Jesus in his earthy ministry didn't know that Gentiles would become heirs.

[farouk]

@Waiting on him Good to see you; I hope you and @VictoryinJesus are doing well.

 

[ScottA]

Only God knew the mystery. It's obvious that Jesus knew after he ascended because he told Paul. Jesus said himself that he came for the lost sheep of Israel, Matthew 15:24. Jesus told the Apostles to not go to the Gentiles. I do not think these things would have been said if Jesus knew of the mystery Paul clearly teaches us in Ephesians 3.

Is God sovereign over the trinity or is this an example of God being sovereign over Jesus in the flesh? Both?

It's not that he didn't know, but the plan of God for salvation is twofold: "and other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and there will be one flock and one shepherd. " John 10:16

 

[Hidden In Him]

If that infant was God, His knowledge would be astounding. And when Jesus was twelve, He proved it.

Yeah, I was aware of it.

However throughout the Gospels we see Jesus of Nazareth with full knowledge of all things in advance and also what was in the hearts and souls of men. He was also always filled with the Holy Spirit.

I think the interesting part about his argument is how does the human brain contain all the knowledge that God Himself possesses. I'm wondering if that's possible. But it's clear He received continual revelation from God in the moment regarding whatever He was about to encounter, so maybe knowing everything about all things while in the flesh wasn't really necessary.

 

[Lambano]

Taking human form necessarily means taking on human limitations, one of which is that (in case you haven’t noticed) we’re not omniscient.

I confess that the “Fully God, fully Man” doctrine makes me intellectually very uncomfortable because somewhere down the line you’re going to stray into Docetism, Arianism, polytheism, Sabellianism, monarchal modalism, or some other heretical “ism”.

 

[amadeus]

... I believe His statement was a leading one, meant to draw her out, as if to give her the common Jewish reply when He knew she wouldn't buy that faithless nonsense but would be even so bold as to correct Him. This could have gotten her disciplined, for women were not generally supposed to be teaching men, let alone a Canaanite woman.

Jesus' response to her also goes to show that God, indeed, is no respecter of persons. What is a Hebrew or a Jew or a Gentile to God?

"...According to your faith be it unto you"

There are many other places in scripture where God makes it clear for those with "eyes to see" that He is always looking more closely at the hearts of people than to their adherence to the letter of the law. This was true in the OT as well as the NT. God has never changed!

Why was it that Joshua and Caleb were allowed to enter into the Promised Land while all the rest of the adults who were brought out of Egypt died in the wilderness? I doubt that it was because of their flawless obedience to all of the laws God gave to Moses.

Does not David touch on the truth of the matter in these words penned by him?

"For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." Psalm 51:16-17

God is looking for "reasonable service"... and something more:

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service." Rom 12:1

Where is it to be found? Probably not in the selfishness of so many today seeking first to be recipients of the blessings of God! Why does God love us? Why do we love Him... if we do?

"Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself." Phil 2:3

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Only God knew the mystery. It's obvious that Jesus knew after he ascended because he told Paul. Jesus said himself that he came for the lost sheep of Israel, Matthew 15:24. Jesus told the Apostles to not go to the Gentiles. I do not think these things would have been said if Jesus knew of the mystery Paul clearly teaches us in Ephesians 3.

Is God sovereign over the trinity or is this an example of God being sovereign over Jesus in the flesh? Both?

I’ve thought a lot about your question since yesterday. At first I want to say yes Because to me …He is the word of God. Then If He is the Word …then the Word forseeing the gentiles would be justified by faith …preached the gospel to Abram beforehand, which He is the gospel yea? Where if “the Word forseeing” would mean yes Christ forseen the gentiles would be justified by faith…

‘The scripture,
Forseeing
That God would justify the gentiles by faith,
Preached beforehand the gospel to Abraham, saying, “All Nations will be blessed in you.”’ Galatians 3:8

Hebrews 11:16-17 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. [17] By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

^Who offered up His only begotten son?
Because Abram was stopped before doing so.

