JaneDoe's "What I believe"

[JohnPaul]

(Breaking this down to different sub-topics)

- Scripture (both the Bible and other books LDS Christians consider to be scripture) plainly proclaim the divine Sonship of God. He's not the Father-- they are two different persons, but both are God. The Spirit is a third divine person. I'll have another post here in a few minutes citing a bunch of verses about that.

- If you don't believe the Jesus is the divine Son of God, then you can't be an LDS Christian (belief in his Sonship is required), but that doesn't mean your love of Christ or standing as a Christian is in any way denied-- loving Christ is still something to be celebrated! Obviously there's major disagreements on foundational theology. And you as a person should be treated with love and respect.

- Even if you don't believe in Christ at all (non-Christian or even non-religious) you as a person should be treated with love and respect. Every person has the right to believe according to the their own conscious. That respect is so important to LDS Christians it's literally in the Article of Faith (which are considered scripture) Article of Faith 11

- As a group: The "anti-cult" movement is a Protestant thing, not LDS Christian-- in fact "Mormons" are the favorite targets of the "anti-cult" movement. LDS Christians don't hold classes teaching "this is what other people believe and why it's bad", rather teach that we should respect other people's beliefs (again, it's literally an Article of Faith).

- I personally have studied many faiths because I'm a nerd that way. I study by attending X services, asking X members their beliefs, reading their literature with them etc. Very diligent first-hand studying. My definition of a "cult" has nothing to do with whether or not you accept Christ, but how they operate. A cult foundaitonally employs fear-based tactics of "us vs them", threats, encourages attacking others, cutting off family members, and only following what the leaders say rather than individual thought, etc. I actually find the "anti-cult" movement to be a cult itself, as well as the JW. I've found individuals with a cultic mindset in a about every group (human fallacy).

Thank you for explaining Jane.

 

[reformed1689]

This is an excellent example of "anti-cult" misinformation: Jesus is God, we are not. If I explain the actual beliefs are you willing to listen? I don't want to waste either of our time if you're not interested.

I'm interested, but it also sounds like you don't beleive what your church believes which I find interesting.

 

[reformed1689]

Nah, Jesus himself said he wasn't God..

A certain ruler asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered, “No one is good except God alone" (Luke 18:19)

Jesus said - "Only God knows when Judgment Day will be, I don't know myself" (Mark 13:32)

Jesus said - "I say nothing of my own accord, i only say what my father tells me to say.." (John 12:49)

None of those verses say Jesus is not God. By the way Mark 12:32 says the Father, not God knows. It doesn't exclude Jesus from being God.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I'm interested, but it also sounds like you don't beleive what your church believes which I find interesting.

I'm explaining actual beliefs and teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

Jesus is God. The Son of God, to be more specific. He, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are 3 different persons in 1 God. Christ has always existed, always followed the will of the Father, always been God, is all powerful, all knowing, endlessly just, endless merciful, etc. He is the only Begotten Son of God, created the Earth, was born of virgin, died for our sins, rose again on the third day, etc. The difference between LDS Christian view and the Creedal Christian view is in the *how* they are 1, LDS Christians believing through unity of will/purpose/goodness/glory/etc (see John 17), whereas the Creeds add substance to that list (see the Athanasian Creed).

All of the above is about God & completely independent of me/you.

Comparing this to you & me: there are more theological differences. Creedal beliefs are that a newborn's spirit is less than 1 year old, is inherently a sinner, and not a child of God. LDS Christian's believe that the newborn's spirit has always existed, and the Father is the Father of that spirit. This person is not God, and they become a sinner as they sins. They are not God.

There is a huge difference between the perfect Son of God whom always follows the will of the Father, versus you & I that choose to sin.

 

[reformed1689]

Comparing this to you & me: there are more theological differences. Creedal beliefs are that a newborn's spirit is less than 1 year old, is inherently a sinner, and not a child of God. LDS Christian's believe that the newborn's spirit has always existed, and the Father is the Father of that spirit. This person is not God, and they become a sinner as they sins. They are not God.

Here is the proble, that is not in the Bible at all.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Here is the proble, that is not in the Bible at all.

Do you understand that LDS Christians do not view me/you as being the same as Christ the Son of God?

