It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[WPM]

I pretty much ignored this post. It's been addressed and not avoided...as you claimed... If you would like you can read the replies if you go back in time in this thread.

Then you post...."Hello! You hung on your gallows.".....You're warped my friend...warped.
Judging from your post....fruit....I have to wonder if you're really a christian and not a troll. I'm leaning towards troll.

1. Show me where Jesus left on a white horse in 2 Thessalonians 2:3? If you can't then you must retract.
2. Show me where Jesus left on a white horse in 1 Timothy 6:1? If you can't then you must retract.
3. Show me where Jesus left on a white horse in 2 Timothy 4:1? If you can't then you must retract.
4. Show me where Jesus left on a white horse in 2 Timothy 4:8? If you can't then you must retract.
5. Show me where Jesus left on a white horse in Titus 2:13? If you can't then you must retract.
6. Show me where Jesus left on a white horse in Hebrews 9:28? If you can't then you must retract.
7. Show me where Jesus left on a white horse in James 5:7-9? If you can't then you must retract.
8. Show me where Jesus left on a white horse in 1 Peter 1:7? If you can't then you must retract.
9. Show me where Jesus left on a white horse in 1 Peter 5:4? If you can't then you must retract.
10. Show me where Jesus left on a white horse in 1 John 2:28-3:2? If you can't then you must retract.
11. Show me where Jesus left on a white horse in Jude 21? If you can't then you must retract.
12. Show me where Jesus left on a white horse in Revelation 2:25? If you can't then you must retract.
13. Show me where Jesus left on a white horse in Revelation 3:10? If you can't then you must retract.

 

[CrowCross]

You can also type in AVOIDANCE and member name WPM and you get another 10 pages of avoidance claims. They only keep 10 pages on each search term so no telling how many claims he has made. This is all he has as he is scripturally illiterate.

I suspect about half his posts are claims that everyone is avoiding him. LOL.

Total waste of time.

I've done searches like that, found many pages loaded with their buzzwords.

I've learned when some one keeps accusing you and others of something it almost always turns out they're the one who really is doing it.

 

[WPM]

I've done searches like that, found many pages loaded with their buzzwords.

I've learned when some one keeps accusing you and others of something it almost always turns out they're the one who really is doing it.

More AVOIDANCE. This is the Pretrib MO. If you would actually spend your time searching the Word of God for what it really teaches. then you would be better served.

 

[CrowCross]

The simple questions

Where is your catching away in the book of Revelation before a tribulation period?

Why would John have to have written about a pre-trib rapture in Revelation to make it true or not true?

But just for fun...

Revelation 4:1... "After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, 'Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.'"

Considering you believe all of Revelation is pure symbolism....and you've cracked the code....the symbolism of "come up here" has been described to me by people like you as a "type" or shadow of the church being "caught up" just before chapter 6 unfolds.

 

[WPM]

I was brought up Pretrib/Premil when I was young. As I grew, I started to question many of its main tenets because I could find no clear scriptural warrant for all its core claims. As I reached out to ask the simple questions: I found a defensiveness, a sheepishness, an avoidance, and even a hostility for daring to question the doctrine from the occasional Pretribber - in real life. This created many red flags.

I have been engaging online with Pretribbers since 2000. I even operated on RaptureReady until they banned all Posttribbers in one foul swoop- as they were demolishing the Pretrib argument, left right and center. My findings have been pretty consistent across the boards.

The sad thing about debating with Pretribbers is that they refuse to acknowledge the obvious: they do not have one single proof text to support their belief of a rapture of the church, followed by 7 years tribulation (or any trib), followed by a third coming. It is a man-made invention. Instead of admitting that they have been misled, many try to justify their extra-biblical error. When that is called out, as it has been on this thread, most online Pretribbers become frustrated, agitated, and evasive. They normally resort to ad-hominem, and then run for the exit.

Follow every discussion and you will see evidence of that.

1. They cannot show their doctrine in God's Book. They have no proof-texts.
2. They dodge the Posttrib arguments.
3. They cannot answer simple basic questions.
4. Most cannot engage in civil discussion in regard to their beliefs. There is much ad hominem in their posts. They misrepresent the character of Posttribs, because they call out their beliefs. Some are particularly vicious.

This only serves to reinforce the Posttrib thesis (and the Op).

Occasionally, Pretribs acknowledge what they have been taught is not in the Bible. I put together some of these clear admissions. This alone should be a reason for them to abandon their error. Many do over the years; the stubborn refuse.

** I've had a couple of new admissions recently.

The simple questions

Where is your catching away in the book of Revelation before a tribulation period?

In your ignorance.

