Jesus Christ The Great I AM

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

ByGraceThroughFaith

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2021
2,870
852
113
Dudley
trinitystudies.org
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” - John 8:58

What did Jesus mean by these words, that caused the Jews to want to stone Him to death, which would have been because they considered His words, blasphemy? It would be the same reason why they wanted to stone Him later, in John chapter 10, “The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone you not; but for blasphemy; and because that you, being a man, make yourself God” (verse 33). As they did in 5:18, “This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God”. What the Jews meant here by “ισον”, was that Jesus was here saying that there is no “essential difference” between Himself and His Father, as in 10:33. Though functionally, the Father was “greater” than Jesus during His Incarnation. (Luke 24:26; John 14:28; 17:5; Phil. 2:5-11; Heb. 2:7-9)

To get an understanding of what Jesus says in John 8:58, that got the Jews so enraged, we have to go to what was said in the Greek. "πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί", literally, "before Abraham came into existence, I AM". The contrast between, " γενέσθαι" (was), that is, "began to be" of Abraham; and " ἐγὼ εἰμί" the "timeless existence" of Jesus, is very important. The Jews in had accused Jesus of making Himself to be "greater" than Abraham, and that Abraham actually rejoiced to "see" Jesus, which the Jews could not fathom. Abraham, says Jesus, had a "beginning" as he was born in time; whereas He did not have any "beginning", as He has always existed, which is seen in the force of the words ἐγὼ εἰμί", which is in the present, continuance. But, Jesus' words are far more important as to what they meant to the Jews, than caused them to want to stone Him. They very clearly understood Jesus here to claim the Divine Name, "I AM" for Himself. The Jews understood Jesus to refer to the Book of Exodus, where Moses asks God for His Name, so that he could tell the children of Israel Who had sent him to them. To which God replied, "Eheyeh asher Eheyeh" (Exodus 3:14), which is best rendered into English as "I am who I am". Attempts to weaken these words to, "I will be who I will be", etc, are quite wrong.

The Greek version of the Old Testament, the Septuagint (LXX), which was completed some 150 years before the Birth of Jesus Christ, and carried out by the best Jewish scholars, who would have been experts in both Hebrew and Greek, render the Hebrew of Exodus 3:14, by "Ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν", which literally has the meaning, "I am He Who Exists", or "I am the Eternal One". Which is the basis of the Name of God in Hebrew, "YHWH". The LXX was the main Old Testament version that was used by the early Christians, though so who were more learned, used the Hebrew, like the scholar Jerome. Because the Christians made use of the LXX, the Jews in the 2nd century made their own Greek versions of the Old Testament. The first was done by Aquila in the first half of this century. And then towards the end of this century, another was made by Theodotion. Both these versions have rendered the Hebrew, "Eheyeh asher Eheyeh", in Greek “εσομαι (ὃς) εσομαι”, which is the future of “εἰμι”, “I will be Who I will be”. This was done not because they were being more faithful to the Hebrew, but, because it was to counter the Christian use of this verse for the Deity of Jesus Christ, when used with John 8:58.

Exodus 3:14, as translated from the Dead Sea Scrolls, into English, reads: "And God said to [Moses, “I] am that I am.” And he said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I am has sent me to you.’ ” (Martin Abegg Jr., Peter Flint, Eugene Ulrich; The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible). The Jews also recognise this to be the best rendering of the Hebrew text, "Te true pronunciation of the name YHWH was never lost. Several early Greek writers of the Christian Church testify that the name was pronounced “Yahweh.” This is confirmed, at least for the vowel of the first syllable of the name, by the shorter form Yah, which is sometimes used in poetry (e.g., Ex. 15:2) and the -yahu or -yah that serves as the final syllable in very many Hebrew names. In the opinion of many scholars, YHWH is a verbal form of the root hwh, which is an older variant of the root hyh “to be.” Te vowel of the first syllable shows that the verb is used in the form of a future-present causative hiphʿil, and must therefore mean “He causes to be, He brings into existence.” The explanation of the name as given in Exodus 3:14, Eheyeh-Asher-Eheyeh, “I-Am-Who-I Am,” (Encyclopaedia Judaica). And, " And God said unto Moses: ‘I AM THAT I AM’; and He said: ‘Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: I AM hath sent me unto you.’" (The Jewish Publication Society of America, The Holy Scriptures according to the Masoretic Text ).

The Hebrew verb here is, “hâyâh (’ehyeh)” which is the imperfect, “to exist, to be”. The imperfect also denotes habitual or customary action –past, present, or future tense. It also denotes incomplete action, whether in the past, present, or future. In John 1:1 we read, “was the Word...was with God...was God”. This does not mean as in our English, that refers only to the past. Here the Greek for “was”, is “ἦν”, which is the imperfect of “εἰμι”, and like the Hebrew “hâyâh”, denotes incomplete action.

It is the same Hebrew imperfect verb “hâyâh”, used in verse 12, where most English translations read, “I will be with you”. Youngs Literal Translation reads, “I am with thee”, which is right. Alost all these English Versions that read, “I will be with you”, translate the same Hebrew in verse 14, “I am Who I am”, or, “I am that I am”. As we have seen, the LXX translates the Hebrew, “hâyâh”, with “ εἰμι”, which is the present tense, literally, “to be, to exist”. And therefore "Ἐγώ εἰμι” denotes, absolute existence.

