So, that's why I call it a supposed pre-trib rapture.

No.

You appear to fail to understand…
Jesus’ coming…
* Is from high heavens TO the lower heavens…clouds.

I don't fail to understand that. When did I say otherwise? He is in the third heaven/paradise now and will descend from their to the first or second heaven ("the air") and that's where we will meet Him.

He stays in the lower heavens calling up to Him His Faithful IN Christ.

Yes, and then He will take vengeance on unbelievers with sudden destruction from which they shall not escape (1 Thess 4:14-5:3, 2 Thess 1:7-10).

* IS then from the lower Heavens TO a Single WHITE Cloud…appearing as The Son of Man… for All to See Him…
and With Him…(unseen by human men), His Angels and His Faithful IN Christ.
* IS then on His White horse, with His Soldiers, battling / defeating Satan and his angels, sending them off the face of the Earth.
* IS then Returned To Earth…to His Kingdom (Abraham’s inherited promised land) and His throne (king Davids everlasting throne God Established for Descendants of the House of David to inherit).
* then IS His One Time Return Accomplished.

That was as clear as mud. You don't believe that when He comes for the supposed pre-trib rapture that He will then take His people to the third heaven/paradise and then He will later descend with them at His return? If not, then you have a belief all to yourself because every other pre-trib I've talked to believes that He will descend from heaven (third heaven), we'll be gathered to Him and then He later will return with the church from heaven.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What I think… / believe is God can NOT lie…

You want to challenge Gods word…why attempt to solicit me to join in your charade, when I clearly oppose your undermining Gods word.

You think God's word containing symbolism would be lying? Goodness sakes. Do you not acknowledge any symbolism in the Bible? How am I undermining God's word by seeing that it contains some symbolism? Are you for real?

 

[Taken]

You imply that Jesus will come down from heaven 2 more times in the future with your pre-trib rapture belief.

I neither implied or said that …

Hello? You believe He will descend from heaven for the pre-trib rapture, right?

Are you Unaware of WHERE Heaven IS… and Where the Lord Is?

And then turn around and bring the church with Him back to heaven, right?

What nonsense. I said no such thing.

So, there's one time you believev He will descend from heaven. And then you believe He will descend from heaven again years later at His return.

Learn about Heaven….

Right? So, that's 2 future times that you believe Jesus will descend from heaven. How can that be a lie when that's what you and all pre-tribs believe?

You are not equipped to speak for me.

That will not be pre-trib. That is something you suppose, but is not taught in scripture. So, that's why I call it a supposed pre-trib rapture.

Some you can not recognize the Rapture in Scripture, I have no expectation you can understand it.

I don't fail to understand that. When did I say otherwise? He is in the third heaven/paradise now and will descend from their to the first or second heaven ("the air") and that's where we will meet Him.

Actually there are 3 Heavens…
And Heaven Above the Heavens, Gods “Estate”…

Now if you think … the lord descending from High Heaven to the lower heavens …
Is One coming…that is nonsense.

His coming begins with His descending movements in heaven.

His actual coming … is an expectation of His return to Earth.

Yes, and then He will take vengeance on unbelievers with sudden destruction from which they shall not escape (1 Thess 4:14-5:3, 2 Thess 1:7-10).

Then? Sitting on a Cloud…and the Vengence is sudden / Quick…

That was as clear as mud.

Well your review is sharp as a marble.

You don't believe that when He comes for the supposed pre-trib rapture that He will then take His people to the third heaven/paradise and then He will later descend with them at His return?

No. Why would that be necessary?
They only need to be lifted up off the face of the Earth…to escape, be delivered from the Tribulations and Wrath UPON the Earth.

Noah was only raised up… and in the clouds about 20’ feet above the mountain peeks.

If not, then you have a belief all to yourself because every other pre-trib I've talked to believes that He will descend from heaven (third heaven), we'll be gathered to Him and then He later will return with the church from heaven.

Well I do not, read, study, ask God for His Understanding for Other people… so can’t say what everyone else says or believes.

I believe He Descends from the Heaven Above the (3 ) Heavens to the Lowest Heaven (1) clouds Calls up His Faithful IN Christ…
And there they IN Christ Remain With the Lord …and then they All with The Lords Angels Descend to A White Cloud…

Then After, war battle between holy and demonic Angels…
And demonic Angels removed from Heaven and Earth access…

The Lord and His Faithful IN Christ “return to Earth” … To Abraham’s promised land.

At no time is … some descending, ever say some kind of returning and re-descending said or implied.
… nor have I ever heard that before, but from you… which I do not believe.

 

[Taken]

You think God's word containing symbolism would be lying?

I think it honorable to trust Gods word as it stands.

Goodness sakes. Do you not acknowledge any symbolism in the Bible? How am I undermining God's word by seeing that it contains some symbolism? Are you for real?