There IS NO Rapture IN Revelations as you have repeatedly asked and been told There IS NO Rapture IN Revelations…

So why believe that?

There IS NO Rapture IN Revelations as you have repeatedly asked and been told There IS NO Rapture IN Revelations…

Show me the rapture of the Church in the rest of Scripture?

Rest of Scripture?
There is no more rest

Where is the rapture "for believers" in Scripture?

Doesn’t exist.

**Spiritual Israelite asked:

You believe He will descend from heaven for the pre-trib rapture, right?

No.

**Spiritual Israelite asked:

And then turn around and bring the church with Him back to heaven, right?

No.

Where is your 7 year trib or any lengthy trib in 1 Thess 4 after the catching away? In 1 Thess 4 there is no mention of any period of tribulation.

So?

Where is the Son of man three days and three nights in the heart of the earth in 1 Thes 4?

So, why believe that?

Where does the Bible teach a 7 year tribulation after the coming of Christ?

The bible doesn't outright say...."the rapture will be followed by a 7 year tribulation. The bible also doesn't say outright there is a trinity consisting of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Daniel 9:20-27 speaks of the seven year tribulation. Perhaps you tend to read it differently and do the math differently than most people.

1. Where is the rapture of the Church mentioned in Daniel 9?
2. Where is a seven-year tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
3. Where is a third coming mentioned in Daniel 9?

Where is Adams fall mentioned in Daniel 9?

Nobody claims it is. But Pretribs claim Daniel 9 as proof of Pretrib, even though it makes no mention of it.

So why believe that?

This sums up Pretrib. It is ridiculous and nonsensical.

Show me the rapture of the Church in the rest of Scripture?

Doesn’t exist.

Where is the Pretrib 3rd coming in Scripture?

What a dunce. There is no third coming.
Nor have I claimed there was.
So go take your dumb question to whomever made that dumb claim!

So why believe it?

Pretribs are incapable of showing two future comings of Jesus anywhere in God's holy Book with a 7 yr trib (or any trib) in between. This whole theory is a man-made invention that Pretribs are incapable of biblically proving. It should be rejected by all sound Bible students.

 

[CrowCross]

I was brought up Pretrib/Premil when I was young. As I grew, I started to question many of its main tenets because I could find no clear scriptural warrant for all its core claims. As I reached out to ask the simple questions: I found a defensiveness, a sheepishness, an avoidance, and even a hostility for daring to question the doctrine from the occasional Pretribber - in real life. This created many red flags.

I have been engaging online with Pretribbers since 2000. I even operated on RaptureReady until they banned all Posttribbers in one foul swoop- as they were demolishing the Pretrib argument, left right and center. My findings have been pretty consistent across the boards.

The sad thing about debating with Pretribbers is that they refuse to acknowledge the obvious: they do not have one single proof text to support their belief of a rapture of the church, followed by 7 years tribulation (or any trib), followed by a third coming. It is a man-made invention. Instead of admitting that they have been misled, many try to justify their extra-biblical error. When that is called out, as it has been on this thread, most online Pretribbers become frustrated, agitated, and evasive. They normally resort to ad-hominem, and then run for the exit.

Follow every discussion and you will see evidence of that.

1. They cannot show their doctrine in God's Book. They have no proof-texts.
2. They dodge the Posttrib arguments.
3. They cannot answer simple basic questions.
4. Most cannot engage in civil discussion in regard to their beliefs. There is much ad hominem in their posts. They misrepresent the character of Posttribs, because they call out their beliefs. Some are particularly vicious.

This only serves to reinforce the Posttrib thesis (and the Op).

Occasionally, Pretribs acknowledge what they have been taught is not in the Bible. I put together some of these clear admissions. This alone should be a reason for them to abandon their error. Many do over the years; the stubborn refuse.

** I've had a couple of new admissions recently.

The simple questions

Where is your catching away in the book of Revelation before a tribulation period?





So why believe that?



Show me the rapture of the Church in the rest of Scripture?



Where is the rapture "for believers" in Scripture?



**Spiritual Israelite asked:

You believe He will descend from heaven for the pre-trib rapture, right?



**Spiritual Israelite asked:

And then turn around and bring the church with Him back to heaven, right?



Where is your 7 year trib or any lengthy trib in 1 Thess 4 after the catching away? In 1 Thess 4 there is no mention of any period of tribulation.





So, why believe that?

Where does the Bible teach a 7 year tribulation after the coming of Christ?

1. Where is the rapture of the Church mentioned in Daniel 9?
2. Where is a seven-year tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
3. Where is a third coming mentioned in Daniel 9?

Nobody claims it is. But Pretribs claim Daniel 9 as proof of Pretrib, even though it makes no mention of it.

