Jesus and Commands

[1stCenturyLady]

There's that word again. "saved" I really think people don't know what that means.

If a veteran comes back from war with his arms and legs blown off....and is reduced to being a vegetable because of head injuries...but is fully alive besides that. Is he "saved?" He isn't dead. But he is a casualty.

So it depends on your definition of saved.

Most saved people are casualties. They begin ok but then they step on the landmines of false doctrines...and don't seem to be able to walk away the same. They trade in spiritual freedom for what is called "eternal security".

But as anyone knows freedom and security don't mix.

I would say "saved" in the sense of having obtained eternal life, even if they first must die, physically.

My question remains.

 

[Episkopos]

I would say "saved" in the sense of having obtained eternal life, even if they first must die, physically.

My question remains.

No one obtains eternal life as something that is theirs in this life. We enter into HIS life which is eternal. It is always HIS life we are moving in and through. Or we come out from under His life and live as any other human...with a POTENTIAL for a future entrance into life. We are in a race. No one wins before the end....even if you have a big lead. Big leads can be blown.

A better question is...how many people are walking as Jesus walked by abiding in Him in His eternal life?

So few a child can count them.

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus lived under the Law, but came to introduce a new way to fulfill the righteous requirements of the Law.

Jesus came to uphold His WORD - the LAW of God from the Word of God, while at the same time providing salvation for fallen mankind for "all had sinned". Jesus did not come to "make it ok for saints to take God's name in vain" -- as hopefully all will freely admit.

In the NEW Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-33 the LAW of God - known to Jeremiah and his readers that included the TEN Commandments is "written on the heart and mind" Jer 31:31-33 ALSO TRUE in the NT Hebrews 8:6-12 -- unchanged.

The TEN Commandments where the "First commandment with a promise is - Honor your father and mother" REMAINS according to Paul in Eph 6:2 and saints are called to honor God's Word in that regard.

The "new covenant" includes the LAW of God written on the heart... and that Law according to Eph 6:2 and James 2 and Romans 7 and Romans 13 and Matthew 19, and Mark 7:6-11 includes the TEN Commandments.

No wonder then the saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

Your claim that keeping the TEN Commandments via the power of God the Holy Spirit is part of the Gospel solution to the sin problem - is agreed to by all of us I think.

There is no such thing as "casting out the requirement to not take God's name in vain" and I think we all know it.

 

[GodsGrace]

In Matthew 22 Jesus quotes two commandments in the Law of Moses
Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart"
Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself".

Jesus said all of the Bible "All the Law and the prophets" were firmly established on those two commands found in the Law of Moses.

In Mathew 19 - Jesus said "If you want to inherit eternal life - keep the Commandments" - and He is immediately asked the question "which ones?".

In Jesus' response He lists almost all of the TEN Commandments dealing with man's duty to man,,, the "Love your neighbor" part of it.
But He does not list "Do not take God's name in vain" and a few others of the TEN. Not because He was abolishing them - but because that was not the point He was trying to make with the "rich young ruler."

Paul gives almost that same exact list from the TEN Commandments in Romans 13.

Of course in Mark 7:6-13 - Jesus gets right down to the point of the whole thing.

Many will also say that Jesus came to FULFILL the law so that we have nothing more to do but believe in Christ. They believe fulfill means to do everything perfectly, as in fulfill a requirement, so that we don't have to. Fulfill in Mathew 5:17 Jesus means that he came to fulfill the law and the prophets: First that He came to fulfill prophecies about Him....second that He came to complete the law and to make it real and understood. Jesus said God's law is valid forever.
Jesus fulfilled the law by destroying its curse by dying on the cross.

It was a curse because it allowed man to see his evil...and one of the atonement theories is that Jesus died to kill the power of satan over man's nature,,,thus giving man the power over his sin nature.

 

[GodsGrace]

In Matthew 22 Jesus quotes two commandments in the Law of Moses
Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart"
Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself".

Jesus said all of the Bible "All the Law and the prophets" were firmly established on those two commands found in the Law of Moses.

In Mathew 19 - Jesus said "If you want to inherit eternal life - keep the Commandments" - and He is immediately asked the question "which ones?".

In Jesus' response He lists almost all of the TEN Commandments dealing with man's duty to man,,, the "Love your neighbor" part of it.
But He does not list "Do not take God's name in vain" and a few others of the TEN. Not because He was abolishing them - but because that was not the point He was trying to make with the "rich young ruler."

Paul gives almost that same exact list from the TEN Commandments in Romans 13.

Of course in Mark 7:6-13 - Jesus gets right down to the point of the whole thing.

I just wanted to add that Jesus didn't quote the commandments referring to God to the rich young man because it was apparent by his question that he honored God but wanted to do more. So Jesus told him to also honor and do for his fellow man.
IMO.

Yes. Jesus' two great commandments cover all the others.

 

[GodsGrace]

yes. 1050 of them in the NT. http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/201407/r1308729_17984331.pdf

I looked at the link.
Wow!
I hope the faith only persons don't notice it....it might get them to rethink their position! (oh no!)
I bookmarked the link...