I stumble at your question because (Imo) Abram …did he know or even understand the magnitude of what was being preached “beforehand” there in a willingness to offer up Issac? Or by Faith Abram manifested “the Word” that came unto him by what the Father instructed Abram to do? So I have to ask (or at least consider) if Jesus Christ being made a little lower than the angels taking on the form of a man saying “I only do what My Father says to do.” …to say He knew everything would that take away from what it means “to walk by faith’ and to trust in the Father? just as Abram “by faith” was willing to obey…. so fully Christ obeyed what the Father shewed Him to do and only said what the Father instructed him to say? Did he take the lead in the knowing, or submit to ‘leading of’ to the Father?

Genesis 15:1 After these things the word of the Lord came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
^ who is “thy shield”?
who is “thy exceeding great reward”?

Zechariah 7:5-12 Speak unto all the people of the land, and to the priests, saying, When ye fasted and mourned in the fifth and seventh month, even those seventy years, did ye at all fast unto me, even to me? [6] And when ye did eat, and when ye did drink, did not ye eat for yourselves, and drink for yourselves ? [7] Should ye not hear the words which the Lord has cried by the former prophets, when Jerusalem was inhabited and in prosperity, and the cities thereof round about her, when men inhabited the south and the plain? [8] And the word of the Lord came unto Zechariah, saying, [9] Thus speaks the Lord of hosts, saying, Execute true judgment, and shew mercy and compassions every man to his brother: [10] And oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart. [11] But they refused to hear, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear. [12] Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the Lord of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the Lord of hosts.

Jeremiah 18:1-4 The word which came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying, [2] Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. [3] Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. [4] And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter(one vessel made unto destruction): so he made it again another vessel(another made he unto honor and glory
Romans 2:9-11) (2 Timothy 2:20-21),
as seemed good to the potter to make it.

John 10:33-38 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. [34] Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, (that) I said, Ye are gods?
^(Is that true?or instead there is: One God? One Lord
1 Corinthians 8:5-6
35] If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; [36] (then why do you) …Say you of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? [37] If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. [38] But if I do, though you believe not me, believe the works: that you may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.


Realize that is a long post….but trying to share questions I have because now I’m not so certain if he fully knew or “by faith” did what the Father told and showed him to do …for the sake of The work of God …which for the works sake, you are?

Mark 11:21-22 And Peter calling to remembrance said unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursed is withered away. [22] And Jesus answered saying unto them, Have faith in God.

 

[TEXBOW]

I’ve thought a lot about your question since yesterday. At first I want to say yes Because to me …He is the word of God. Then If He is the Word …then the Word forseeing the gentiles would be justified by faith …preached the gospel to Abram beforehand, which He is the gospel yea? Where if “the Word forseeing” would mean yes Christ forseen the gentiles would be justified by faith…

‘The scripture,
Forseeing
That God would justify the gentiles by faith,
Preached beforehand the gospel to Abraham, saying, “All Nations will be blessed in you.”’ Galatians 3:8

Hebrews 11:16-17 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. [17] By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

^Who offered up His only begotten son?
Because Abram was stopped before doing so.

I stumble at your question because (Imo) Abram …did he know or even understand the magnitude of what was being preached “beforehand” there in a willingness to offer up Issac? Or by Faith Abram manifested “the Word” that came unto him by what the Father instructed Abram to do? So I have to ask (or at least consider) if Jesus Christ being made a little lower than the angels taking on the form of a man saying “I only do what My Father says to do.” …to say He knew everything would that take away from what it means “to walk by faith’ and to trust in the Father? just as Abram “by faith” was willing to obey…. so fully Christ obeyed what the Father shewed Him to do and only said what the Father instructed him to say? Did he take the lead in the knowing, or submit to ‘leading of’ to the Father?

Genesis 15:1 After these things the word of the Lord came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
^ who is “thy shield”?
who is “thy exceeding great reward”?