So why believe that?

This sums up Pretrib. It is ridiculous and nonsensical.

Show me the rapture of the Church in the rest of Scripture?



Where is the Pretrib 3rd coming in Scripture?



So why believe it?

Pretribs are incapable of showing two future comings of Jesus anywhere in God's holy Book with a 7 yr trib (or any trib) in between. This whole theory is a man-made invention that Pretribs are incapable of biblically proving. It should be rejected by all sound Bible students.

On this forum certain post-trip and one who accepts AMillennialism asked for where the bible speaks of a Pre-tribulation rapture.

Here is my response.

The bible doesn't outright say...."the rapture will be followed by a 7 year tribulation. The bible also doesn't say outright there is a trinity consisting of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. But, if you connect the dots a Christian can understand the basic principles of the Godhead.

When the dots surround the rapture of the church are connected the pre-trib rapture becomes obvious.

For example I have shown you the bible presents Jesus as returning on a white horse in Rev 19 and another return where Jesus isn't riding a white horse. I've even presented you with depictions of the event. No white horse at the rapture while defections show a white horse at the Rev 19 return. That's one dot.

I've presented you with a social economic picture mentioned by Christ Jesus that speaks of His return and describes it like the days of Noah and not......which don't align with the social economic days of the end of the tribulation. Another dot to connect.

You have been presented several verses that show Christians....the bride of Christ... are not destined for wrath or the trials of the 7 year tribulation. Another dot to connect.

You have been shown the 7 year tribulation is a judgement for the people of the earth...and should understand Jesus already paid the price for that Judgement concerning Christians on the cross 2,000 years ago.....another dot to connect.

Another dot to connect would be the many mansions (dwelling places) in heaven that Jesus is currently building and the promise of His return to take us there. This fits in with the Jewish engagement and wedding of the times of Christ.

I have shown you another dot with the 2 Thes 2 mention of the gathering and removal of the restrainer and departure that happens prior to the 7 year tribulation. One more dot to connect.

You have been shown that the Church isn't mentioned by name after after chapter 4 of Revelations (19 times prior to chapter 5) and then not again to chapter 20. ....this is another dot.

There's more dots to connect that are buried deeper in scripture that I won't mention.

Dot + dot + dot + dot + dot + dot + dot = a pre-trib rapture. All you need to do is connect them.

Where are your dots to connect that show a single return of Jesus at the end of the tribulation?

 

[WPM]

On this forum certain post-trip and one who accepts AMillennialism asked for where the bible speaks of a Pre-tribulation rapture.

Here is my response.

I have already refuted this and you have already avoided it, as you do.

The bible doesn't outright say...."the rapture will be followed by a 7 year tribulation. The bible also doesn't say outright there is a trinity consisting of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. But, if you connect the dots a christian can understand the basic principles of the Godhead.

When the dots surround the rapture of the church are connected the pre-trib rapture becomes obvious.

You avoided my earlier rebuttal because it totally demolished your thesis. You then ran and started another thread. What are you scared of?

Of course "the bible doesn't outright say....'the rapture will be followed by a 7 year tribulation'." That is because it is not there. You therefore argue from silence. It is a man-made Jesuit theory that is foisted on God's Book. There is nothing you can do about that apart from devise silly contradictory arguments that do not hold up to biblical scrutiny. And, contrary to what you argue, the Trinity is taught throughout the New Testament.

I've presented you with a social economic picture mentioned by Christ Jesus that speaks of His return and describes it like the days of Noah and not......which don't align with the social economic days of the end of the tribulation. Another dot to connect.

Normal life continues on right up until Christ comes. They are eating, drinking and marrying as usual, they are claiming "peace and safety," then utter destruction strikes them unexpectedly. As in the time of the flood, all the unbelievers are destroyed.

Normality right up until Jesus comes?

There is no space for your 7 year tribulation period and 2 future comings of Jesus. There is no space for some future millennium. All those that are left behind are destroyed. All the wicked are dead. All the mortals are dead. All the saints are glorified and the earth is glorified. We're now into the eternal state.

Jesus said in Luke 17:24-34: “For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.”

We note three particular characteristics of this day, which will be repeated at the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. (1) The wicked lived as if there was no judgement coming, verse 38 says, “they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage.” (2) The wicked were caught unexpected, verse 39 says, they “knew not until the flood came.” And finally, (3) the wicked were ALL destroyed, verse 39 says, “the flood came, and took them all away.”

The days before the coming of Christ will see the wicked at ease living in pleasure, sin and carelessness, with no thought of eternity. The everyday occurrences of life (like eating, drinking and marriage) will continue as normal right up until Jesus comes. Christ's coming is going to catch the wicked unexpectedly. His arrival will surprise only those who are not prepared for it. The wrath of God is sudden and totally destructive. No one survives as this passage tells us.