It is quite wrong to conclude, as some do, that this verb is always used in the “future tense”. We have examples like Jeremiah 31:9, “They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am (ehyeh) a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.”, and Micah 7:1, “Woe is me! for I am (ehyeh) as when they have gathered the summer fruits, as the grape gleanings of the vintage: there is no cluster to eat: my soul desired the first ripe fruit.”, and, Job 11:4, “For thou hast said, My doctrine is pure, and I am (ehyeh) clean in thine eyes.”. In each case the verb “’ehyeh” is in the “present tense”.

In John's vision of Jesus Christ in Revelation chapter 1, we read Jesus' words to John, "Fear not; I am the first and the last: and He that lives, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive forevermore, Amen; and have the keys of hades and of death." (17-18). "ὁ ζῶν" (He that Lives), or literally, "The Living One", as in Exodus 3:14 in the Septuagint. On the words, "ὁ πρῶτος καὶ ὁ ἔσχατος" (The First and The Last), Dr J H Thayer, a Unitarian, says in his famous Greek lexicon, "the eternal one" (page 554), something that his own "theology" would never allow, as only Almighty God could ever be described as "Eternal", which he denied! In John's Gospel we have an interesting account of Jesus' arrest. "Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek you? They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus said unto them, I am (Ἐγώ εἰμι). And Judas also, who betrayed him, stood with them. As soon then as he had said unto them, I am (Ἐγώ εἰμι), they went backward, and fell to the ground." (18:4-6). Note, Jesus tells them in verse 5, "Ἐγώ εἰμι" (I AM), and when they heard this, they fell backwards. In the Gospels we read the account of the boat that the Disciples were on, was being tossed on the sea, and Jesus comes to them walking on the sea. " And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea. And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear. But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid" (Matthew 14:25-27; Mark 6:48-50; John 6:17-20). When Jesus says "it is I", the Greek is actually, " Ἐγώ εἰμι" (I AM), and this was enough assurance for the Disciples!

Jesus Christ IS The Great I AM.
 

Randy Kluth

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2020
7,770
2,425
113
Pacific NW
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” - John 8:58

What did Jesus mean by these words, that caused the Jews to want to stone Him to death, which would have been because they considered His words, blasphemy? It would be the same reason why they wanted to stone Him later, in John chapter 10, “The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone you not; but for blasphemy; and because that you, being a man, make yourself God” (verse 33). As they did in 5:18, “This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God”. What the Jews meant here by “ισον”, was that Jesus was here saying that there is no “essential difference” between Himself and His Father, as in 10:33. Though functionally, the Father was “greater” than Jesus during His Incarnation. (Luke 24:26; John 14:28; 17:5; Phil. 2:5-11; Heb. 2:7-9)

To get an understanding of what Jesus says in John 8:58, that got the Jews so enraged, we have to go to what was said in the Greek. "πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί", literally, "before Abraham came into existence, I AM". The contrast between, " γενέσθαι" (was), that is, "began to be" of Abraham; and " ἐγὼ εἰμί" the "timeless existence" of Jesus, is very important. The Jews in had accused Jesus of making Himself to be "greater" than Abraham, and that Abraham actually rejoiced to "see" Jesus, which the Jews could not fathom. Abraham, says Jesus, had a "beginning" as he was born in time; whereas He did not have any "beginning", as He has always existed, which is seen in the force of the words ἐγὼ εἰμί", which is in the present, continuance. But, Jesus' words are far more important as to what they meant to the Jews, than caused them to want to stone Him. They very clearly understood Jesus here to claim the Divine Name, "I AM" for Himself. The Jews understood Jesus to refer to the Book of Exodus, where Moses asks God for His Name, so that he could tell the children of Israel Who had sent him to them. To which God replied, "Eheyeh asher Eheyeh" (Exodus 3:14), which is best rendered into English as "I am who I am". Attempts to weaken these words to, "I will be who I will be", etc, are quite wrong.

The Greek version of the Old Testament, the Septuagint (LXX), which was completed some 150 years before the Birth of Jesus Christ, and carried out by the best Jewish scholars, who would have been experts in both Hebrew and Greek, render the Hebrew of Exodus 3:14, by "Ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν", which literally has the meaning, "I am He Who Exists", or "I am the Eternal One". Which is the basis of the Name of God in Hebrew, "YHWH". The LXX was the main Old Testament version that was used by the early Christians, though so who were more learned, used the Hebrew, like the scholar Jerome. Because the Christians made use of the LXX, the Jews in the 2nd century made their own Greek versions of the Old Testament. The first was done by Aquila in the first half of this century. And then towards the end of this century, another was made by Theodotion. Both these versions have rendered the Hebrew, "Eheyeh asher Eheyeh", in Greek “εσομαι (ὃς) εσομαι”, which is the future of “εἰμι”, “I will be Who I will be”. This was done not because they were being more faithful to the Hebrew, but, because it was to counter the Christian use of this verse for the Deity of Jesus Christ, when used with John 8:58.