 

[Dropship]

Speaking of the LDS, they tried to recruit me a few years ago when a couple of "Elders" stopped me in the town centre where they were speaking to passersby. (They wore the standard white shirts and ties and looked squeaky clean, and they were only young men so I dunno why their badges said "Elders")
They asked "Excuse me sir but what do you know about the Lord Jesus Christ?", so I replied "I think I heard he's the Son of God".
They broke into great big smiles and said "That's exactly right, would you like to come to a cafe and discuss it some more?
"Sorry" I answered, "I have to get to the computer shop before it closes" and bid them a cheery goodbye..

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Speaking of the LDS, they tried to recruit me a few years ago when a couple of "Elders" stopped me in the town centre where they were recruiting. (They wore the standard white shirts and ties and looked squeaky clean, were only young men so I dunno why their badges said "Elders")
They asked "Excuse me sir but what do you know about the Lord Jesus Christ?", so I replied "I think I heard he's the Son of God".
They broke into great big smiles and said "That's exactly right, would you like to come to a cafe and discuss it some more?
"Sorry" I answered, "I have to get to the computer shop before it closes" and bid them a cheery goodbye..

"Elder" is a title for male missionaries, and obviously isn't supposed to be understood as "I'm old" because they aren't. "Sisters" is the title for female missionaries. Going and preaching the Gospel is an instruction from God (Matt. 28:16-20). They preach to everyone

 

[Dropship]

An acquaintance of mine was once an LDS member but he didn't like it and left.
He told me that at one meeting in one of their "temples", the bible was on a table up front but they'd placed the Book of Mormon on top of it as if to relegate it to second place.
It figgers, here's one of their quotes-
"Whoever thinks the Bible is sufficient and infallible are fools" (Book of Mormon II Nephi 29:3-10)

 

[Dropship]

"Elder" is a title for male missionaries, and obviously isn't supposed to be understood as "I'm old" because they aren't. "Sisters" is the title for female missionaries. Going and preaching the Gospel is an instruction from God (Matt. 28:16-20). They preach to everyone

If they preach the gospel without putting their own spin on it, that's fine, otherwise it's a naughty step offence..-
"If anyone preaches a perverted gospel they're accursed" (Galatians 1:6-9)

 

[Jane_Doe22]

An acquaintance of mine was once an LDS member but he didn't like it and left.
He told me that at one meeting in one of their "temples", the bible was on a table up front but they'd placed the Book of Mormon on top of it as if to relegate it to second place.

Honestly it doesn't remotely matter which paper book is literally placed on top, they are viewed as sisters. If you remotely care, when studying or citing scriptures it is traditional to do Old Testament first, then New Testament, then Book of Mormon, and then other.

It figgers, here's one of their quotes-
"Whoever thinks the Bible is sufficient and infallible are fools" (Book of Mormon II Nephi 29:3-10)

That's not the actual quote, but close enough of jist. And yes: I do not believe in sola scriptura, rather I believe it is paramount that God and revelation from Him to be continually sought. God's not dead, so let's not treat the Bible like it's a closed letter from a dead man.

If they preach the gospel without putting their own spin on it, that's fine, otherwise it's a naughty step offence..-
"If anyone preaches a perverted gospel they're accursed" (Galatians 1:6-9)

You could say the same for any person or group. For me, Galatians 1 is actually one of the most pro-LDS Christian chapters due to it's emphasis on seeking revelation for yourself, and not just because someone told you xyz. Several of my earlier posts on this thread actually talked about that importance-- it's a super big deal for me.

 

[reformed1689]

Do you understand that LDS Christians do not view me/you as being the same as Christ the Son of God?

I understand that is your viewpoint yes.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I understand that is your viewpoint yes.

Ok, so it's understood that LDS Christians believe & teach that Jesus is the divine Son of God (yes He is God), and you/I are not God. Do you understand that?

Note: I'm not remotely trying to convince you to change your beliefs, just explaining what actual LDS Christian beliefs are vs "anti-cult" claims.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Do you hold Joseph Smith or Brigham Young to a higher place than you do Jesus ?

Do you obey the Word of God the 66 books of the Canon before you obey the book of Mormons ?

Why believe in polygamy when it breaks the laws of the land we are told to obey, knowing God has placed these rulers ?

Where is the heresy told that a man must have many wives and many children to build his army in heaven ?

What part of your organization makes you believe that you are NOT in a man made cult ?

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Do you hold Joseph Smith or Brigham Young to a higher place than you do Jesus ?

No. Jesus Christ is the divine Son of God, Savior of the world. MY Savior. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young are sinners in need of a Savior. Posts #1 and #20 have more detail on that.