I Thessalonians 5:2-7 the enormity of this climactic event: “the day of the Lord will come (or appear or arrive) as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

The peace and safety occurs just before Jesus comes at His one final future coming. Any way, if the day of the Lord in 1 Thessalonians 5:3 relates to a third coming of Christ, as some Pretribbers argue, and if they relate this to the event of Revelation 19, which they say is the end of a great 7 years tribulation, how can the wicked be crying “peace and safety”? Surely, according to Pretrib, this is a period of the wrath of God being poured out on all those left behind according to Pretrib theology?

If the day of the Lord 1 Thessalonians 5:3 relates to a third coming, as most Pretribbers argue, and they relate this to the event of Revelation 19, then why is this describing the wicked, who are experiencing the 7 years tribulation, as declaring “Peace and safety”? Surely this is a period of the wrath of God being poured out on all those left behind according to Pretrib theology?

Jesus said in Luke 17:24-34 they will 'eat, drink, and be given in marriage' up until the day that Jesus comes. This is telling us that life will continue as normal right up until Jesus' return. Christ's coming is going to catch the wicked unexpectedly. His arrival will surprise only those who are not prepared for it. The wrath of God is sudden and totally destructive. No one survives as this passage tells us.

 

[WPM]

For example I have shown you the bible presents Jesus as returning on a white horse in Rev 19 and another return where Jesus isn't riding a white horse. I've even presented you with depictions of the event. No white horse at the rapture while defections show a white horse at the Rev 19 return. That's one dot.

White horse coming of Christ

Revelation is full of unique and obscure symbolism that is found nowhere else in the Bible. That is because apocalyptic language is highly figurative and it depicts spiritual realities in the past present or future. You claim to have 22 references to a third coming of Jesus, yet you have not been able to show us one that mentions a white horse. That totally negates your whole argument. That is pretty common in Pretrib. The gallows they build to hang Postrib on is what they normally end up hanging on.

You hung on your own gallows above by failing to show us any corroboration for your claim of biblical support from other scriptural texts for a 3rd white horse coming of Christ and the saints, even though you chided Postribbers for not having the same and claiming you had 22 examples. More noise, zero substance and sheer hypocrisy and duplicity.

Every Pretrib argument is self-defeating.

You have been presented several verses that show Christians....the bride of Christ... are not destined for wrath or the trials of the 7 year tribulation. Another dot to connect.

You have been shown the 7 year tribulation is a judgement for the people of the earth...and should understand Jesus already paid the price for that Judgement concerning Christians on the cross 2,000 years ago.....another dot to connect.

The wrath of God on the righteous?

Pretribbers argue that 7 year trib (or whatever length trib) equates to the wrath of God. So, if your 7 year trib equates to the wrath of God then you have believers being subject to the wrath of God. There are obviously redeemed during the tribulation period, so, if the tribulation period is the wrath of God, you are saying that the wrath of God is upon the righteous. Really???

Praying to His Father for His followers He petitioned: “I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep [Gr. tēreō] them from [Gr. ek] the evil.”

Christ does not ask the Father to ‘take them out’ of the world with its existing tribulation, suffering and inherent evil, as the Pretrib argues, rather the opposite, but that by the power of His Spirit, He would “keep them from” the surrounding evil.

The wrath of God is not something believers experience because they are under God’s blessing and protection. God preserves His people. The shepherd is invested in His sheep.

Where Pretribbers err majorly on this subject is when they automatically equate “wrath” with “tribulation” (and specifically their theory of a 7-year tribulation following a rapture of the Church). This is a glaring theological error. It is a faulty premise. If this was so then there are many contradictions in Scripture that conflict with this theory. Sadly, they construct a whole school of thought on this flawed foundation.

All through history the righteous have endured persecution, suffering, tribulation and martyrdom for the faith. So why do we need a rapture when things simply continue on the same – with maybe a bit more intensity? The tribulation you describe is more or less how things are today. Could they not correlate? In your reasoning: the tribulation = the wrath of God. What I am saying is this doesn't add up. There are countless saints in the tribulation so it couldn't be the wrath of God on all mankind. Why can't God simply preserve them through the tribulation?

God preserves His people in the midst of trial. Look at Israel in Egypt. Look at Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego in the fire. Look at Daniel in the den, etc, etc. The wrath of God was never poured upon Isaiah or Jeremiah. I don't know where you got that from. I note that you didn't try to back up these claims with Scripture. The righteous have never been the recipients of wrath but rather blessing. What type of God do you think He is? Being protected when judgment is poured out on a land is different. God has always preserved His people. Even when the plagues hit Israel God preserved them. It is the same today, God preserves the elect in the midst of tribulation, however He never pours wrath upon them.