Exodus 3:14, as translated from the Dead Sea Scrolls, into English, reads: "And God said to [Moses, “I] am that I am.” And he said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I am has sent me to you.’ ” (Martin Abegg Jr., Peter Flint, Eugene Ulrich; The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible). The Jews also recognise this to be the best rendering of the Hebrew text, "Te true pronunciation of the name YHWH was never lost. Several early Greek writers of the Christian Church testify that the name was pronounced “Yahweh.” This is confirmed, at least for the vowel of the first syllable of the name, by the shorter form Yah, which is sometimes used in poetry (e.g., Ex. 15:2) and the -yahu or -yah that serves as the final syllable in very many Hebrew names. In the opinion of many scholars, YHWH is a verbal form of the root hwh, which is an older variant of the root hyh “to be.” Te vowel of the first syllable shows that the verb is used in the form of a future-present causative hiphʿil, and must therefore mean “He causes to be, He brings into existence.” The explanation of the name as given in Exodus 3:14, Eheyeh-Asher-Eheyeh, “I-Am-Who-I Am,” (Encyclopaedia Judaica). And, " And God said unto Moses: ‘I AM THAT I AM’; and He said: ‘Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: I AM hath sent me unto you.’" (The Jewish Publication Society of America, The Holy Scriptures according to the Masoretic Text ).

The Hebrew verb here is, “hâyâh (’ehyeh)” which is the imperfect, “to exist, to be”. The imperfect also denotes habitual or customary action –past, present, or future tense. It also denotes incomplete action, whether in the past, present, or future. In John 1:1 we read, “was the Word...was with God...was God”. This does not mean as in our English, that refers only to the past. Here the Greek for “was”, is “ἦν”, which is the imperfect of “εἰμι”, and like the Hebrew “hâyâh”, denotes incomplete action.

It is the same Hebrew imperfect verb “hâyâh”, used in verse 12, where most English translations read, “I will be with you”. Youngs Literal Translation reads, “I am with thee”, which is right. Alost all these English Versions that read, “I will be with you”, translate the same Hebrew in verse 14, “I am Who I am”, or, “I am that I am”. As we have seen, the LXX translates the Hebrew, “hâyâh”, with “ εἰμι”, which is the present tense, literally, “to be, to exist”. And therefore "Ἐγώ εἰμι” denotes, absolute existence.

It is quite wrong to conclude, as some do, that this verb is always used in the “future tense”. We have examples like Jeremiah 31:9, “They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am (ehyeh) a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.”, and Micah 7:1, “Woe is me! for I am (ehyeh) as when they have gathered the summer fruits, as the grape gleanings of the vintage: there is no cluster to eat: my soul desired the first ripe fruit.”, and, Job 11:4, “For thou hast said, My doctrine is pure, and I am (ehyeh) clean in thine eyes.”. In each case the verb “’ehyeh” is in the “present tense”.

In John's vision of Jesus Christ in Revelation chapter 1, we read Jesus' words to John, "Fear not; I am the first and the last: and He that lives, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive forevermore, Amen; and have the keys of hades and of death." (17-18). "ὁ ζῶν" (He that Lives), or literally, "The Living One", as in Exodus 3:14 in the Septuagint. On the words, "ὁ πρῶτος καὶ ὁ ἔσχατος" (The First and The Last), Dr J H Thayer, a Unitarian, says in his famous Greek lexicon, "the eternal one" (page 554), something that his own "theology" would never allow, as only Almighty God could ever be described as "Eternal", which he denied! In John's Gospel we have an interesting account of Jesus' arrest. "Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek you? They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus said unto them, I am (Ἐγώ εἰμι). And Judas also, who betrayed him, stood with them. As soon then as he had said unto them, I am (Ἐγώ εἰμι), they went backward, and fell to the ground." (18:4-6). Note, Jesus tells them in verse 5, "Ἐγώ εἰμι" (I AM), and when they heard this, they fell backwards. In the Gospels we read the account of the boat that the Disciples were on, was being tossed on the sea, and Jesus comes to them walking on the sea. " And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea. And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear. But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid" (Matthew 14:25-27; Mark 6:48-50; John 6:17-20). When Jesus says "it is I", the Greek is actually, " Ἐγώ εἰμι" (I AM), and this was enough assurance for the Disciples!

Jesus Christ IS The Great I AM.

I thought this so interesting that I'm running this by my brother, who studies the Bible languages. I'll try to let you know his thoughts.
 

