Jesus and Commands

[GodsGrace]

The bible of course.

The holiness requirement is not fulfilled in righteousness. The only holiness that is possible is to enter into Christ and HIS righteousness. We put on Christ to approach God. So then Jesus alone fulfills the holiness requirement.

But we can operate at the much lower level of loving others as ourselves....and inherit life.

The difference is either ruling...or being ruled over.

In the army in order to be an officer...you need to go through extensive studies and a vetting process. Then you get a commission that gives you responsibility for the lives under your care.

But a soldier has none of these responsibilities. He just does as he's told.

So it is with the holy....and the righteous.

The next age will fully embody these things.

I can't remember these terms from the bible.
You mean the CONCEPT is from the bible??
I like the idea of putting on Christ myself.
Mathew 22:11-14
Romans 13:14
Galatians 3:27; 4:21
Galatians 2:19-21

God sees His Son and not our sinful selves.
Or, we could say that He loves us through His Son.

 

[GodsGrace]

There were righteous people in the OT.

I learned that those in the O.T. were righteous of their own acts done in the faith they had in God.

In the N.T. we receive our righteousness from Jesus, even though we are required to keep the laws. The laws are never abolished in any Covenant.

 

[Episkopos]

I can't remember these terms from the bible.
You mean the CONCEPT is from the bible??
I like the idea of putting on Christ myself.
Mathew 22:11-14
Romans 13:14
Galatians 3:27; 4:21
Galatians 2:19-21

God sees His Son and not our sinful selves.
Or, we could say that He loves us through His Son.

God is love and He is merciful. As such He doesn't need to be blinded to our true condition. He knows what we are. He knows our limitations.

God only sees His Son in us as we enter into His perfect life. There is no such thing as a pretend holiness...or a pretend purity. There is no sinful holiness either. These are all religious inventions that were adopted by a credulous religious people who don't know the Lord.

He just loves us.

But His desire is that we enter into the life of His Son....so we can learn of Him....and be like Him. We can learn to also love as He loves...then we will be able to live with Him forever.

 

[GodsGrace]

Righteousness: Doing what is right in the sight of God....not necessarily WITH God. That's a mixture.

We can do things, as Christians, to be pleasing to God...which is good. But God judges whether they are truly righteous or not. Religious people tend to do things for the wrong reasons. A lot of self-interest there. (as in...I'm doing this because I'm so saved....etc)

Religion wants a guarantee that the adherents to it are "right with God" based on their beliefs, rituals and customs. But righteousness is simpler than that. AND far more difficult...if we are talking about the righteousness of God.

So then religion is unable to do either righteous requirement so it makes a false righteousness based on a mixture of both which in effect denies both.

The devil is very clever indeed.

Sure.
What's easier:
To tell someone they should go to church every week and they'll be saved...
or
To tell someone they must give their heart to God?

The first one is easier but more difficult.
The second one is more difficult but easier.

(everything is difficult without the Holy Spirit, and V V)

 

[Nancy]

Nancy, I had to go back and refresh my memory.

We were talking about this verse back in October:

John 15:16
16“You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

Jesus is speaking to the Apostles. He chose THEM so that they could bear fruit.
Not the fruit of the Holy Spirit...

In Mathew 28:19-20, Jesus tell His Apostles to go into all the world and make disciples; baptizing them and teaching them all that Jesus had taught the Apostles to observe.

Also, in Mathew 4:18 Jesus tells Simon Peter and Andrew that He will make them fishers of men.

In John 15:2 we're told that God will prune His vine so that it could produce good fruit, this would be a good life with good character befitting a Christian.

When I put all of the above together, I believe the good fruit is the people that the Apostles will convert to Christianity so that they could join in the Kingdom of God on earth and make it a better place as Jesus meant it to be.

Yes, agreed he was speaking to the Apostles but, the great commission should continue until He returns. Matthew 28:20 "Teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I have given you. And be sure of this: I am with you always, even to the end of the age." I totally forgot about this post! So, I believe Jesus commanded every disciple of His to do this.

 

[Episkopos]

I learned that those in the O.T. were righteous of their own acts done in the faith they had in God.

In the N.T. we receive our righteousness from Jesus, even though we are required to keep the laws. The laws are never abolished in any Covenant.

Yes...to the first. Actually we also have our own righteousness. We don't receive OUR righteousness from Jesus. We receive HIS righteousness by abiding in Him. It is like going inside a tank. By ourselves bullets kill us. But in the tank...I take on the bulletproof nature of the tank. So as long as I am in the tank (army tank) I am bulletproof.