 

[Episkopos]

I just wanted to add that Jesus didn't quote the commandments referring to God to the rich young man because it was apparent by his question that he honored God but wanted to do more. So Jesus told him to also honor and do for his fellow man.
IMO.

Yes. Jesus' two great commandments cover all the others.

The young man asked Jesus what he needed to do to inherit eternal life. Jesus answered ...obey the law of righteousness (love others).

There was no holiness requirement.

When he asked Jesus if there was more...Jesus said perfection (holiness) was found by abandoning everything and following Him. This shows that holiness is found ONLY in Jesus Christ. Although righteousness is still found everywhere.

 

[GodsGrace]

**********

What is often missed when discussing biblical law is precisely what the Ten Commandments were and are. The Bible clearly defines this with several passages, as follows:

And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel. And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments (Exodus 34:27-28).

And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone (Deuteronomy 4:13).

And I have set there a place for the ark, wherein is the covenant of the LORD, which he made with our fathers, when he brought them out of the land of Egypt (I Kings 8:21).

And in it have I put the ark, wherein is the covenant of the LORD, that he made with the children of Israel (II Chronicles 6:11).


There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone, which Moses put there at Horeb, when the LORD made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt (I Kings 8:9).
​

Thus the Ten Commandments are the Old Covenant. And likewise, the Old Covenant consists of the The commandments.

However, Christians are under the New Covenant, which is based on God's perfect law of love:

If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well (James 2:8).

Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets (Matthew 22:35-40).

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will [future tense] make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will [future tense] put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people (Jeremiah 31:31-33.


​

Very good post.
But could you do the following:

The law was written on the tables of stone.
The law is written on our heart.

But the Law is still written, is it not?

So what exactly are you saying?
Do we obey the law? Some say we don't have to because we're under the New Covenant.

And what is the difference between the O.C. and the N.C. if they both contain the law?

Welcome to the forum.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Jesus came to uphold His WORD - the LAW of God from the Word of God, while at the same time providing salvation for fallen mankind for "all had sinned". Jesus did not come to "make it ok for saints to take God's name in vain" -- as hopefully all will freely admit.

In the NEW Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-33 the LAW of God - known to Jeremiah and his readers that included the TEN Commandments is "written on the heart and mind" Jer 31:31-33 ALSO TRUE in the NT Hebrews 8:6-12 -- unchanged.

The TEN Commandments where the "First commandment with a promise is - Honor your father and mother" REMAINS according to Paul in Eph 6:2 and saints are called to honor God's Word in that regard.

The "new covenant" includes the LAW of God written on the heart... and that Law according to Eph 6:2 and James 2 and Romans 7 and Romans 13 and Matthew 19, and Mark 7:6-11 includes the TEN Commandments.

No wonder then the saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

Your claim that keeping the TEN Commandments via the power of God the Holy Spirit is part of the Gospel solution to the sin problem - is agreed to by all of us I think.

There is no such thing as "casting out the requirement to not take God's name in vain" and I think we all know it.

The Ten Commandments doesn't require love to fulfill them, just willpower, but from a sinful nature. That is why the Ten Commandments as a way to fulfill righteousness failed.

 

[GodsGrace]

I see this is an older thread. But the question is up to date.

I've tried sharing this before...but a lot of people are hard of understanding....and maybe you will not get it either....but I'll try.

God is love.

His commandments are to love.

The 10 commandments can be boiled down to 2 main commandments...Love God.....and love others.

The first 4 commandments were written on a stone tablet. These are the HOLINESS commandments. They say....love God.

The last 6 commandments were written on the another stone tablet. These are the righteousness commandments. They say...love others.

We obey the first 4 commandments by following Christ. HOLINESS now is to enter into Him.The old temple holiness laws are abolished because the real deal is here.

But the "royal law" which is the 2nd tablet remains....love others. Do this and live. (future life)

BOTH main commandments are fulfilled in a new commandment.....to love as Jesus loved. Do this and receive a reward...(life now plus future glory)

Hey. It sounds perfect to me!
Not only do I get it,,,I used to teach this to little people, miniature humans - before they grow up and start getting strange ideas ... like maybe God didn't create everything they see.

Would you care to expound on the righteousness commandments since I've never heard them referred to this way.

Are they righteous because Jesus gave them to us in the Two Great Commandments which cover all the others and we could follow them with the help of the Holy Spirit?

Are they righteous because if we follow them we are seen as righteous in God's eyes?

Thanks.

 

[Episkopos]

Hey. It sounds perfect to me!
Not only do I get it,,,I used to teach this to little people, miniature humans - before they grow up and start getting strange ideas ... like maybe God didn't create everything they see.

Would you care to expound on the righteousness commandments since I've never heard them referred to this way.

Are they righteous because Jesus gave them to us in the Two Great Commandments which cover all the others and we could follow them with the help of the Holy Spirit?

Are they righteous because if we follow them we are seen as righteous in God's eyes?

Thanks.

Humans can do what is right or wrong...we have that ability. Now we can't see God with our natural eyes so we live in a world of the visible.

Now we DO see humans.

If we are faithful with humans...then we will also be faithful with God. He who is faithful in little is also faithful in much.