Nancy

Well-Known Member
Apr 30, 2018
16,820
25,481
113
Buffalo, Ny
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” - John 8:58

What did Jesus mean by these words, that caused the Jews to want to stone Him to death, which would have been because they considered His words, blasphemy? It would be the same reason why they wanted to stone Him later, in John chapter 10, “The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone you not; but for blasphemy; and because that you, being a man, make yourself God” (verse 33). As they did in 5:18, “This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God”. What the Jews meant here by “ισον”, was that Jesus was here saying that there is no “essential difference” between Himself and His Father, as in 10:33. Though functionally, the Father was “greater” than Jesus during His Incarnation. (Luke 24:26; John 14:28; 17:5; Phil. 2:5-11; Heb. 2:7-9)

To get an understanding of what Jesus says in John 8:58, that got the Jews so enraged, we have to go to what was said in the Greek. "πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί", literally, "before Abraham came into existence, I AM". The contrast between, " γενέσθαι" (was), that is, "began to be" of Abraham; and " ἐγὼ εἰμί" the "timeless existence" of Jesus, is very important. The Jews in had accused Jesus of making Himself to be "greater" than Abraham, and that Abraham actually rejoiced to "see" Jesus, which the Jews could not fathom. Abraham, says Jesus, had a "beginning" as he was born in time; whereas He did not have any "beginning", as He has always existed, which is seen in the force of the words ἐγὼ εἰμί", which is in the present, continuance. But, Jesus' words are far more important as to what they meant to the Jews, than caused them to want to stone Him. They very clearly understood Jesus here to claim the Divine Name, "I AM" for Himself. The Jews understood Jesus to refer to the Book of Exodus, where Moses asks God for His Name, so that he could tell the children of Israel Who had sent him to them. To which God replied, "Eheyeh asher Eheyeh" (Exodus 3:14), which is best rendered into English as "I am who I am". Attempts to weaken these words to, "I will be who I will be", etc, are quite wrong.

The Greek version of the Old Testament, the Septuagint (LXX), which was completed some 150 years before the Birth of Jesus Christ, and carried out by the best Jewish scholars, who would have been experts in both Hebrew and Greek, render the Hebrew of Exodus 3:14, by "Ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν", which literally has the meaning, "I am He Who Exists", or "I am the Eternal One". Which is the basis of the Name of God in Hebrew, "YHWH". The LXX was the main Old Testament version that was used by the early Christians, though so who were more learned, used the Hebrew, like the scholar Jerome. Because the Christians made use of the LXX, the Jews in the 2nd century made their own Greek versions of the Old Testament. The first was done by Aquila in the first half of this century. And then towards the end of this century, another was made by Theodotion. Both these versions have rendered the Hebrew, "Eheyeh asher Eheyeh", in Greek “εσομαι (ὃς) εσομαι”, which is the future of “εἰμι”, “I will be Who I will be”. This was done not because they were being more faithful to the Hebrew, but, because it was to counter the Christian use of this verse for the Deity of Jesus Christ, when used with John 8:58.

Exodus 3:14, as translated from the Dead Sea Scrolls, into English, reads: "And God said to [Moses, “I] am that I am.” And he said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I am has sent me to you.’ ” (Martin Abegg Jr., Peter Flint, Eugene Ulrich; The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible). The Jews also recognise this to be the best rendering of the Hebrew text, "Te true pronunciation of the name YHWH was never lost. Several early Greek writers of the Christian Church testify that the name was pronounced “Yahweh.” This is confirmed, at least for the vowel of the first syllable of the name, by the shorter form Yah, which is sometimes used in poetry (e.g., Ex. 15:2) and the -yahu or -yah that serves as the final syllable in very many Hebrew names. In the opinion of many scholars, YHWH is a verbal form of the root hwh, which is an older variant of the root hyh “to be.” Te vowel of the first syllable shows that the verb is used in the form of a future-present causative hiphʿil, and must therefore mean “He causes to be, He brings into existence.” The explanation of the name as given in Exodus 3:14, Eheyeh-Asher-Eheyeh, “I-Am-Who-I Am,” (Encyclopaedia Judaica). And, " And God said unto Moses: ‘I AM THAT I AM’; and He said: ‘Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: I AM hath sent me unto you.’" (The Jewish Publication Society of America, The Holy Scriptures according to the Masoretic Text ).

The Hebrew verb here is, “hâyâh (’ehyeh)” which is the imperfect, “to exist, to be”. The imperfect also denotes habitual or customary action –past, present, or future tense. It also denotes incomplete action, whether in the past, present, or future. In John 1:1 we read, “was the Word...was with God...was God”. This does not mean as in our English, that refers only to the past. Here the Greek for “was”, is “ἦν”, which is the imperfect of “εἰμι”, and like the Hebrew “hâyâh”, denotes incomplete action.

It is the same Hebrew imperfect verb “hâyâh”, used in verse 12, where most English translations read, “I will be with you”. Youngs Literal Translation reads, “I am with thee”, which is right. Alost all these English Versions that read, “I will be with you”, translate the same Hebrew in verse 14, “I am Who I am”, or, “I am that I am”. As we have seen, the LXX translates the Hebrew, “hâyâh”, with “ εἰμι”, which is the present tense, literally, “to be, to exist”. And therefore "Ἐγώ εἰμι” denotes, absolute existence.

It is quite wrong to conclude, as some do, that this verb is always used in the “future tense”. We have examples like Jeremiah 31:9, “They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am (ehyeh) a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.”, and Micah 7:1, “Woe is me! for I am (ehyeh) as when they have gathered the summer fruits, as the grape gleanings of the vintage: there is no cluster to eat: my soul desired the first ripe fruit.”, and, Job 11:4, “For thou hast said, My doctrine is pure, and I am (ehyeh) clean in thine eyes.”. In each case the verb “’ehyeh” is in the “present tense”.