Zechariah 7:5-12 Speak unto all the people of the land, and to the priests, saying, When ye fasted and mourned in the fifth and seventh month, even those seventy years, did ye at all fast unto me, even to me? [6] And when ye did eat, and when ye did drink, did not ye eat for yourselves, and drink for yourselves ? [7] Should ye not hear the words which the Lord has cried by the former prophets, when Jerusalem was inhabited and in prosperity, and the cities thereof round about her, when men inhabited the south and the plain? [8] And the word of the Lord came unto Zechariah, saying, [9] Thus speaks the Lord of hosts, saying, Execute true judgment, and shew mercy and compassions every man to his brother: [10] And oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart. [11] But they refused to hear, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear. [12] Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the Lord of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the Lord of hosts.

Jeremiah 18:1-4 The word which came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying, [2] Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. [3] Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. [4] And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter(one vessel made unto destruction): so he made it again another vessel(another made he unto honor and glory
Romans 2:9-11) (2 Timothy 2:20-21),
as seemed good to the potter to make it.

John 10:33-38 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. [34] Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, (that) I said, Ye are gods?
^(Is that true?or instead there is: One God? One Lord
1 Corinthians 8:5-6
35] If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; [36] (then why do you) …Say you of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? [37] If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. [38] But if I do, though you believe not me, believe the works: that you may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.


Realize that is a long post….but trying to share questions I have because now I’m not so certain if he fully knew or “by faith” did what the Father told and showed him to do …for the sake of The work of God …which for the works sake, you are?

Mark 11:21-22 And Peter calling to remembrance said unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursed is withered away. [22] And Jesus answered saying unto them, Have faith in God.

To me this is a challenge to fully understand. Whatever knowledge or understanding Jesus forfeited while in the flesh it was by divine design. I do not see this as a challenge to the Trinity nor Jesus's deity. Whatever the situation it was by design. It feels to me that God the Father who Jesus was praying too held authority over him while Jesus was in the flesh as a man. This being true at least conceptionally leaves room for limited knowledge for a divine purpose. Jesus could not instruct the Apostles to preach the Gospel to the Gentiles because God had not reveled the mystery yet. It's possible that Jesus knew about the mystery but instructed the Apostles to go only to the Jews for other reasons we are not aware of. I do not know but I know it's possible to see this two different ways.

 

[Pythagorean12]

Jesus was God. The word made flesh.He knew everything in his earthly ministry, including bringing the Gentiles into his grace.

 

[farouk]

Jesus was God. The word made flesh.He knew everything in his earthly ministry, including bringing the Gentiles into his grace.

@Pythagorean12 The Incarnation is a holy mystery indeed; John 1.14; Colossians 2.9; 1 Timothy 3.16.

 

[TEXBOW]

Jesus was God. The word made flesh.He knew everything in his earthly ministry, including bringing the Gentiles into his grace.

If he knew everything explain Mark 13:32 without scripture gymnastics. It clearly says the son doesn't know. There is no scripture that reverses Mark 13:32. The Holy Spirit didn't allow Mark to pen a false statement in the scriptures.
Mark 13:32
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

 

[Pythagorean12]

If he knew everything explain Mark 13:32 without scripture gymnastics. It clearly says the son doesn't know. There is no scripture that reverses Mark 13:32. The Holy Spirit didn't allow Mark to pen a false statement in the scriptures.
Mark 13:32
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

I have no intention of trying to persuade those who wrongly think Jesus was but a man blessed in service to God as a separate "person".

The answer is in Jesus incarnation.Phillipians 2.

 

[TEXBOW]

I have no intention of trying to persuade those who wrongly think Jesus was but a man blessed in service to God as a separate "person".

The answer is in Jesus incarnation.Phillipians 2.

I do not buy into your diversion, I do not think Jesus was but a man. Never said that. I have news for you God is so big that Jesus while in his earthly ministry could have for a reason by design had limited knowledge about the second coming, the mystery and possibly other things. Jesus prayed to the Father. Yes God is that BIG. We should not let our limited intellect restrict God's abilities or purpose.

 

[Pythagorean12]

I do not buy into your diversion, I do not think Jesus was but a man. Never said that. I have news for you God is so big that Jesus while in his earthly ministry could have for a reason by design had limited knowledge about the second coming, the mystery and possibly other things. Jesus prayed to the Father. Yes God is that BIG. We should not let our limited intellect restrict God's abilities or purpose.