You have been shown that the Church isn't mentioned by name after after chapter 4 of Revelations (19 times prior to chapter 5) and then not again to chapter 20. ....this is another dot.

And? What does that prove? The word "Church" ecclesia is also not found anywhere in the New Testament books of Mark, Luke, John, 2 Timothy, Titus, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John and Jude, yet the Church is undoubtedly the recipient of these inspired gospels and epistles and is continually referred to under many varying descriptions throughout them. Like the whole book of Revelation, these books use varying descriptions of the Church of Jesus Christ such as “saints,” “elect,” “redeemed,” “brethren” and “servants.”

Moreover, the word ‘Church’ is also not used in relation to the overall body of Christ in Romans, 2 Corinthians, 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians, Philemon and I Peter, but is only used in the context of the local visible gathering of God’s people, a number that quite often included professors and false-professors alike. However, the true Church – the body of Christ – relates solely to Christ’s blood-bought alone.

Notably, in the other New Testament books that do use the word “Church” in relation to the whole body of Christ, we find only one reference in Galatians, Philippians and James and only two verses in Matthew, Colossians and Hebrews. In the remaining books we have no mention of the Church after Acts 20:28, 1 Corinthians 15:9, Ephesians 5:32, 1 Timothy 5:16 and 3 John 1:10. Do all these particular passages reveal the actual demarcation line between the so-called Gospel age and the supposed Church-free Great Tribulation period?

Absence of any mention of "the Church"?

Using your reasoning, where is a record of the "Church" being raptured? It is not mentioned in Revelation 4. It must not be raptured according to your reasoning. You claim the "Church" is in heaven during your invented 7-year tribulation. There are multiple references to heaven between Revelation 4 and Revelation 19, but, there is no mention of the "Church." So, according to your reasoning it is on earth and it is not in heaven. Where is it? Please answer. There is no mention of the "Church" in Revelation 19 - your third coming (the white Horse coming that you are obsessed with). According to your reasoning, that is proof that the "Church" is not part of that event.
non ment

I will give you 15 solid reason why this reasoning is ridiculous and should be swiftly rejected. I will then explain these points.

(1) The word “Church,” as in the elect redeemed (born again) Church, is not mentioned anywhere in Revelation. There are only references to the local churches (which includes saved and unsaved) in Asia Minor in the last book in the Bible.
(2) The whole book of Revelation was written to local churches in Asia Minor 2,000 years ago for the expressed purpose of encouraging them in their hour of trial.
(3) Words, terms, titles and descriptions that are repeatedly used elsewhere in the New Testament to describe the Church of Jesus Christ are used regularly in Revelation 4 to 19 to describe the true Church of Jesus Christ.
(4) The apostate “churches” and their phony believers miss the rapture and enter this supposed 7 year tribulation, according to Pretrib – but the non-mention of the apostate “churches” must prove they are not on earth either. Where have they gone to?
(5) The word “Church” is not found in Revelation 4 in the Pretrib rapture
(6) The word “Church” is not found in the heavenly passages between Revelation 4 and 19. Using Pretrib logic, then they must not be in heaven either.
(7) The word “Church” is not found in Revelation 19 for the Pretrib 3rd Coming. So, they cannot be part of that supposed event.
(8) The word “Church” not found in Revelation 20 in the millennium. They cannot therefore be part of that period of time.
(9) The word ‘“Church” not found in Revelation 21 in the eternal state. They cannot therefore be part of the eternal state.
(10) The word ‘“Church” not found in many places throughout the New Testament.
(11) The word ‘“Church” is not found in all the popular Pretrib proof texts.
(12) What about the absence of the word “Jew” and “Hebrew” from Revelation 4-19, and the absence of the word “Israel” after Revelation 7.
(13) What about the non-mention of the popular Pretrib term ‘tribulation saints’ in Revelation 4-19?
(14) Whilst “the Church” has been caught up at the coming of Christ, even Pretrib teaches that local churches continue to exist after the rapture! Why are these churches not mentioned?
(15) Does the strange silence of the word “Christian” in Revelation 1-3 not prove Christians are not present or in view?

 

[WPM]

Another dot to connect would be the many mansions (dwelling places) in heaven that Jesus is currently building and the promise of His return to take us there. This fits in with the Jewish engagement and wedding of the times of Christ.

I have shown you another dot with the 2 Thes 2 mention of the gathering and removal of the restrainer and departure that happens prior to the 7 year tribulation. One more dot to connect.