In John's vision of Jesus Christ in Revelation chapter 1, we read Jesus' words to John, "Fear not; I am the first and the last: and He that lives, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive forevermore, Amen; and have the keys of hades and of death." (17-18). "ὁ ζῶν" (He that Lives), or literally, "The Living One", as in Exodus 3:14 in the Septuagint. On the words, "ὁ πρῶτος καὶ ὁ ἔσχατος" (The First and The Last), Dr J H Thayer, a Unitarian, says in his famous Greek lexicon, "the eternal one" (page 554), something that his own "theology" would never allow, as only Almighty God could ever be described as "Eternal", which he denied! In John's Gospel we have an interesting account of Jesus' arrest. "Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek you? They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus said unto them, I am (Ἐγώ εἰμι). And Judas also, who betrayed him, stood with them. As soon then as he had said unto them, I am (Ἐγώ εἰμι), they went backward, and fell to the ground." (18:4-6). Note, Jesus tells them in verse 5, "Ἐγώ εἰμι" (I AM), and when they heard this, they fell backwards. In the Gospels we read the account of the boat that the Disciples were on, was being tossed on the sea, and Jesus comes to them walking on the sea. " And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea. And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear. But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid" (Matthew 14:25-27; Mark 6:48-50; John 6:17-20). When Jesus says "it is I", the Greek is actually, " Ἐγώ εἰμι" (I AM), and this was enough assurance for the Disciples!

Jesus Christ IS The Great I AM.


Hello @ByGraceThroughFaith , and welcome to CB.
Loved your post...lots to digest for me all at once but, will re-read.
God bless,
nancy
 
  • Like
Reactions: ByGraceThroughFaith

Michiah-Imla

Well-Known Member
Oct 24, 2020
6,165
3,287
113
Northeast USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The only thing that Jesus expressly told others “to find the meaning of” was this:

Matthew 9:13
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

John 8:58 is simple to understand and requires no “in depth” studying of ancient languages.

Christ is from everlasting; as the scripture says:

Micah 5:2
But thou, Beth-lehem Ephratah... out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Christ was simply reiterating the above when he said “I am”.
 

ChristisGod

Well-Known Member
Aug 15, 2020
6,908
3,859
113
64
California
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” - John 8:58

What did Jesus mean by these words, that caused the Jews to want to stone Him to death, which would have been because they considered His words, blasphemy? It would be the same reason why they wanted to stone Him later, in John chapter 10, “The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone you not; but for blasphemy; and because that you, being a man, make yourself God” (verse 33). As they did in 5:18, “This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God”. What the Jews meant here by “ισον”, was that Jesus was here saying that there is no “essential difference” between Himself and His Father, as in 10:33. Though functionally, the Father was “greater” than Jesus during His Incarnation. (Luke 24:26; John 14:28; 17:5; Phil. 2:5-11; Heb. 2:7-9)

To get an understanding of what Jesus says in John 8:58, that got the Jews so enraged, we have to go to what was said in the Greek. "πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί", literally, "before Abraham came into existence, I AM". The contrast between, " γενέσθαι" (was), that is, "began to be" of Abraham; and " ἐγὼ εἰμί" the "timeless existence" of Jesus, is very important. The Jews in had accused Jesus of making Himself to be "greater" than Abraham, and that Abraham actually rejoiced to "see" Jesus, which the Jews could not fathom. Abraham, says Jesus, had a "beginning" as he was born in time; whereas He did not have any "beginning", as He has always existed, which is seen in the force of the words ἐγὼ εἰμί", which is in the present, continuance. But, Jesus' words are far more important as to what they meant to the Jews, than caused them to want to stone Him. They very clearly understood Jesus here to claim the Divine Name, "I AM" for Himself. The Jews understood Jesus to refer to the Book of Exodus, where Moses asks God for His Name, so that he could tell the children of Israel Who had sent him to them. To which God replied, "Eheyeh asher Eheyeh" (Exodus 3:14), which is best rendered into English as "I am who I am". Attempts to weaken these words to, "I will be who I will be", etc, are quite wrong.

The Greek version of the Old Testament, the Septuagint (LXX), which was completed some 150 years before the Birth of Jesus Christ, and carried out by the best Jewish scholars, who would have been experts in both Hebrew and Greek, render the Hebrew of Exodus 3:14, by "Ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν", which literally has the meaning, "I am He Who Exists", or "I am the Eternal One". Which is the basis of the Name of God in Hebrew, "YHWH". The LXX was the main Old Testament version that was used by the early Christians, though so who were more learned, used the Hebrew, like the scholar Jerome. Because the Christians made use of the LXX, the Jews in the 2nd century made their own Greek versions of the Old Testament. The first was done by Aquila in the first half of this century. And then towards the end of this century, another was made by Theodotion. Both these versions have rendered the Hebrew, "Eheyeh asher Eheyeh", in Greek “εσομαι (ὃς) εσομαι”, which is the future of “εἰμι”, “I will be Who I will be”. This was done not because they were being more faithful to the Hebrew, but, because it was to counter the Christian use of this verse for the Deity of Jesus Christ, when used with John 8:58.

