Jesus became Immortal
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Aunty Jane
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Were angels created to die? Were humans created to die? What is death? As the Scripture you quoted below establishes......sin is the only cause of death.
Were angels created immortal? Does immortal mean that they cannot die?
The Bible uses two different expressions.....”everlasting life” and “immortality”...they do not have the same meaning.
“Immortal” means that a being cannot die from any cause...it is defined as “the power of an indestructible life”....deathless. An immortal cannot be put out of existence, whereas a mortal human or angel can have everlasting life, as long as they maintain their obedience to their Creator as their rightful Sovereign Ruler.
The very fact that we are given choices proves that we have free will. Sin was a choice. We were not created to sin, which is why the penalty was so severe.
With the creation of sentient and intelligent creatures like angels and man, free will was given, as all are made “in God’s image”, possessing his attributes and qualities.....but does free will live comfortably with immortality? The answer is “NO”! A free willed being has the right of choice.....but they also have the responsibility to use their free will without taking free will away from others. Every sin committed on this planet is an abuse of free will....an imposing of someone’s will over someone else.
Sin is not without consequences, which God clearly stated right at the beginning.
Angels, as free willed beings, can sin by disobedience, just like we can, which is why the devil is portrayed as a fallen angel, who took a third of the angels with him in rebellion. He led that rebellion, which is why this whole problem had to be settled in heaven as well as on earth.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
What is “eternal life in Christ” when you examine the Scriptures to answer that question?
Is “eternal life” then immortality? It is when you understand that it is granted only to the elect. Those chosen to rule with Christ in heaven are granted immortality along with their King who gave his life for us.
All who make up the kingdom government, have lived and died as humans...including Jesus Christ.
If Jesus was an immortal before he came to earth, then he could not have died and offered a ransom to God on our behalf. But he clearly stated that he had “come down from heaven” and that he would “ascend to where he was before”.
Having proven faithful in his course “unto death”, Jesus was granted immortality, as will those who were chosen for rulership positions in the Kingdom. (Rev 20:6) They will also have proven faithful to their death, many of whom were martyred for their faith.
The “elect” or “chosen ones” are “bought from among mankind as firstfruits”, (Rev 14:1-5) but if there is a first harvest, then a second harvest was also expected.
Who are in that second harvest? Since the Kingdom has a purpose, and it was designed to bring us back to God during a thousand years of damage control and restoration, the ones chosen for rulership positions will also be priests to guide redeemed mankind in their worship and to restore the sinless perfection that Adam and his wife once possessed. Sin prevented them from passing on that perfection to their children...instead, sin has eaten away at mankind for thousands of years to the situation where we have reached the point of no return under man’s corrupt rulership.
At the Tower of Babel God made a statement that applies to our day as well.....with the implementation of AI technology, “nothing they have in mind to do will be unattainable to them”.
If God does not step in soon, the human race will be doomed to the kind of slavery that cannot be overcome if AI is allowed to rule the rulers. The potential for disaster has already been established by those who created it.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
The elect will become like the angels possessing no natural cause of death....these powerful spirits do not have external means of life support, and so they can only have their lives taken by God himself. The Bible tells us that satan and his angels will end up in the same place where God consigns the “goats” who have failed to put faith in his ransom.....”the lake of fire”...which is a place of no return...death and hades Re cast there so it is not a literal place. It is a symbol of everlasting death. It isn’t “hell”.
The Bible is open to all kinds of interpretation, but it is clear that the “sons of God” have played a role in man’s existence from the beginning of creation.
When God was bringing creation into existence these “sons” were observing all that was being done, and at the successful conclusion were “shoutin for joy”. (Job 38:4-7)
Cherubs in the Bible are vastly different creatures to the ones portrayed in Catholic art.....rather than being helpless babies with wings, these angels are powerful guardians. And it states in Ezekiel that satan was a guardian stationed in the garden of Eden...not in so many words but the implication is unmistakable.
“Son of man, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him. . .:“You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering. . . .On the day that you were created they were prepared. You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked. You were blameless in your waysfrom the day you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you. Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I exposed you before kings, to feast their eyes on you.” (Ezekiel 28: 12-28 ESV)
The king of Tyre was like his father the devil....
This “anointed guardian cherub” was “created” not born, and he was “in Eden”. This is not a mere man but is referring to the spirit creature who made himself into the devil because he was “perfect in wisdom and beauty” until the day he decided that he wanted to be worshipped as a god himself.
How can Jesus be immortal when Life was granted him?
Show me a text that teaches you Jesus held immortality prior to his life.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
I’m sorry but I do not find your interpretation of these things to be accurate. The mythological ideas seem to be yours. You are trying to make the Scriptures say what they do not, whilst ignoring what they actually do say quite clearly. In Rev 12:7-12 , the one called “devil and satan” is identified as the “the original serpent” in Genesis.
You can ignore whatever you wish, and reinterpret God’s word, but your scenario does not gel with the entirety of Scripture. It is one story from start to finish.
