Jesus in his earthy ministry didn't know that Gentiles would become heirs.

[Enoch111]

@MatthewG I do strongly think God in Three Persons is very definitely present in the New Testament especially.

Looks like a lot of false doctrines and heresies are coming out of the woodwork today. If MatthewG does not believe in the Trinity, he has a very serious problem. What he is saying is that he does not believe God and Christ. And you are absolutely right. Even the OT presents the Trinity, but the NT has it embedded in the commandment to baptize believers (Mt 28:19) as well as other Scripture. It is clearly in view at the baptism of Christ Himself.

 

[MatthewG]

Looks like a lot of false doctrines and heresies are coming out of the woodwork today. If MatthewG does not believe in the Trinity, he has a very serious problem. What he is saying is that he does not believe God and Christ. And you are absolutely right. Even the OT presents the Trinity, but the NT has it embedded in the commandment to baptize believers (Mt 28:19) as well as other Scripture. It is clearly in view at the baptism of Christ Himself.

@farouk

You guys can believe that man-made doctrine if you desire. I’ve done a scriptural study on the way that I see God starting in the beginning, and I just can not seem to fit three persons in there. And if that makes me a heretic that is fine, but if you’re curious to know my view which I make very open and plain please click the spoiler bar.

Spoiler

No one has to submit or agree with my view but this is what I believe using scripture and doing the searching… it is meaty.

 

[Enoch111]

it is meaty.

Just like a carcass.

 

[MatthewG]

Meat of the word is what helps people grow I believe my friend and it takes time to cut, chew, and digest. Love you @Enoch111 take care.

 

[Pythagorean12]

John 1:4
Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come. What was the difference between then (at that moment) and when the hour came?

Reading the whole chapter provides proper context.

 

[kcnalp]

1 Timothy 3:16 (NKJV)
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

Philippians 2:5-8 (ESV)
5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

 

[Cooper]

Your dispute is with the scriptures not me. It clearly says neither the Son. While Jesus was on earth before his cruxifixction he asked his Father “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will” (Matthew 26:39) Jesus asked "IF" it is possible. This is not a dispute on if Jesus is God but about what Jesus knew while in the flesh as a man. He obviously set aside his divinity. I do not see this as any demotion of God.

Jesus, God with us (Immanuel) taught both as God and man. As a man he was thinking of the terrible suffering he would go through, but he knew it had to be done and there was no other way possible.

 

[Cooper]

Should we take an course in philosophy according to men in order to understand God and His Way?

And then of course when men have already decided what the answer is, where is room left for God to talk to them about it?

We don't need philosophy to know there are very brave people who subject themselves to death every time they go into a burning building or a lifeboat, to save people from certain death. Jesus the man chose death to the flesh, so that others shall live eternally.

 

[Cooper]

I do believe the Incarnation (John 1.14; 1 Timothy 3.16) strongly implies that He was fully God in all His earthly ministry; the fact that He chose not to exercise some of the prerogatives of deity is part of that.

YES!

 

[Cooper]

Mark 13:32 clearly says the Son didn't know. My assumption is that its possible he didn't know about the mystery either. If Mark 13:32 is the inspired word of God then why would we try to disagree or seek to dispute it. I'm not sure I understand why Christians find offense in the Son not knowing something the Father has not shared with Jesus as a man. I know Jesus is God but in his earthly ministry he took off his deity robe as he reached out to the Father several times.

We come back to the dual nature of Jesus.

 

[Enoch111]

...7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant...

We need to take a very close look at this translation and see if it is indeed valid (even if the Greek word literally means empty). According to Thayer -- which is in keeping with Gospel truth -- here is what it means in context: 1. to empty, make empty: ἑαυτόν ἐκένωσε, namely, τοῦ εἶναι ἴσα Θεῷ or τῆς μορφῆς τοῦ Θεοῦ, i. e. he laid aside equality with or the form of God (said of Christ), Philippians 2:7. Which corresponds to the KJB "He made Himself of no reputation".

So what this really means is that Christ did NOT empty Himself of His nature of being fully God. Rather, He made Himself the Servant of God the Father, and totally surrendered to the will of the Father (as we see in Gethsemane). Indeed He made Himself accursed when He was made Sin for us (He who knew no sin). At the same time He maintained all the attributes of God while He was Man. Thus it was "God" who was manifest in the flesh (1 Tim 3:16).