So then as long as I (or anyone) abide INSIDE Christ I am the righteousness (the light) of God in this world. The enemy's defenses are vulnerable to a tank attack!

 

[GodsGrace]

God is love and He is merciful. As such He doesn't need to be blinded to our true condition. He knows what we are. He knows our limitations.

God only sees His Son in us as we enter into His perfect life. There is no such thing as a pretend holiness...or a pretend purity. There is no sinful holiness either. These are all religious inventions that were adopted by a credulous religious people who don't know the Lord.

He just loves us.

But His desire is that we enter into the life of His Son....so we can learn of Him....and be like Him. We can learn to also love as He loves...then we will be able to live with Him forever.

LOL
Yes. God is not blinded.
But by putting on Christ, God sees us IN HIS SON...as you said but in a different way.

God knows we sin and he sees all we do,,,but He sees our holiness through Jesus.
No pretend anything --- God sees all.

Just today in a bible study we were speaking about loving our enemies. Even the heathen could love their friends. We said that we have to pray for our enemies and BLESS them --- Yes. God sees all.

 

[faithfulness]

Yes...to the first. Actually we also have our own righteousness. We don't receive OUR righteousness from Jesus. We receive HIS righteousness by abiding in Him. It is like going inside a tank. By ourselves bullets kill us. But in the tank...I take on the bulletproof nature of the tank. So as long as I am in the tank (army tank) I am bulletproof.

So then as long as I (or anyone) abide INSIDE Christ I am the righteousness (the light) of God in this world. The enemy's defenses are vulnerable to a tank attack!

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes...to the first. Actually we also have our own righteousness. We don't receive OUR righteousness from Jesus. We receive HIS righteousness by abiding in Him. It is like going inside a tank. By ourselves bullets kill us. But in the tank...I take on the bulletproof nature of the tank. So as long as I am in the tank (army tank) I am bulletproof.

So then as long as I (or anyone) abide INSIDE Christ I am the righteousness (the light) of God in this world. The enemy's defenses are vulnerable to a tank attack!

Agreed!

I like how you explain things.

Some say we don't have to do anything because Jesus has done it all.
You must know by now that I don't adhere to this thinking.
Believe and faith are action words.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, agreed he was speaking to the Apostles but, the great commission should continue until He returns. Matthew 28:20 "Teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I have given you. And be sure of this: I am with you always, even to the end of the age." I totally forgot about this post! So, I believe Jesus commanded every disciple of His to do this.

I agree that everyone (whoever can) should testify to God's existence and goodness and be a witness to His truths and teachings.

I do believe, though, that the Apostles and their modern counter-parts: Pastors, priests, etc. have the responsibility that the Apostles were given...it's up to them to study and teach the bible and what we're supposed to know in order to please God.

That's what discipleship is, as you know.
WE learn to be disciples and then we teach others how to be disciples.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

God is holy....and wholly living apart from His creation. As such it requires holiness to approach Him...not just righteousness.

There is a distinction to be made between righteousness (doing what is right) and holiness (perfect as He is perfect....pure as He is pure)

There is a human righteousness and then there is the righteousness of God...in they that walk in God's power and authority. The first will inherit life....and the second will inherit glory.

Scripture says either. Righteousness or holiness. Revelation 22:11. But, I like your idea of inheriting glory. I pointed that out in another thread when it was partially revealed to me through the Spirit, just not fully. What scriptures do you have that supports there is a difference? I'd like to hear that very much. Thanks.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

The 10 commandments DO require love to fulfill them...this is why the Mosaic Covenant failed --- Jesus had not come yet to leave us with the Holy Spirit and to teach us HOW to obey the commandments.

We know that will power does not work very well....
Would you agree?

But the Ten Commandments are part of the Mosaic Covenant. It is not all sacrifices and feasts that are fulfilled in Christ. Sin, itself, was conquered on the cross. Sin was the whole reason for the law. Do away with sin and the sin nature, and you virtually do away with the need for the law. We are given the Holy Spirit, as you said. By walking in the Spirit, we are not under the law. In other words, we do not need both.

As I said in another thread, if you obey the Ten Commandments, you do not fulfill the New Testament commands to believe on Jesus. But if we believe on Jesus, He gives us a new nature that naturally obeys and fulfills the Ten Commandments, even the fourth, because Jesus is our rest. He is the High Priest at the Throne of Grace. Grace is the hidden meaning behind the Sabbath. The Sabbath was instituted as a foreshadow of Grace.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I remember our conversations now...
I believe we agree on pretty much everything... the above sounds good.