So God judges our faithfulness...and righteousness....by how we treat others.

So then the second tablet of commandments is about righteousness...the righteousness of the law.

Do you honour your parents? if you don't honour your parents who brought you into this world...how will you honour God who you have never met ...yet created you (brought you into this world)?

etc...

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Do we obey the law? Some say we don't have to because we're under the New Covenant.

We obey the eternal laws of God through the Spirit. They are the laws of righteousness - "To love God with all your heart, mind and strength, and your neighbor as yourself.

And "by the Spirit" I mean from being born again with a NEW NATURE that is empowered by the Spirit.

 

[GodsGrace]

The young man asked Jesus what he needed to do to inherit eternal life. Jesus answered ...obey the law of righteousness (love others).

There was no holiness requirement.

When he asked Jesus if there was more...Jesus said perfection (holiness) was found by abandoning everything and following Him. This shows that holiness is found ONLY in Jesus Christ. Although righteousness is still found everywhere.

Interesting.
Jesus IS GOD. So if one follows HIM, the holiness requirement, as you call it, is completed in this action.

Where did you learn the terms holiness and righteousness requirement?

 

[Episkopos]

We obey the eternal laws of God through the Spirit. They are the laws of righteousness - "To love God with all your heart, mind and strength, and your neighbor as yourself.

And "by the Spirit" I mean from being born again with a NEW NATURE that is empowered by the Spirit.

God is holy....and wholly living apart from His creation. As such it requires holiness to approach Him...not just righteousness.

There is a distinction to be made between righteousness (doing what is right) and holiness (perfect as He is perfect....pure as He is pure)

There is a human righteousness and then there is the righteousness of God...in they that walk in God's power and authority. The first will inherit life....and the second will inherit glory.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Ten Commandments doesn't require love to fulfill them, just willpower, but from a sinful nature. That is why the Ten Commandments as a way to fulfill righteousness failed.

The 10 commandments DO require love to fulfill them...this is why the Mosaic Covenant failed --- Jesus had not come yet to leave us with the Holy Spirit and to teach us HOW to obey the commandments.

We know that will power does not work very well....
Would you agree?

 

[Episkopos]

Interesting.
Jesus IS GOD. So if one follows HIM, the holiness requirement, as you call it, is completed in this action.

Where did you learn the terms holiness and righteousness requirement?

The bible of course.

The holiness requirement is not fulfilled in righteousness. The only holiness that is possible is to enter into Christ and HIS righteousness. We put on Christ to approach God. So then Jesus alone fulfills the holiness requirement.

But we can operate at the much lower level of loving others as ourselves....and inherit life.

The difference is either ruling...or being ruled over.

In the army in order to be an officer...you need to go through extensive studies and a vetting process. Then you get a commission that gives you responsibility for the lives under your care.

But a soldier has none of these responsibilities. He just does as he's told.

So it is with the holy....and the righteous.

The next age will fully embody these things.

 

[Episkopos]

The 10 commandments DO require love to fulfill them...this is why the Mosaic Covenant failed --- Jesus had not come yet to leave us with the Holy Spirit and to teach us HOW to obey the commandments.

We know that will power does not work very well....
Would you agree?

There were righteous people in the OT.

 

[GodsGrace]

Humans can do what is right or wrong...we have that ability. Now we can't see God with our natural eyes so we live in a world of the visible.

Now we DO see humans.

If we are faithful with humans...then we will also be faithful with God. He who is faithful in little is also faithful in much.

So God judges our faithfulness...and righteousness....by how we treat others.

So then the second tablet of commandments is about righteousness...the righteousness of the law.

Do you honour your parents? if you don't honour your parents who brought you into this world...how will you honour God who you have never met ...yet created you (brought you into this world)?

etc...

Understood and agreed.

I liked this:
So God judges our faithfulness...and righteousness....by how we treat others.

Very good !
Also, let's explain righteousness...
Being right with God. Simple.

 

[GodsGrace]

We obey the eternal laws of God through the Spirit. They are the laws of righteousness - "To love God with all your heart, mind and strength, and your neighbor as yourself.

And "by the Spirit" I mean from being born again with a NEW NATURE that is empowered by the Spirit.

I remember our conversations now...
I believe we agree on pretty much everything... the above sounds good.

Do you understand laws of righteousness to be laws that make us "right with God"?
(if followed).

 

[Episkopos]

Understood and agreed.

I liked this:
So God judges our faithfulness...and righteousness....by how we treat others.

Very good !
Also, let's explain righteousness...
Being right with God. Simple.

Righteousness: Doing what is right in the sight of God....not necessarily WITH God. That's a mixture.

We can do things, as Christians, to be pleasing to God...which is good. But God judges whether they are truly righteous or not. Religious people tend to do things for the wrong reasons. A lot of self-interest there. (as in...I'm doing this because I'm so saved....etc)

Religion wants a guarantee that the adherents to it are "right with God" based on their beliefs, rituals and customs. But righteousness is simpler than that. AND far more difficult...if we are talking about the righteousness of God.

So then religion is unable to do either righteous requirement so it makes a false righteousness based on a mixture of both which in effect denies both.

The devil is very clever indeed.