A Jewish Wedding?

This is one the biggest Pretrib scams that they have invented to deceive the deluded.

Does it take 7 yrs for a Jewish Wedding to be consummated? Of course not. This is another Pretrib invention that has no connection to reality or God's infallible Word. No scripture passage anywhere in the Bible compares a Pretrib rapture coming of the Lord to a 7 year or 7 day supposed Jewish Wedding tradition. When Christ is united with His bride; it will not be for a 7-day or 7-year consummation; it will be for eternity!

If you want to know when the marriage occurs; you must go to the end of the tribulation in Revelation chapter 19 when Jesus returns to the earth as King of kings, and Lord of lords. That is when Scripture teaches the marriage will occur.

Matthew 26:27-29 tells us what happens straight after the great climactic coming of Christ at the consummation: “And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.”

At the end of a Jewish wedding the groom takes a plain gold ring and places it on the finger of the bride, and states: "Behold you are sanctified (betrothed) to me with this ring, according to the Law of Moses and Israel." This is immediately followed by the sheva brachos, or seven blessings. These blessings are recited over a full cup of wine. The couple then share in drinking the cup of wine, and the groom breaks a glass by stamping on it.

Jesus equally informed His disciples that He would not share in the cup of wine with them again until the arrival of His kingdom. If we take the Jewish wedding as an example, this precludes any marriage in heaven during the tribulation.

Postribber Tony Warren argues in an article on this issue (Jewish Wedding Customs & the Rapture): “If pretribulationists are right, we would expect the wedding and the feast to commence at the beginning of the tribulation, not after the tribulation as Revelation 19 plainly indicates. If Jesus was referring to heaven as the seven years in the “Chuppah” in John 14:1-3, the bride should have “made herself ready” before the pretribulation rapture (around Rev. 4). And the “marriage of the Lamb” should have occurred at the beginning of the tribulation, and not at its extreme end. The pretribulation scenario has Jesus being intimate with the Bride in the “Chuppah” for seven years before Revelation 19 indicates the wedding occurs!”

Dr. Robert Gundry contends. "If a purported pretrib coming to fetch the church to heaven is supposed to reflect the ancient Semitic custom of a groom's fetching the bride to his home, what is Jesus' taking the church with Him back to earth right after the marriage supper, and for a thousand years, supposed to reflect? An ancient Semitic custom of the groom's taking his bride back to her home to live with her there for a long time? The pretrib reasoning gets itself into a pickle by injecting a marriage custom that isn't even mentioned in the biblical text at hand, and then giving that custom argumentative weight of an allegorical sort but not carrying out the allegory consistently. In fact, our ignorance of ancient Semitic marriage customs exceeds our knowledge. And what knowledge we do have shows considerable variation in these customs."

There's more dots to connect that are buried deeper in scripture that I won't mention.

Dot + dot + dot + dot + dot + dot + dot = a pre-trib rapture. All you need to do is connect them.

Where are your dots to connect that show a single return of Jesus at the end of the tribulation?

Conclusion

Your whole reasoning is built upon sand. That is why it cannot stand scrutiny.

1+1+1+1+1 = 5 not 11111.

 

[WPM]

Where are your dots to connect that show a single return of Jesus at the end of the tribulation?

The Greek word parousia appears 24 times in the New Testament. It is rendered “coming” in 22 passages and “presence” in 2. The word can be interpreted coming, arrival or presence and simply expresses in the Greek what it implies in the English. The word parousia is mostly applied in Scripture to the second coming of the Lord although it is not solely restricted to that Advent. In II Thessalonians 2:9 the word is applied to the arrival of antichrist. The word is also used in other passages to describe the coming or arrival of a person (1 Corinthians 16:17 and 2 Corinthians 7:6).

Notwithstanding, the first time we encounter the word parousia in relation to the coming of the Lord is in Matthew 24. The word is found in the disciples’ response to the Lord’s statement outside the temple – “verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down” (v2).

The disciples then question the Lord on the detail, meaning and timing of this solemn prophecy and of the end of the world by way of two questions in Matthew 24:3, asking,

(1) “Tell us, when shall these things be?” and
(2) “what shall be the sign of thy coming (or parousia), and of the end (or sunteleías, or completion, or consummation) of the world?”

In this passage, "the end of the world" is plainly identified with the coming of the Lord.

The Lord employs the word parousia in reply to the disciples second question in Matthew 24:23-28, when He says, “if any man shall say unto you (before the one final future second coming of the Lord), Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the parousia of the Son be. Wheresoever is the carcase, there will be gathered together the eagles.”

Christ continues in Matthew 24:29-31, speaking of this one final future coming, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

This is the end! Jesus clearly comes “after the tribulation.”