Do you understand laws of righteousness to be laws that make us "right with God"?
(if followed).

The are called the laws of liberty in Scripture. Liberty from SIN. John 8:34-36. And how is that? The Holy Spirit.

Romans 8 describes it best. (Remember the Ten Commandments are the laws of sin and death. They are also called the ministry of (sin and ) death.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

2 Corinthians 3
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory.

 

[Episkopos]

Scripture says either. Righteousness or holiness. Revelation 22:11. But, I like your idea of inheriting glory. I pointed that out in another thread when it was partially revealed to me through the Spirit, just not fully. What scriptures do you have that supports there is a difference? I'd like to hear that very much. Thanks.

Rev. 22:11 is a key to understanding how God classifies humans. This is a big study.

People are often seen as righteous...based on their actions and character. All through both testaments. Even Gentiles.

The righteous are scarcely saved.The righteous walk in their own power. All the righteous sin.A righteous person lives in the heat that comes from the holy fire of God...but not in the fire itself.



But it almost never says they are holy. A saint is "sanctified"...holy. The saints are abundantly saved. The saints will rule with Christ. Holiness is IN the new man which is created in true holiness (and righteousness). The righteousness of God is IN holiness.There is not even a spot of sin in holiness. A saint abides in the presence of God. A saint lives in the fire of God.

That's a quick start.

The study goes right through the entire bible. I just made some points to look into.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

People are often seen as righteous...based on their actions and character. All through both testaments. Even Gentiles.

Abraham believed and acted on God's spoken word to him. Much like when the Holy Spirit speaks to us and we believe and act on a rhema. It produces the gift of faith, which sees the spoken word come to pass.

 

[Episkopos]

Abraham believed and acted on God's spoken word to him. Much like when the Holy Spirit speaks to us and we believe and act on a rhema. It produces the gift of faith, which sees the spoken word come to pass.

That's one way to be righteous for sure. But there are other ways...like the "good" Samaritan....who loved his neighbour with actions and character. Or like the Centurion who gave to the synagogue.

We must guard against only seeing one way. Jesus showed us more than one way to be righteous.

We of course are looking at going further into God by faith. But we must be careful not to limit God and others in this quest.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Or like the Centurion who gave to the synagogue.

I never read about him.

Of course, there are many ways. One is over-tipping.

 

[BobRyan]

Many will also say that Jesus came to FULFILL the law so that we have nothing more to do but believe in Christ. They believe fulfill means to do everything perfectly, as in fulfill a requirement, so that we don't have to.

I agree -- you do hear that a lot. But how many of those folks would dare to go on to say "so go ahead and take God's name in vain... we don't need to worry about that restriction or the penalty for being in rebellion on that point"... ?

And in Romans 8:4-8 the Law of God is "fulfilled" in us - who walk according to the Spirit.
In Romans 13 we are to "fulfill the Law" by loving our neighbor as ourself .

Why are "we" doing any "fulfill" at all - if the whole point is that we NOT fulfill it?

(I am preaching to the choir)

In any case I think we all agree that Christ never sinned - thus all agree He perfectly fulfilled the requirement that the Law demands. Like a person always going the speed limit and never violating it. He would be perfectly fulfilling the requirement - but that does not mean that the rest of us can drive like "speed demons" ... as they say.

It was a curse because it allowed man to see his evil...and one of the atonement theories is that Jesus died to kill the power of satan over man's nature,,,thus giving man the power over his sin nature.

Certainly it is true that through the Gospel we receive power to obey --whereas in our former lost state we were enslaved to sin.
Romans 8:4-12 says that the lost "do not submit to the Law of God - neither indeed CAN they". Some Christians get so mixed up on this topic that they claim that "lost condition" that Paul describes in Romans 8 -- for themselves as if it were a badge of honor instead of a call to accept the Gospel.

 

[Episkopos]

I never read about him.

Of course, there are many ways. One is over-tipping.

Cornelius...in Acts 10:22 ...a just man (righteous) who gave to the synagogue.

 

[BobRyan]

I never read about him.
.

Luke 7
2 Now a centurion had a servant who was sick and at the point of death, who was highly valued by him. 3 When the centurion heard about Jesus, he sent to him elders of the Jews, asking him to come and heal his servant. 4 And when they came to Jesus, they pleaded with him earnestly, saying, “He is worthy to have you do this for him, 5 for he loves our nation, and he is the one who built us our synagogue.”

or Acts 10