Isaiah 52: BEHOLD MY SERVANT
13 Behold, my Servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. 14 As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: 15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

 

[Cooper]

To me this is a challenge to fully understand. Whatever knowledge or understanding Jesus forfeited while in the flesh it was by divine design. I do not see this as a challenge to the Trinity nor Jesus's deity. Whatever the situation it was by design. It feels to me that God the Father who Jesus was praying too held authority over him while Jesus was in the flesh as a man. This being true at least conceptionally leaves room for limited knowledge for a divine purpose. Jesus could not instruct the Apostles to preach the Gospel to the Gentiles because God had not reveled the mystery yet. It's possible that Jesus knew about the mystery but instructed the Apostles to go only to the Jews for other reasons we are not aware of. I do not know but I know it's possible to see this two different ways.

Mar 13:32-37 KJV But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. (33) Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. (34) For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. (35) Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: (36) Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. (37) And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

I'm thinking this is similar to the parable of the ten virgins. The message which extends to all generations is to watch, wait and be ready.
.

 

[JohnPaul]

Did Jesus not help a Gentile, a Roman Centurion who came to the Lord for help, "Lord he said, my servant lies at home paralyzed, suffering terribly" Jesus said unto him, shall I come and heal him? The Centurion replied, 'Lord I do not deserve to have you come under my roof, but just say the word and my servant will be healed, for I myself am a man under authority with soldiers under me, I tell this one go and he goes, and that one come and he comes, I say to my servant do this and he does it.

When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, "Truly I tell you I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith, I say to you many will come from the East and the West and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Issac and Jacob in the Kingdom of Heaven. But the subjects of the Kingdom will be thrown outside into the darkness, where there will be gnashing of teeth.

Then Jesus said to the Centurion, "Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would, and his servant was healed at that moment."

Is this not proof that Jesus knew the Gentiles who believed in him would already have been saved and become his heirs?

 

[Cooper]

Did Jesus not help a Gentile, a Roman Centurion who came to the Lord for help, "Lord he said, my servant lies at home paralyzed, suffering terribly" Jesus said unto him, shall I come and heal him? The Centurion replied, 'Lord I do not deserve to have you come under my roof, but just say the word and my servant will be healed, for I myself am a man under authority with soldiers under me, I tell this one go and he goes, and that one come and he comes, I say to my servant do this and he does it.

When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, "Truly I tell you I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith, I say to you many will come from the East and the West and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Issac and Jacob in the Kingdom of Heaven. But the subjects of the Kingdom will be thrown outside into the darkness, where there will be gnashing of teeth.

Then Jesus said to the Centurion, "Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would, and his servant was healed at that moment."

Is this not proof that Jesus knew the Gentiles who believed in him would already have been saved and become his heirs?

If anyone, Jew or Gentile alike, loves God he is known by him. 1 Corinthians 8:3
.

 

[TEXBOW]

Did Jesus not help a Gentile, a Roman Centurion who came to the Lord for help, "Lord he said, my servant lies at home paralyzed, suffering terribly" Jesus said unto him, shall I come and heal him? The Centurion replied, 'Lord I do not deserve to have you come under my roof, but just say the word and my servant will be healed, for I myself am a man under authority with soldiers under me, I tell this one go and he goes, and that one come and he comes, I say to my servant do this and he does it.

When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, "Truly I tell you I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith, I say to you many will come from the East and the West and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Issac and Jacob in the Kingdom of Heaven. But the subjects of the Kingdom will be thrown outside into the darkness, where there will be gnashing of teeth.

Then Jesus said to the Centurion, "Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would, and his servant was healed at that moment."

Is this not proof that Jesus knew the Gentiles who believed in him would already have been saved and become his heirs?

Jesus being Jesus. Remember the Gentiles could convert to Judaism. Proselytes were common. Jesus didn't tell the Centurion that he would see him in Paradise. Like I've mentioned it difficult to understand. Jesus himself said he came only for the lost sheep of Israel. Why would he say that if he had also come for all mankind? Did the Father reveal to the Son his necessary sacrifice?
Logic is not trustworthy but why the Trinity if the Father, Son and Holy Spirit all had the same role or knowledge? Difficult to grasp. Was the Son sovereign to the Father? Was the Holy Spirit sovereign to Jesus? Jesus praying to the Father would give you this view. God is so big we should not make him fit into our understandings. It's interesting to study but not necessary to fully understand.

 

[MatthewG]

@TEXBOW Isiah 60. Jesus would have known the overall plan.

