Jesus in his earthy ministry didn't know that Gentiles would become heirs.

[TEXBOW]

Only God knew the mystery. It's obvious that Jesus knew after he ascended because he told Paul. Jesus said himself that he came for the lost sheep of Israel, Matthew 15:24. Jesus told the Apostles to not go to the Gentiles. I do not think these things would have been said if Jesus knew of the mystery Paul clearly teaches us in Ephesians 3.

Is God sovereign over the trinity or is this an example of God being sovereign over Jesus in the flesh? Both?

 

[farouk]

Only God knew the mystery. It's obvious that Jesus knew after he ascended because he told Paul. Jesus said himself that he came for the lost sheep of Israel, Matthew 15:24. Jesus told the Apostles to not go to the Gentiles. I do not think these things would have been said if Jesus knew of the mystery Paul clearly teaches us in Ephesians 3.

Is God sovereign over the trinity or is this an example of God being sovereign over Jesus in the flesh? Both?

He is God, so omniscient.

 

[Desire Of All Nations]

Your theology is way off. Considering Jesus was the God that told Abraham that the whole world would be blessed through him and the same God that inspired the prophets to write of the time where the whole world would be truly converted Christians, i'd say Jesus wasn't left in the dark about that mystery. Jesus simply couldn't go into depth about spiritual matters with the disciples before His ascension because it would've went right over their heads(1 Cor. 2:11). It would've been like trying to teach advanced calculus to a dog.

 

[TEXBOW]

He is God, so omniscient.

Yes God is. I'm exploring the omniscience regarding the Trinity and Jesus in the flesh during his early ministry.

 

[TEXBOW]

Your theology is way off. Considering Jesus was the God that told Abraham that the whole world would be blessed through him and the same God that inspired the prophets to write of the time where the whole world would be truly converted Christians, i'd say Jesus wasn't left in the dark about that mystery. Jesus simply couldn't go into depth about spiritual matters with the disciples before His ascension because it would've went right over their heads(1 Cor. 2:11). It would've been like trying to teach advanced calculus to a dog.

Mark 13:32
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Jesus himself said he didn't know the time of his return, only the Father. Could this not also be the case with the mystery?

 

[farouk]

Mark 13:32
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Jesus himself said he didn't know the time of his return, only the Father. Could this not also be the case with the mystery?

Philippians 2 gives the idea of voluntary subjection; there is omniscience in principle but also the active exercise of it, which is may be distinct.

 

[marks]

Only God knew the mystery. It's obvious that Jesus knew after he ascended because he told Paul. Jesus said himself that he came for the lost sheep of Israel, Matthew 15:24. Jesus told the Apostles to not go to the Gentiles. I do not think these things would have been said if Jesus knew of the mystery Paul clearly teaches us in Ephesians 3.

Is God sovereign over the trinity or is this an example of God being sovereign over Jesus in the flesh? Both?

When the Jews began to reject Him, He began to teach in parables. He knew.

Much love!

 

[Enoch111]

Only God knew the mystery.

Yeah, and since Jesus is God, He knew all that the Father and the Holy Spirit knew. To claim what you did in the title to the thread is simply bizarre.

 

[Enoch111]

But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

I love it when Christians take this verse to claim that Christ does not know this AT PRESENT. Did you forget what Jesus said after His resurrection and before His ascension: And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. (Mt 28:18)

What does it mean to have all power and authority in Heaven and on earth? Does it not include every decision of the Godhead, including exactly when Christ will return to earth "with power and great glory"? So no one should be claiming that at this time Christ is ignorant about anything, including the fact that Gentiles would be within the Church as heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ.

 

[amadeus]

Yes God is. I'm exploring the omniscience regarding the Trinity and Jesus in the flesh during his early ministry.

For some here as you likely already know it is a forbidden topic because they have already decided!

 

[TEXBOW]

I love it when Christians take this verse to claim that Christ does not know this AT PRESENT. Did you forget what Jesus said after His resurrection and before His ascension: And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. (Mt 28:18)

What does it mean to have all power and authority in Heaven and on earth? Does it not include every decision of the Godhead, including exactly when Christ will return to earth "with power and great glory"? So no one should be claiming that at this time Christ is ignorant about anything, including the fact that Gentiles would be within the Church as heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ.

Your dispute is with the scriptures not me. It clearly says neither the Son. While Jesus was on earth before his cruxifixction he asked his Father “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will” (Matthew 26:39) Jesus asked "IF" it is possible. This is not a dispute on if Jesus is God but about what Jesus knew while in the flesh as a man. He obviously set aside his divinity. I do not see this as any demotion of God.

 

[amadeus]

Philippians 2 gives the idea of voluntary subjection; there is omniscience in principle but also the active exercise of it, which is may be distinct.

Should we take an course in philosophy according to men in order to understand God and His Way?

And then of course when men have already decided what the answer is, where is room left for God to talk to them about it?

 

[farouk]

Your dispute is with the scriptures not me. It clearly says neither the Son. While Jesus was on earth before his cruxifixction he asked his Father “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will” (Matthew 26:39) Jesus asked "IF" it is possible. This is not a dispute on if Jesus is God but about what Jesus knew while in the flesh as a man. He obviously set aside his divinity. I do not see this as any demotion of God.

I do believe the Incarnation (John 1.14; 1 Timothy 3.16) strongly implies that He was fully God in all His earthly ministry; the fact that He chose not to exercise some of the prerogatives of deity is part of that.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Only God knew the mystery. It's obvious that Jesus knew after he ascended because he told Paul. Jesus said himself that he came for the lost sheep of Israel, Matthew 15:24. Jesus told the Apostles to not go to the Gentiles. I do not think these things would have been said if Jesus knew of the mystery Paul clearly teaches us in Ephesians 3.

