It Must Be Absolutely Terrifying To Be A Post-Tribulation Believer
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David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Have you prayed what Jesus asked?
You are trying to tell me that you know what scripture means, but you haven't prayed?
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
i always pray to JESUS that HE may keep me from the evil one and give me strength to overcome.
Ok well, if you endure to the end in that, you will be saved (although technically Jesus wanted you to pray a stronger prayer than that).
What you're telling me, is that you will always pray - which is good. The difference between predictions you make knowing that you will always be praying and the predictions you made before you made that commitment - should become clear to you (Isaiah 30:21).
I want you to know why you are praying, more than what you are predicting while you are praying.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
i do not make predictions
i do follow the words of Christ and the Apostles including their prophesies
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
This is an incredibly ridiculous thing for you to say.
By referring to "strong delusion" you must be referring to this scripture which is the only one that refers to "strong delusion":
2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Can you see here that God sends strong delusion to those who are damned and not saved? How in the world can you say this in relation to CHRISTIANS who have the wrong end times beliefs? That is insane and utterly ludicrous. Our salvation is not dependent upon having the correct end times beliefs.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
The passage does indeed regard the damned, but only in contrast while otherwise addressing the saved. This is the circumstance with all who are born since Adam. Just as Moses set before Israel "life and death, blessing and cursing", this is the same for all. In other words, we are all under the curse of damnation, "but" then Paul says "But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth..."
Paul then goes on to tell them to "stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught"...that is, hold fast to the truth-- not to what was also foretold to come and falsely taught during those same times which has continued now for 2,000 years and become the most popular doctrine fulfilling the foretold "great apostacy."
I submit to you that all this was foretold and is now come to fruition, from which we either turn or remain victims.
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
The point is that those who God sends strong delusion are not saved. Yet, you are applying that to saved people who happen to disagree with your end times view. That is ridiculous to apply that verse to them. Why can't you acknowledge this?
You are skating around the issue here. Those who God sends strong delusion are not saved. That is very clear from the text.
2 Thess 2:8 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
It couldn't be more clear that Paul was saying that God sends strong delusion to those who "received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved". So, he said God would send strong delusion to those who rejected the truth and were not saved. That does not describe pre, mid and post-trib BELIEVERS who put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior regardless of their end times beliefs.
I submit to you that you are not addressing my point. Are you telling me that you believe those who are wrong in their end times beliefs are not saved? That is what you are implying by applying 2 Thess 2:9 to those who disagree with your end times view. So, I submit to you that you are adding a condition to salvation that scripture never does. Please address this specifically.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Understandably, you are the one actually missing the point (just as so many have).
Remember, the point is "strong delusion." "For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect". Which if it did not apply to the Thessalonians, Paul would not have even needed to bring it up. If it did not apply to them, they too would have been offended just as many now are offended at the very idea that such delusion might apply to them. But he spoke of it...because it did apply to them...many of whom would indeed come to prefer it.
But you are responding as if there is no delusion, no false doctrines being taught within the church that have their roots back then when the spirit of anti-Christ was then already at work. All of which is confirmed in the scriptures, saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues."
For this same reason Christ also gave warning, saying, "But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Yet, you are apparently unable to express your point in a way that anyone can understand. Somehow, that is a problem for the rest of us, but not you? You are the common denominator here. Learn how to communicate more clearly. Don't put that on the rest of us.
In 2 Thess 2 it is applied to people who are not saved. You applied it to people for believing in pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib. So, were you not implying that people are not saved if they believe in pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib? Yes or no? If not, then you clearly have no idea of how you come across. If yes, then you are being ridiculous by making it as if people's end-times beliefs are determining factor in whether or not they are saved.
No, I am not! You are not even reading what I'm saying, apparently. I'm very clearly telling you that the strong delusion Paul wrote about applies to unsaved people. You are applying it even to saved people who believe in pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib. Do you understand that very straightforward point or not?
When it says her, it of course is referring to mystery Babylon. Are you equating the belief in pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib with mystery Babylon? Yes or no, please.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Good, one thing at a time. But do understand, I am addressing a 2,000 year old error deeply imbedded into the doctrines of the church. This is not an easy task, and it is understandably not likely to be received. That, however, does not take away the biblical fact that false teachings and great apostacy were foretold to occur and have. On the contrary, this has all been foretold and is undisputable. Thus, people of God ought rather to be haunted with this fact to the point of expecting or welcoming correction. But no, that is not the nature of those set in their ways...and yet here we are.
But to answer your question, no, I did not mean to imply that believing the false pre, mid, or post tribulation doctrines meant that people were unsaved. Not at all, in fact victims, as I said. What has actually occurred is false teachers have "offended these little ones" of the faith, and it is only those false teachers who have anything to fear regarding their salvation. Even so, the ship of false doctrine has been sailing off course since the anti-Christ spirit began to work among the church since its founding, and correction or "weeping and gnashing of teeth" is now upon us.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
...and yet all but John died violent deaths by the hand of the devil.
All that stay behind after the rapture will have to choose martyrdom or devil worship.
Jesus gave us the formula.
" pray that you may be counted WORTHY to escape the things about to come upon the earth..."
No postribber would ever pray that.
SMH
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
It says the AC kills all refusing the mark. So, no, there will be no christians to get to the end of the GT.
Rev 14 is the last boat leaving for heaven. And that is the ethnic Jews.
Postrib rapture is impossible.
Pretrib is the easiest to defend.
Agreed.
It may be... but that doesn't make it correct. God never promises to remove His people from any sort of tribulation, but to be with them and walk with them and protect them through it, in the midst of it. He doesn't remove us from anything, but rather delivers us. Among many others:
"Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for You are with me; Your rod and your staff, they comfort me. You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies; You anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life..." (Psalm 23)
Grace and peace to all.
No I would not. We have one opportunity here to overcome our flesh, to gain eternal rewards, to sow heavenly treasures. Why cut it short? I've wasted so much of my life already, I'm jealous for every moment that God deigns to give to me, though I still fail in my stewardship of time! No, I'll let Him be the One to call "Time", I don't want to jump the gun.
Much love!
Or . . .
Revelation 9:1-12 KJV
1) And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2) And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3) And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4) And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5) And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6) And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
7) And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
8) And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
9) And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
10) And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
11) And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
12) One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
Only the sealed 144,000 will be exempt from this. If the church is on earth at this time, this is what will happen to them all. 5 months of torment such that you will wish to die, try to die, and cannot.
I don't personally believe this is what God has in store for His children.
Much love!
All views except pre-trib create irreconcileable conflicts with a number of other passages. Only pre-trib brings harmony throughout. The other views require their adherants to not accept the plain sayings of many places in the Bible.
Much love!
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Read the letters to the four last churches. The Philadelphian church will be kept from this trial. That doesn't mean rapture per se but protected. So I will be alive and remain. I'm anything but lukewarm!
The first half of the GT the Jews are protected (chapter 12 "the woman") to be witnessed to and accept Christ, and the AC will go after "the rest of her offspring" (last verse of 12), lukewarm Christians. Those who will not accept the mark will be martyred. Those who do will be damned. The second half of the GT, all Christians including Jews will be tested by the GT to accept or reject the mark.
No new Gentiles will become Christians. God has put on them a strong delusion already to accept the mark. You must already be a Christian going into the GT to be martyred and come out of the GT a martyr for Jesus to reign with Christ for 1000 years.
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