Exodus 3:14, as translated from the Dead Sea Scrolls, into English, reads: "And God said to [Moses, “I] am that I am.” And he said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I am has sent me to you.’ ” (Martin Abegg Jr., Peter Flint, Eugene Ulrich; The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible). The Jews also recognise this to be the best rendering of the Hebrew text, "Te true pronunciation of the name YHWH was never lost. Several early Greek writers of the Christian Church testify that the name was pronounced “Yahweh.” This is confirmed, at least for the vowel of the first syllable of the name, by the shorter form Yah, which is sometimes used in poetry (e.g., Ex. 15:2) and the -yahu or -yah that serves as the final syllable in very many Hebrew names. In the opinion of many scholars, YHWH is a verbal form of the root hwh, which is an older variant of the root hyh “to be.” Te vowel of the first syllable shows that the verb is used in the form of a future-present causative hiphʿil, and must therefore mean “He causes to be, He brings into existence.” The explanation of the name as given in Exodus 3:14, Eheyeh-Asher-Eheyeh, “I-Am-Who-I Am,” (Encyclopaedia Judaica). And, " And God said unto Moses: ‘I AM THAT I AM’; and He said: ‘Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: I AM hath sent me unto you.’" (The Jewish Publication Society of America, The Holy Scriptures according to the Masoretic Text ).

The Hebrew verb here is, “hâyâh (’ehyeh)” which is the imperfect, “to exist, to be”. The imperfect also denotes habitual or customary action –past, present, or future tense. It also denotes incomplete action, whether in the past, present, or future. In John 1:1 we read, “was the Word...was with God...was God”. This does not mean as in our English, that refers only to the past. Here the Greek for “was”, is “ἦν”, which is the imperfect of “εἰμι”, and like the Hebrew “hâyâh”, denotes incomplete action.

It is the same Hebrew imperfect verb “hâyâh”, used in verse 12, where most English translations read, “I will be with you”. Youngs Literal Translation reads, “I am with thee”, which is right. Alost all these English Versions that read, “I will be with you”, translate the same Hebrew in verse 14, “I am Who I am”, or, “I am that I am”. As we have seen, the LXX translates the Hebrew, “hâyâh”, with “ εἰμι”, which is the present tense, literally, “to be, to exist”. And therefore "Ἐγώ εἰμι” denotes, absolute existence.

It is quite wrong to conclude, as some do, that this verb is always used in the “future tense”. We have examples like Jeremiah 31:9, “They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am (ehyeh) a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.”, and Micah 7:1, “Woe is me! for I am (ehyeh) as when they have gathered the summer fruits, as the grape gleanings of the vintage: there is no cluster to eat: my soul desired the first ripe fruit.”, and, Job 11:4, “For thou hast said, My doctrine is pure, and I am (ehyeh) clean in thine eyes.”. In each case the verb “’ehyeh” is in the “present tense”.

In John's vision of Jesus Christ in Revelation chapter 1, we read Jesus' words to John, "Fear not; I am the first and the last: and He that lives, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive forevermore, Amen; and have the keys of hades and of death." (17-18). "ὁ ζῶν" (He that Lives), or literally, "The Living One", as in Exodus 3:14 in the Septuagint. On the words, "ὁ πρῶτος καὶ ὁ ἔσχατος" (The First and The Last), Dr J H Thayer, a Unitarian, says in his famous Greek lexicon, "the eternal one" (page 554), something that his own "theology" would never allow, as only Almighty God could ever be described as "Eternal", which he denied! In John's Gospel we have an interesting account of Jesus' arrest. "Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek you? They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus said unto them, I am (Ἐγώ εἰμι). And Judas also, who betrayed him, stood with them. As soon then as he had said unto them, I am (Ἐγώ εἰμι), they went backward, and fell to the ground." (18:4-6). Note, Jesus tells them in verse 5, "Ἐγώ εἰμι" (I AM), and when they heard this, they fell backwards. In the Gospels we read the account of the boat that the Disciples were on, was being tossed on the sea, and Jesus comes to them walking on the sea. " And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea. And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear. But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid" (Matthew 14:25-27; Mark 6:48-50; John 6:17-20). When Jesus says "it is I", the Greek is actually, " Ἐγώ εἰμι" (I AM), and this was enough assurance for the Disciples!

Jesus Christ IS The Great I AM.
Amen ! He is the great I Am, the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the Lord God Almighty !
 

ChristisGod

Well-Known Member
Aug 15, 2020
6,908
3,859
113
64
California
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
These passages in Revelation make it clear that Jesus is God. Remember it is Jesus in the NT who is Coming back to earth that every eye will see. It was Jesus who was pierced on the cross for our sins. John is clearly once again calling Jesus God!!!!!!! The Coming and the coming in the clouds never refers to the Father in the NT but always to Jesus.

Revelation 1:7-8
7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
8 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."