Matthew 24:35-41 continues: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming (or parousia) of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one ‘shall be taken’ [Gr. paralambano], and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one ‘shall be taken’ [Gr. paralambano], and the other left.”

After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away,” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” This final day that is approachingis coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

Christ describes this day as an unanticipated day for many – one that will find many unprepared. For those who are playing at religion they will be caught on. They will face the same punishment as the “hypocrite” when He comes: “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” The wicked are an all-inclusive group; they include every Christ-rejecter – from the religious professors to the outright profane hypocrites. They will all be caught in the destruction when they are left behind and the “heaven and earth ... pass away.”

The Lord uses the word parousia again in v 37 to equate the days preceding His coming to the days preceding Noah’s entry into the ark, saying, “as the days of Noe were, so shall also the parousia of the Son of man be.” In His reply, Christ confirmed, what the disciples already seem to have rightly comprehended, in their questioning, that His next Coming is His last and only future coming and that it ushers in “the end of the world (or age)”

We note three particular characteristics of this day, which will be repeated at the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. (1) The wicked lived as if there was no judgement coming, verse 38 says, “they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage.” (2) The wicked were caught unexpected, verse 39 says, they “knew not until the flood came.” And finally, (3) the wicked were ALL destroyed, verse 39 says, “the flood came, and took them all away.”

 

[WPM]

Where are your dots to connect that show a single return of Jesus at the end of the tribulation?

1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3 confirms: “we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”

It is very simple what this is saying to the unindoctrinated mind. This is the end. It is over. God's people are rescued. The wicked are destroyed. There are no survivors here. We are now into eternity.

This coming is not only sudden but noisy. Christ is not coming secretly with an apologetic whisper but publicly with a triumphant shout. He appears with “with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.” This trumpet will sound and bring forth the elect from all nations. I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s Advent in glory that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies.

Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of His coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful that none escape. That is explicit in the narrative. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed, allowing no room for the Pretrib theory of a subsequent 7yrs trib or some imaginary future millennium.

Jesus then concludes Matthew 24:35-41: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”

What is "that day" that Jesus refers to here in His teaching? There is only one answer: the day He just spoke about – the day and hour when "heaven and earth shall pass away." Hello! This couldn’t be clearer.

After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away,” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” What day and hour? The one and only final future climactic coming (or parousia) of our Lord. Please see the Greek word is used twice here in this passage. This final day that is approaching is coming unexpectedly for the lost. His arrival will surprise only those who are not prepared for it. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 confirms the finality of that day and its clear relation to the end, saying, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming [Gr. parousia]. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

This reading outlines in totally unambiguous language how the second coming of the Lord will be completely all-consummating in its nature. This final event expressly ushers in the end, and is the stage that Christ finally presents “up the kingdom to God” and “shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.” It is the concluding end for all mankind on this scene of time, now eternity and the general judgement. Notwithstanding, we cannot fail to note the stark contrast between God’s dealing with the kingdom of God and that of the kingdom of darkness at the end. One is finally presented “up,” the other is finally put “down.” All this coincides with the one final future coming (or ‘parousia’) of the Lord.

 

[CrowCross]

The peace and safety occurs just before Jesus comes at His one final future coming.

Peace and safety from what?

 

[Taken]

I was brought up Pretrib/Premil when I was young. As I grew, I started to question many of its main tenets because I could find no clear scriptural warrant for all its core claims.

YOU were Taught.
YOU Heard.
YOU could NOT Believe on Gods TERMS.
YOU Left.
YOU make up your OWN TERMS.
YOU Make False Charges Against THEY in Confessed Saved Belief AND Understanding.
THEN…
YOU demand answers on YOUR Terms.

* Salvation IS A Gift Offering…
From the Lord God…
To the Living.
* The Gift of Salvation IS Given…
To the Bodily Dead.

How many Times Does A Body Die In Heartful Belief… and The Gift of Salvation IS Given?

ONCE!

As I reached out to ask the simple questions:

No you asked … QUESTIONS…
Beginning with A false Charge…
Mixed with YOUR opinions.
Limited to Scriptures YOU chose.

I found a defensiveness, a sheepishness, an avoidance, and even a hostility for daring to question the doctrine from the occasional Pretribber - in real life.

What did you expect … A Hug… for Starting YOUR posts with…a Personal Negative Preface?

This created many red flags.

Yes… You establish a False Narrative, and then Demand cooperation.
Yes Red Flag… AND Repeated over and Over Established YOUR negative Reputation, thus broadly AVOIDED.

I have been engaging online with Pretribbers since 2000.