Rebellion took place with an angel first.....a once faithful angel who abused his free will and saw an opportunity for worship with the creation of lower creatures of flesh. He did what James warned us about...
“Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.” (James 1:13-15 ESV)
This applied to all God’s sons.....both in heaven and on earth, as the Scripture in Ezekiel proves. Satan is a self made “god” who was given rulership over the earth to prove his claim to be the better god and ruler of mankind. (Luke 4:5-7; 1 John :19; 2 Cor 4:3-4)
Yes, the elect as “sons of the resurrection” are changed into spirit beings; “born again” in a new body, who will rule with their Lord in heaven, specially chosen by God individually and who, because of imperfect flesh, can fall away to sin and be replaced before their physical death. They are not foreordained to this role as individuals, but have to maintain their “calling”, “faithful to the death” in order to inherit immortal life in heaven....only then will they attain “divine nature”. It is the final number who are pre-determined, no matter who make up the required number at the end. It’s God’s choice as to who goes to heaven....the majority of mankind will live on earth as God first intended. (Rev 21:2-4) They will be ruled by the best government the human race has ever had.....bringing us back to everlasting life in paradise, where we were created to live in the first place.
Since it's clear you're unable to identify the symbols in Revelation 12, why do you keep returning to it?
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
That is just the point....if Jesus was an immortal, prior to his human life, he could not have died to offer to God a ransom for the human race.
You might have thought you did, but you all you did was twist it to your way of thinking. Who said you have to be right? You are entitled to interpret Scripture any way you choose, but don’t run away with the idea that you can’t be wrong.
What if it’s you who can’t interpret the symbols? They plainly say what they say...
He did not exist prior to receiving life, Jane, that’s the whole point of him being the firstfruits of those who sleep. He was the first to receive life in himself.
You can’t separate eternal life and immortality, One speaks to quality, the other to duration.
Well, I've asked you to interpret the symbol of the red dragon, and you resist. Until you can understand the historical fulfillment of Revelation 12 you will continue to use it incorrectly.
And you still won't answer Genesis 3:1 which still sits you with to answer.
If you think you can contextually answer all that has been dealt with in Ezekiel 28 in that thread I welcome you to try.
Unlocking Ezekiel 28
Agreed. I think you missed on this bit. I find the "guardian cherub" of v.14 to be a callback to the story in Genesis 3, where God stationed a cherub with a flaming sword at the entrance of Eden, to prevent Adam and Eve from returning to the Garden. That doesn't come out of the blue, as the...
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All you need to do Jane is use your critical thinking skills and ask the right questions to receive the right answers.
You and I both know that Revelation 12 is highly symbolic and describes historical events on earth spanning from the time of your Lord up to the present and beyond.
Revelation 12 is NOT your ventriloquist origin story as you want it be and you also know there is not a verse in the Bible to support that story.
The sooner you're honest with yourself, the sooner you can begin to truly learn from the Scriptures you’ve been misinterpreting in this forum for years.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Trying to reason with one who their fingers in their ears is pointless... I have said all I am going to....
Believe whatever you wish....we are all free to do that, and badgering people endlessly does not win them over.
No one comes to the son unless it it granted by the Father (John 6:44; 65).....if you understand that, have your say and let it be.....God will do the rest.....no one can be Bible bashed into the truth. OK?
Believe whatever you wish....we are all free to do that, and badgering people endlessly does not win them over.
No one comes to the son unless it it granted by the Father (John 6:44; 65).....if you understand that, have your say and let it be.....God will do the rest.....no one can be Bible bashed into the truth. OK?
The reason people come to the Father is because He alone placed life in the Son, it wasn’t there beforehand. After all, how can life be granted if it already existed?
When Jesus was clothed with immortality, he became eternal.
Do you understand this, Jane? God will grant you life because it isn’t inherently yours, it belongs to the Lord, who received it from His Father.
I am quite certain Peter had tremendous joy in this life. He, as all in Christ, will see greater things than this, of course, but His promises are presently fulfilled. Jesus was always immortal, Spirit, and powerful. He was never at risk of corruption. His life has been according to plan from start to finish, indeed, His very nature is that He is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. He has no weakness but what He embraces by His choice according to His will. His joy and power are available to us today, they just look different than most expect because so many lies divert our course away from Him by design.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Pure 14 karat B S.
The Father calls Jesus God.
GOD DOES NOT HAVE A BEGINNING.
Hebrews 1
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Stop perverting the deity of Jesus.
You prey on the unlearned.
That is spiritual sickness.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Deflect as much as you can.
Your deal is gross error.
You deny Jesus , and then hide from the word of God.
You are as false as they come.
Any bible hound can smell you a mile off.
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Are you serious?
"But of the Son he says, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.'" Hebrews 1:8
And
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.” Heb 1:9.
I'm not looking to get into a debate with someone who quotes Hebrews 1:8
Engage with the OP if you wish to contribute, otherwise, feel free to move on to more agreeable topics.
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