You decide at will the meaning of Gods Word, and seem befuddled anyone would dare to disagree with you.

 

[WPM]

It is good news you exclude yourself from pre-Trib Rapture.

I will be taught up when He comes. But the Pretrib rapture is a myth.

 

[WPM]

You still don't get it...EVEN IF Jesus doesn't return on a white horse and it's pure SYMBOLISM as you now ned to suggest....Jesus didn't ascend with the same symbolism. Now you gotta deal with that or come up with something new.

Obviously? Why? How do you know? It sounds as if you're speculating. I don't mind if you speculate...just say it. Don't present it as "obvious" factual information.

Can you not address any of the multiple contradictions in your position? Do you have any alternative to avoidance?

 

[Wick Stick]

In brief.
Lunar calendar…
New moon cycles vary.
Length of night and daylight varies.
Thus Length of days vary.

Gen 1:
[5] And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Time, “lengths” are assigned “numbers” to represent an amount….and “named” for reference.

If you have an interest in how Time is calculated and by whom, you should research and learn.

If you want to understand the Biblical calendar, hit up @dak

I'm not sure it's worth the time, but he's got the knowledge

 

[WPM]

Asking a person if they are saved, is insulting to you.

That’s funny…since pretty much Every Church not only Asks, but wants to see a verified copy of proof of Salvation…
BEFORE they will allow a person to Officially JOIN their Church.

Do you think you are this forum's pastor? LOL.

 

[WPM]

In your ignorance.

Where is your catching away in the book of Revelation before a tribulation period?

 

[WPM]

I never said I had 22 conclusion and 25 pre verses. I said I had a total of about 25 that speaks of both. Feel free to count them.
Pre-trib...
John 14:1-3
Rom 8:19
1 Cor 1:7-8
1 Cor 15:51-53
1 Cor 16:22
Phil 3:20-21
Phil 4:5
Col 3:4
1 Thes 1:10
1 Thes 2:19
1 Thes 4:13`
1 Thes 5:9
1 Thes 5:23

Post trib..
2 Thes 2:3
1 Tim 6:1
2 Tim 4:1
2 Tim 4:8
Titus 2:13
Heb 9:28
James 5:7-9
1 Peter 1:7
1 Peter 5:4
1 John 2:28-3:2
Jude 21
Rev 2:25
Rev 3:10

1. Show me where Jesus left on a white horse in 2 Thessalonians 2:3? If you can't then you must retract.
2. Show me where Jesus left on a white horse in 1 Timothy 6:1? If you can't then you must retract.
3. Show me where Jesus left on a white horse in 2 Timothy 4:1? If you can't then you must retract.
4. Show me where Jesus left on a white horse in 2 Timothy 4:8? If you can't then you must retract.
5. Show me where Jesus left on a white horse in Titus 2:13? If you can't then you must retract.
6. Show me where Jesus left on a white horse in Hebrews 9:28? If you can't then you must retract.
7. Show me where Jesus left on a white horse in James 5:7-9? If you can't then you must retract.
8. Show me where Jesus left on a white horse in 1 Peter 1:7? If you can't then you must retract.
9. Show me where Jesus left on a white horse in 1 Peter 5:4? If you can't then you must retract.
10. Show me where Jesus left on a white horse in 1 John 2:28-3:2? If you can't then you must retract.
11. Show me where Jesus left on a white horse in Jude 21? If you can't then you must retract.
12. Show me where Jesus left on a white horse in Revelation 2:25? If you can't then you must retract.
13. Show me where Jesus left on a white horse in Revelation 3:10? If you can't then you must retract.

 

[Taken]

If you want to understand the Biblical calendar, hit up @dak

I'm not sure it's worth the time, but he's got the knowledge

Thanks. It’s a lunar calendar. Already am familiar.

 

[Taken]

Do you think you are this forum's pastor? LOL.

Knowing the rules and requirements for having proof of A Baptism, to join a church, is for the people to know, and has nothing to do with being the pastor.

 

[Taken]

Where is your catching away in the book of Revelation before a tribulation period?

Do you search in your refrigerator to find your shoes?

A prudent person wouldn’t, no more than they would wonder (and ask lol) where the Rapture is in the book of Revelations.

 

[WPM]

Do you search in your refrigerator to find your shoes?

A prudent person wouldn’t, no more than they would wonder (and ask lol) where the Rapture is in the book of Revelations.

First of all, it is not the book of "Revelations" it is the book of "Revelation."

Secondly, your acknowledging that there is no mention of the catching away in the book of Revelation before a tribulation period is testimony that Pretrib is extra-biblical and confirms the Postrib thesis. That is why i say Pretrib is dead. It's promoters admit that there is no Scripture that teaches its doctrine. Pretribbers are incapable of showing a coming of the Lord followed by a tribulation followed by a third coming in God's Book. That is because it does not in the Bible.