We know from Revelation 1:8 that Alpha and Omega is the Almighty. So we can see that Christ is the Almighty


Revelation 1:17
17And when I saw Him, I fell at his feet as dead. And He laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I Am the first and the last:


We know from Revelation 1:17-18 that the first and the last is He that lives, was dead but is alive forevermore is Christ.


Revelation 2:8
"To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.


Revelation 22:12-13
12 "Behold, I Am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."


We know from Revelation 22:13 that the first and the last is the Alpha and Omega.

Revelation 22:16,20
16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."
20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I Am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

The immediate text clearly tells us that it was Jesus who was pierced and who is Coming in the clouds. This person coming in the clouds is God(Jesus-the Son of Man),

Daniel 7:13-14
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 "And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

Matthew 24:30-31
30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.

Matthew 26:64
Jesus said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."

1 Thessalonians 4:17-18
Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Revelation 1:7-8
7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
8 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

So we can see that the One who comes/is coming in the NT always refers to Jesus the Son of Man and NEVER refers to the Father. Therefore we can conclude it is Jesus who is coming whom John calls God the Alpha and Omega. This is sound biblical exegesis based on the context of the passage as well as the principle established in both Testaments on the One who is Coming in/with the Clouds- The Son of Man not the Father !!!!!!


Isaiah 44:6
Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
'I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.

Isaiah 48:12
"Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.


hope this helps !!!
 

DNB

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2019
4,199
1,370
113
Toronto
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
@ByGraceThroughFaith Jesus is NOT God, NOT YHWH, and NOT the great I AM. You allow your biased etymology to conjure up an absurd conclusion about a god-man, that not a single person throughout history has ever been able to fathom, and not a single authentic monotheist has ever been able to regard such an indignant notion, with any reverence or respect.

Your splitting of hairs on such a simple, and prevalently common verb conjugation as I am, indicts your theology. Even ayer asher ayer, has absolutely no intrinsic meaning outside of the context that it is used in, as equally does ego eimi. Every where throughout the Bible these expressions are used equally and emphatically for the common, to the despised, to the sublime.

Jesus is not allowed to use the most common verb conjugation in the history of languages, without him declaring himself to be God???? How pathetically absurd. The roman soldiers responded to Jesus' question 'who do you seek', with 'Jesus of Nazareth', what were you expecting him to reply? He said 'I am he' in complete conjunction with their inquiry, ...which, this specificity was meant to protect the others around him (I have not lost any that You gave me) . It cannot be sustained that the soldiers falling to the ground was based on, first, their recognition of YHWH (utterly absurd notion - pagan soldiers that well versed in Hebrew Scripture), and two, for any reason believing that he was God, because they beat him to a pulp, mocked him, scourged him, then crucified him only a few hours later.

Again, Jesus gave the soldiers the most natural response that entirely aligned with their inquisition, there is no need, for either the soldiers or the readers of the Gospel, to think out-of-the-box here, Yes, inexplicably the soldiers fell face down, this could be nothing more than they had heard that he was a miracle worker, and that they got spooked and feared retribution. But once they realized that he wasn't resisting, their audacity came back. For, again, all their actions that ensued after this moment, clearly displayed their lack of conviction of his deity. And again, there is not a single Roman Soldier that it can be assumed of, that would have comprehended the Tetragrammaton, for one, and two, made the allusion between Jesus' ordinary response, and such an esoteric Hebraic principle.
 
Last edited:

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2018
21,740
4,114
113
51
San Pedro
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I will say this because in Ezekiel 21:14 it says that the third time the sword shall do double damage and therefore I believe that every time the sword of the Spirit strikes, it will do damage to false doctrine in people's minds...

In John 8:24, Jesus is referencing back to Exodus 3:14 when He says what He says...

Exo 3:14, And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Jhn 8:24, I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM, ye shall die in your sins.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Helen

DNB

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2019
4,199
1,370
113
Toronto
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
@ByGraceThroughFaith as far as John 8:58 is concerned, there is no one greater than Abraham in the chronology and hierarchy of the Jewish religion, that any challenge or defiance towards Abraham's precedence or eminence, will get one stoned to death. And this is exactly what occurred to Korah and his entire family, for their defiance towards Moses. Therefore, considering that grammatically '...before Abraham was, YHWH..' makes absolutely no sense, we understand Jesus' expression to refer to his own pre-eminence and majesty that stands ahead of, or before, Abraham's. Although chronologically speaking, Abraham entered into the world before Jesus, according to the divine will of God, Jesus was the first-born of all creation. He was the grounds for God the Father to create the universe and all that it contains, and he is the summation of all things that God created, as we will see when the Father puts everything under his feet upon his return, to which Christ then finally submits himself to the Father, the one and only God (1 Corinthians 15:28).
 
Last edited:

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2018
21,740
4,114
113
51
San Pedro
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I will say this because in Ezekiel 21:14 it says that the third time the sword shall do double damage and therefore I believe that every time the sword of the Spirit strikes, it will do damage to false doctrine in people's minds...

In John 8:24, Jesus is referencing back to Exodus 3:14 when He says what He says...