Ha. You do not answer questions

I even operated on RaptureReady until they banned all Posttribbers in one foul swoop- as they were demolishing the Pretrib argument, left right and center. My findings have been pretty consistent across the boards.

The sad thing about debating with Pretribbers is that they refuse to acknowledge the obvious: they do not have one single proof text …

Gods Truth of knowledge does not appear in ONE Liners to satisfy You…
Except maybe in a Toddler Bible.

The Mystery of Gods Understanding of His Knowledge “Very Rarely” is Revealed in Written Scripture…

Which is what YOU Really Are Demanding…and obviously THAT Understanding IS NOT for You.


Receiving Salvation is one thing.
Rapture is another thing.

support their belief of a rapture of the church, followed by 7 years tribulation (or any trib), followed by a third coming.

Your Words, Your Terms, Your mixing.

It is a man-made invention.

Your Words.

Instead of admitting that they have been misled,

Wholly disagree the Lord God Himself Misleads, His Flock, His People!

many try to justify their extra-biblical error.

YOU said…

. WPM…I was brought up Pretrib/Premil when I was young. As I grew, I started to question many of its main tenets because I …

…

Five times… All you, you, you, you, you…

Why should anyone be concerned that YOU heard, YOU walked away, YOU looked, YOU figured, YOU rejected…?

I don’t Follow YOU!

When that is called out, as it has been on this thread, most online Pretribbers become frustrated, agitated, and evasive. They normally resort to ad-hominem, and then run for the exit.

So? More of Scripture you reject?

Rom 16:
[17] Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

You admittedly Are contrary to the Doctrine you claim to Have Learned!

 

[CrowCross]

yet you have not been able to show us one that mentions a white horse.

Rev 19:11

Now, stop making the claim. You're lying.

 

[WPM]

YOU were Taught.
YOU Heard.
YOU could NOT Believe on Gods TERMS.
YOU Left.
YOU make up your OWN TERMS.
YOU Make False Charges Against THEY in Confessed Saved Belief AND Understanding.
THEN…
YOU demand answers on YOUR Terms.

* Salvation IS A Gift Offering…
From the Lord God…
To the Living.
* The Gift of Salvation IS Given…
To the Bodily Dead.

How many Times Does A Body Die In Heartful Belief… and The Gift of Salvation IS Given?

ONCE!





No you asked … QUESTIONS…
Beginning with A false Charge…
Mixed with YOUR opinions.
Limited to Scriptures YOU chose.



What did you expect … A Hug… for Starting YOUR posts with…a Personal Negative Preface?



Yes… You establish a False Narrative, and then Demand cooperation.
Yes Red Flag… AND Repeated over and Over Established YOUR negative Reputation, thus broadly AVOIDED.


Ha. You do not answer questions

Gods Truth of knowledge does not appear in ONE Liners to satisfy You…
Except maybe in a Toddler Bible.

The Mystery of Gods Understanding of His Knowledge “Very Rarely” is Revealed in Written Scripture…

Which is what YOU Really Are Demanding…and obviously THAT Understanding IS NOT for You.


Receiving Salvation is one thing.
Rapture is another thing.

Your Words, Your Terms, Your mixing.

Your Words.


Wholly disagree the Lord God Himself Misleads, His Flock, His People!


YOU said…

…

Five times… All you, you, you, you, you…

Why should anyone be concerned that YOU heard, YOU walked away, YOU looked, YOU figured, YOU rejected…?

I don’t Follow YOU!






So? More of Scripture you reject?

Rom 16:
[17] Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

You admittedly Are contrary to the Doctrine you claim to Have Learned!

Again, zero proof texts and more ad hominem. You reinforce my thesis above.

 

[CrowCross]

1+1+1+1+1 = 5 not 11111.

Actually 1+1+1=3...the Trinity of the Godhead.

 

[WPM]

Peace and safety from what?

The ungodly think they are OK. But they are caught unprepared at the one final future coming of Christ.

 

[CrowCross]

The ungodly think they are OK. But they are caught unprepared at the one final future coming of Christ.

You didn't answer the question...using your words you avoided the question.

Peace and safety from what?

 

[WPM]

You didn't answer the question...using your words you avoided the question.

Peace and safety from what?

There will be a false peace/unity brought in by man that the nations will embrace. They think they are good. They are OK. Then sudden destruction destroys all the wicked. As in Noah's day and as in Sodom. Check what Jesus said.

 

[CrowCross]

There will be a false peace/unity brought in by man that the nations will embrace. They think they are good. They are OK. Then sudden destruction destroys all the wicked. As in Noah's day and as in Sodom. Check what Jesus said.

What is this....false peace/unity brought in by man that the nations will embrace?
How is it played out at the end of the tribulation?