Is God sovereign over the trinity or is this an example of God being sovereign over Jesus in the flesh? Both?

Actually, I think you may be making an assumption here about what Jesus was doing, TEXBOW. Let me quote the text first, and I will explain:

21 Then Jesus went out from there and departed to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed.” 23 But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, “Send her away, for she cries out after us.” 24 But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 25 Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, help me!” 26 But He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the little dogs.” 27 And she said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.” 28 Then Jesus answered and said to her, “O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Now, if you'll notice, He was very pleased with her response, and her response was in effect correcting Him on what He said. When you see that, you understand that He was in all likelihood just setting her up if you will, knowing that despite being a Canaanite her faith in God was there, but He wanted her to express it in words.

I believe His statement was a leading one, meant to draw her out, as if to give her the common Jewish reply when He knew she wouldn't buy that faithless nonsense but would be even so bold as to correct Him. This could have gotten her disciplined, for women were not generally supposed to be teaching men, let alone a Canaanite woman.

 

[TEXBOW]

Actually, I think you may be making an assumption here about what Jesus was doing, TEXBOW. Let me quote the text first, and I will explain:

21 Then Jesus went out from there and departed to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed.” 23 But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, “Send her away, for she cries out after us.” 24 But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 25 Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, help me!” 26 But He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the little dogs.” 27 And she said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.” 28 Then Jesus answered and said to her, “O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Now, if you'll notice, He was very pleased with her response, and her response was in effect correcting Him on what He said. When you see that, you understand that He was in all likelihood just setting her up if you will, knowing that despite being a Canaanite her faith in God was there, but He wanted her to express it in words.

I believe His statement was a leading one, meant to draw her out, as if to give her the common Jewish reply when He knew she wouldn't buy that faithless nonsense but would be even so bold as to correct Him. This could have gotten her disciplined, for women were not generally supposed to be teaching men, let alone a Canaanite woman.

Mark 13:32 clearly says the Son didn't know. My assumption is that its possible he didn't know about the mystery either. If Mark 13:32 is the inspired word of God then why would we try to disagree or seek to dispute it. I'm not sure I understand why Christians find offense in the Son not knowing something the Father has not shared with Jesus as a man. I know Jesus is God but in his earthly ministry he took off his deity robe as he reached out to the Father several times.

 

[Enoch111]

He obviously set aside his divinity. I do not see this as any demotion of God.

But why did you ignore Matthew 28:18? The time of His humiliation was over. Christ now knows and sees all things, including the exact date and time of His second coming. And even before His crucifixion, the Bible says that He knew all things:
Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God (John 13:3) Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye? (John 18:4)

 

[TEXBOW]

But why did you ignore Matthew 28:18? The time of His humiliation was over. Christ now knows and sees all things, including the exact date and time of His second coming. And even before His crucifixion, the Bible says that He knew all things:
Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God (John 13:3) Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye? (John 18:4)

I do not ignore anything. In fact it's a lack of ignoring that I read Mark 13:32 which clearly says that the Son didn't know. Did God spoon feed Jesus information while in his earthly ministry. Jesus told Mary that his Hour had not come yet. It certainly seems as if there was a transition taking place. The fact that Jesus prayed to the Father should tell us something.

 

[Enoch111]

I do not ignore anything. In fact it's a lack of ignoring that I read Mark 13:32 which clearly says that the Son didn't know. Did God spoon feed Jesus information while in his earthly ministry. Jesus told Mary that his Hour had not come yet. It certainly seems as if there was a transition taking place.

You keep going backward from the resurrection, instead of forward to the ascension and thereafter. Why? You want to believe that Jesus is ignorant about some things.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Mark 13:32 clearly says the Son didn't know. My assumption is that its possible he didn't know about the mystery either. If Mark 13:32 is the inspired word of God then why would we try to disagree or seek to dispute it. I'm not sure I understand why Christians find offense in the Son not knowing something the Father has not shared with Jesus as a man. I know Jesus is God but in his earthly ministry he took off his deity robe as he reached out to the Father several times.

I personally don't dispute that the Son didn't know the timing of His return in Mark 13:32, nor does His Divinity rest on Him knowing absolutely everything the Father knew at the time. I'm simply telling you, the text has Him commending the woman after she corrected him, and scripture says multiple times concerning the Pharisees, "But He knew their thoughts." He knew the woman at the well's life before she even started speaking with Him. How is it not reasonable that He already knew what was in this woman's head as well?

As for Him not knowing the Gentiles would be saved, have you considered this text? He was talking to a Roman centurion here, i.e. a Gentile.

8 The centurion answered and said, “Lord, I am not worthy that You should come under my roof. But only speak a word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I also am a man under authority, having soldiers under me. And I say to this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes; and to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” 10 When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, “Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! 11 And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go your way; and as you have believed, so let it be done for you.” And his servant was healed that same hour.

By this, Jesus was communicating to those present that many Gentiles would be entering the kingdom who had great faith just like this centurion did, but the sons of the kingdom (the Jews) who did not have faith would be cast out.

 

[TEXBOW]

You keep going backward from the resurrection, instead of forward to the ascension and thereafter. Why? You want to believe that Jesus is ignorant about some things.

I'm not really sure how to reply to your question as I cannot phantom it be serious. I do not doubt that Jesus knew more on the day he ascended into Heaven then the day he was a child helping his father in his carpenter shop. I'm not discussing or suggesting that Jesus was ignorant by any stretch of the imagination. Was it God's plan for Jesus while in the flesh (a man) to not know all things? Mark 13:32 suggest so.