Exo 3:14, And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Jhn 8:24, I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM, ye shall die in your sins.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Helen

ByGraceThroughFaith

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2021
2,870
852
113
Dudley
trinitystudies.org
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Jesus is NOT God, NOT YHWH, and NOT the great I AM

is that right? If Jesus Christ is not Almighty God, the Great YHWH, then He must be a created being! However, there are many passages in the Bible that clearly show Who Jesus Christ really is. Take, for example the Prophecy in Isaiah 9:6 for the Birth of Jesus Christ, "For a child is born unto us, a son hath been given unto us, and the government is placed on his shoulders; and his name is called, Wonderful, counsellor of the mighty God, of the everlasting Father, the prince of peace". (Isaac Leeser; Jewish Bible). You will note that the Hebrew, "’êl Gibbôr" is also used for Yahweh in chapter 10:21, "The remnant shall return, the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.". So, in both places it has to be translated, "The Mighty God". This can only be used for someone who is YHWH. In the Book of Numbers we read in 21:6, "So the YHWH sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and many of the people of Israel died.". The Apostle Paul says in 1 Corinthians 10:9, "Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents". Which is referring to the incident of Numbers, where it is YHWH Who sent the serpents to destroy the people. It would be blasphemy if Jesus Christ IS not YHWH, for Paul to have written what he did. In the Book of Revelation 22:12-13, Jesus Christ says of Himself, "And, behold, I Come quickly; and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.". In Isaiah 44:6, YHWH says of Himself, "“Thus says YHWH, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, YHWH of hosts: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.". Dr Joseph Thayer, who was a Greek scholar, but a Unitarian who denited that Jesus Christ is God, says this of the phrase, "the First and the Last", "πρῶτος καί ὁ ἔσχατος...the eternal One" (Greek lexicon). Which means that Jesus Christ is uncreated! How can Jesus Christ, if, as you say, that He is not God, YHWH, or the Great I AM, use language that is ONLY that of YHWH, and apply it for Himself? Interesting, that in Exodus 3:14, "God said to Moses, “ I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘ I AM has sent me to you.’”. The Greek LXX, which I have shown in the OP, translates, "Ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν", which literally has the meaning, "I am He Who Exists", or "I am the Eternal One", which is exactly what "πρῶτος καί ὁ ἔσχατος", used by Jesus for Himself, means!

You are arguing from your theology and not what the Bible actually teaches on Jesus Christ.
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2021
2,870
852
113
Dudley
trinitystudies.org
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
@ByGraceThroughFaith as far as John 8:58 is concerned, there is no one greater than Abraham in the chronology and hierarchy of the Jewish religion, that any challenge or defiance towards Abraham's precedence or eminence, will get one stoned to death. Therefore, considering that grammatically '...before Abraham was, YHWH..' makes absolutely no sense, we understand Jesus' expression to refer to his own pre-eminence and majesty that stands ahead of, or before, Abraham's. Although chronologically speaking, Abraham entered into the world before Jesus, according to the divine will of God, Jesus was the first-born of all creation. He was the grounds for God the Father to create the universe and all that it contains, and he is the summation of all things that God created, as we will see when the Father puts everything under his feet upon his return, to which Christ then finally submits himself to the Father, the one and only God (1 Corinthians 15:28).

are you a Jehovah's Witness?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Helen and Pearl

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2018
21,740
4,114
113
51
San Pedro
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
are you a Jehovah's Witness?
He will deny that he is a Jehovah's Witness but has similar beliefs to them.

He will also avoid any discussion of John 1:1-3 and John 1:14 as it seems he knows that these passages defeat his doctrine of the denial of Christ's Deity unless you hold to the New World Translation's rendering of it.

But in order to keep denying his roots, he has to keep a distance from that version in his discussion of these doctrines.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Helen

ByGraceThroughFaith

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2021
2,870
852
113
Dudley
trinitystudies.org
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2018
21,740
4,114
113
51
San Pedro
Faith
Christian
Country
United States

ByGraceThroughFaith

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2021
2,870
852
113
Dudley
trinitystudies.org
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Nevertheless, in the kjv, which they claim to accept, the LORD (Jehovah) is said to be the Mighty God in Psalms 50:1.

Although they have the KJV on their website, as they do the ASV, they say that this is only for study purposes, as they do not accept these Versions in places like John 1:1, etc
 
  • Like
Reactions: Pearl

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2018
21,740
4,114
113
51
San Pedro
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Although they have the KJV on their website, as they do the ASV, they say that this is only for study purposes, as they do not accept these Versions in places like John 1:1, etc
Yes, it's true that they hold the Watchtower Society to be on the level of the Holy Spirit and their writings to be on a par with scripture.

Which is why I will normally encourage a Jehovah's Witness to google "Watchtower false prophecies" so that their eyes might be opened to the fact that the Watchtower Society isn't infallible and is in fact very flawed.
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2021
2,870
852
113
Dudley
trinitystudies.org
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Which is why I will normally encourage a Jehovah's Witness to google "Watchtower false prophecies" so that their eyes might be opened to the fact that the Watchtower Society isn't infallible and is in fact very flawed.

They won't believe these as they are taught that only what the WT teaches is true, hence they are a cult.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Pearl and 101G