Consider this brother; they had the Old Testament scriptures before Jesus came along. He would go to the synagogue then even teach the people what he knew and they were astonished by that.

Now I can’t remember where this scripture is maybe in luke but that was something Jesus did do, he went to the synagogue and learned scripture and the only scripture they had then back then in his day in age. Was Old Testament. If you go read Isaiah 60 you might see something interesting.

Hope this helps you friend keep studying and keep asking questions!

 

[marks]

We need to take a very close look at this translation and see if it is indeed valid (even if the Greek word literally means empty). According to Thayer -- which is in keeping with Gospel truth -- here is what it means in context: 1. to empty, make empty: ἑαυτόν ἐκένωσε, namely, τοῦ εἶναι ἴσα Θεῷ or τῆς μορφῆς τοῦ Θεοῦ, i. e. he laid aside equality with or the form of God (said of Christ), Philippians 2:7. Which corresponds to the KJB "He made Himself of no reputation".

So what this really means is that Christ did NOT empty Himself of His nature of being fully God. Rather, He made Himself the Servant of God the Father, and totally surrendered to the will of the Father (as we see in Gethsemane). Indeed He made Himself accursed when He was made Sin for us (He who knew no sin). At the same time He maintained all the attributes of God while He was Man. Thus it was "God" who was manifest in the flesh (1 Tim 3:16).

Isaiah 52: BEHOLD MY SERVANT
13 Behold, my Servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. 14 As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: 15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

He could have called 12 legions of angels but He didn't.

Much love!

 

[JohnPaul]

Jesus being Jesus. Remember the Gentiles could convert to Judaism. Proselytes were common. Jesus didn't tell the Centurion that he would see him in Paradise. Like I've mentioned it difficult to understand. Jesus himself said he came only for the lost sheep of Israel. Why would he say that if he had also come for all mankind? Did the Father reveal to the Son his necessary sacrifice?
Logic is not trustworthy but why the Trinity if the Father, Son and Holy Spirit all had the same role or knowledge? Difficult to grasp. Was the Son sovereign to the Father? Was the Holy Spirit sovereign to Jesus? Jesus praying to the Father would give you this view. God is so big we should not make him fit into our understandings. It's interesting to study but not necessary to fully understand.

We are all descended from Adam and Eve are we not? Jesus came for our salvation to wash away the sins of the world started by Adam and Eve, So I don’t think he exclusively came only to save the Jews.

 

[TEXBOW]

@TEXBOW Isiah 60. Jesus would have known the overall plan.

Consider this brother; they had the Old Testament scriptures before Jesus came along. He would go to the synagogue then even teach the people what he knew and they were astonished by that.

Now I can’t remember where this scripture is maybe in luke but that was something Jesus did do, he went to the synagogue and learned scripture and the only scripture they had then back then in his day in age. Was Old Testament. If you go read Isaiah 60 you might see something interesting.

Hope this helps you friend keep studying and keep asking questions!

I'm not convinced that early Judaism read Isaiah 60 and defended it as you might suggest. Come to the light could be understood as being shown the truth, seeing the truth. I do not see it as proof that Gentiles would be heirs. The Jews even the most legalist and religious Jews totally rejected the notion of Gentiles being heirs. It was beyond their belief. Some say it took over 50 years after the Apostles for it to be mostly accepted.

We find no mention in the OT of the Church Age. In fact we see a very different expected path to the Kingdom. One that was imminent "any day now" Its one thing to look back after knowing the facts and pick what we might think are hints at the mystery but in real time I'm certain they didn't have a clue. I mostly base that upon the scriptures. "God kept it a mystery". The prophets could not have known or God didn't keep it a mystery to himself. I do not think the Holy Spirt inspired word is wrong. IF it says God kept it a mystery then it was a mystery only known to God.

 

[TEXBOW]

We are all descended from Adam and Eve are we not? Jesus came for our salvation to wash away the sins of the world started by Adam and Eve, So I don’t think he exclusively came only to save the Jews.

The scriptures tell us that God kept the mystery since the beginning of time. Jesus said he came only for the lost sheep of Israel. God had a plan since the beginning. Jesus had a mission given by God the Father. Is is possible that God kept it a mystery for a great purpose. Satan thought the Gentiles were all his. He thought that the Jews were the only peoples God protected. Do you think that Satan and his evil accomplices would have been so eager to hang Jesus on the cross if they had known it was going to be a sacrifice for all mankind's sins? Satan thought he had won a battle at the cross only to learn that Jesus paid the price to save all who believed.