Do you obey the Word of God the 66 books of the Canon before you obey the book of Mormons ?

False dichotomy.
The "Mormon Bible" is the KJV, and is viewed as a sister to other scriptures, all working in concert. Not one ruling over another.

Why believe in polygamy when it breaks the laws of the land we are told to obey, knowing God has placed these rulers ?

If you want to get near instantly excommunicated as an LDS Christian, marrying a second person is just the thing to have that express excommunication done. It's been banned since the 1800's.

Where is the heresy told that a man must have many wives and many children to build his army in heaven ?

Theres no actual LDS Christian doctrine remotely stating that.

What part of your organization makes you believe that you are NOT in a man made cult ?

If you want to evaluate my faith, feel free to ask me about my love of Jesus Christ. Or read about it on this thread. Christ alone in my Lord and Savior.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Thank you @Jane_Doe22 for your precise answers. The one I object to is God's divine Holy Ghost inspired Word has NO SISTER TEXT. It is what God says and needs zero props !
I stand on the Word of God as the ONLY AUTHORITY for a believer, Not anything a man may interpret comes into my per view.

I do not read religious books, I watch only one preacher Richard Owen Roberts which I have a thread for sharing. He preaches the inspired word under the anointing.

May we ALL love in Christ our REDEEMER, LORD and SAVIOUR. I am not the judge of anyone's heart. When we ALL get to heaven..................

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Thank you @Jane_Doe22 for your precise answers. The one I object to is God's divine Holy Ghost inspired Word has NO SISTER TEXT. It is what God says and needs zero props !
I stand on the Word of God as the ONLY AUTHORITY for a believer, Not anything a man may interpret comes into my per view.

I do not read religious books, I watch only one preacher Richard Owen Roberts which I have a thread for sharing. He preaches the inspired word under the anointing.

Just explaining my views: I'm not a sola scriptura person. For me, God is unchanging: He gave revelation and guided His people in times of old (including giving scripture) and I don't see that changing. The most common verse cited to justify the belief in that scripture is now closed is Revelation 20, to which I do not agree with that interpretation for a number of reasons. Of course if you do interpret it that way, I totally respect your belief there.

May we ALL love in Christ our REDEEMER, LORD and SAVIOUR. I am not the judge of anyone's heart. When we ALL get to heaven..................

High five to that!!

 

[JohnPaul]

No. Jesus Christ is the divine Son of God, Savior of the world. MY Savior. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young are sinners in need of a Savior. Posts #1 and #20 have more detail on that.

False dichotomy.
The "Mormon Bible" is the KJV, and is viewed as a sister to other scriptures, all working in concert. Not one ruling over another.

If you want to get near instantly excommunicated as an LDS Christian, marrying a second person is just the thing to have that express excommunication done. It's been banned since the 1800's.

Theres no actual LDS Christian doctrine remotely stating that.

If you want to evaluate my faith, feel free to ask me about my love of Jesus Christ. Or read about it on this thread. Christ alone in my Lord and Savior.

Hi Jane, there are two different sects of Mormons correct, ones that are polygamists like the Jeff Jeffers Clan and then the ones who aren't?

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Hi Jane, there are two different sects of Mormons correct, ones that are polygamists like the Jeff Jeffers Clan and then the ones who aren't?

That confusion is only due to poor reporting, and is like calling Protestants another sect of Catholicism.

Warren Jeff’s group left the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints decades ago because they objected to the revelation to not take plural wives. It’s a very small group (like 20k people in total), they don’t use the term “Mormon”, and are isolationists. They have very different practices, scriptures, leadership structure, etc. A person moving from one of these faiths to the other represents a major transition in beleif, social practice, and excommunication from the old group.

Same with the other polygamist groups, which are all extremely small.

 

[JohnPaul]

That confusion is only due to poor reporting, and is like calling Protestants another sect of Catholicism.

Warren Jeff’s group left the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints decades ago because they objected to the revelation to not take plural wives. It’s a very small group (like 20k people in total), they don’t use the term “Mormon”, and are isolationists. They have very different practices, scriptures, leadership structure, etc. A person moving from one of these faiths to the other represents a major transition in beleif, social practice, and excommunication from the old group.

Same with the other polygamist groups, which are all extremely small.

I’m sorry I don’t know where I got the name Jeff Jeffers from, thank you for that correction and clarifying that for me and hopefully others.