Not diversion, bible.
Limited intellect is a human condition when thinking we can fully comprehend God. And then the church turns on itself defending what each one thinks must be the sum total of God according to their opinionated limited consciousness.

God is Omniscient, Omnipresent, Omnipotent. He wins.

 

[marks]

To me this is a challenge to fully understand. Whatever knowledge or understanding Jesus forfeited while in the flesh it was by divine design. I do not see this as a challenge to the Trinity nor Jesus's deity. Whatever the situation it was by design. It feels to me that God the Father who Jesus was praying too held authority over him while Jesus was in the flesh as a man. This being true at least conceptionally leaves room for limited knowledge for a divine purpose. Jesus could not instruct the Apostles to preach the Gospel to the Gentiles because God had not reveled the mystery yet. It's possible that Jesus knew about the mystery but instructed the Apostles to go only to the Jews for other reasons we are not aware of. I do not know but I know it's possible to see this two different ways.

I'm thinking that what Jesus did and didn't know isn't so much the point. "I only say what the Father says, I only do what I see the Father doing."

The works He did, He did them by the power of the Holy Spirit. "They didn't have much faith, so he was only able to do a few miracles". Because He wasn't acting on His Own.

Jesus had the Scriptures, and Godly wisdom, and had Himself told Abraham that all the families of the earth will be blessed through Him.

Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of Israel, and He did what He was sent to do.

Jeremiah wrote of the God of all flesh. When Jesus incarnated . . . took on flesh . . . He took on all that goes with flesh, including servitude and reverence.

I'm thinking that in some instances, the Father allowed for us divine knowledge to come through - "He did not commit himself to men, because he knew what was in the heart of man", something like that. In other instances, not so, "but of the time of My coming, only the Father knows."

When Jesus took on the form of a servant, he became truly and fully subservient, with all that means.

Much love!

 

[TEXBOW]

Not diversion, bible.
Limited intellect is a human condition when thinking we can fully comprehend God. And then the church turns on itself defending what each one thinks must be the sum total of God according to their opinionated limited consciousness.

God is Omniscient, Omnipresent, Omnipotent. He wins.

John 1:4
Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come. What was the difference between then (at that moment) and when the hour came?

 

[marks]

I think the interesting part about his argument is how does the human brain contain all the knowledge that God Himself possesses. I'm wondering if that's possible. But it's clear He received continual revelation from God in the moment regarding whatever He was about to encounter, so maybe knowing everything about all things while in the flesh wasn't really necessary.

As a man alive in the Spirit, the brain doesn't need to hold it all. "Just in time" knowledge, yes, I think God does that. But also, God shares with us His knowledge and understanding, by having united us to His Spirit, so again, that goes way beyond our little brains.

And . . . "we know that we have a building from God, not made by hands, eternal in the heavens", I believe our new creation has a true spiritual existance in the heavenly realm, and we live from that creation, not the Adamic creation. So . . . not just our little brains.

And of course . . . they say we use very little of our brains, so, who knows?

Just some of the spillage from this brain!

Much love!

 

[MatthewG]

Your question actually outweighed anything that has to do with the trinity. I don’t believe in the trinity anyway.

God sent his Word that in the beginning created. In flesh, and The Word comes down from heaven from a previous standing. Now the Word is depending on the Father. Now Jesus himself since a young boy went and learned the scriptures, the Old Testament scriptures. So Jesus had an earthly nature and his soul was the logos of God or Word of God. But he was constantly always having his soul (mind/will/emotion) directed towards the Father. Then He was baptized in the spirit on the day of meeting John the Baptist.

Because of Jesus and his own choices there were things he did know and things he seemed maybe not to know, but He was always looking at the over all Will of the Father which was to incorporate everyone being reconciled by the death that he would suffer but be raised up on the third day.

Good question

 

[Hidden In Him]

As a man alive in the Spirit, the brain doesn't need to hold it all. "Just in time" knowledge, yes, I think God does that. But also, God shares with us His knowledge and understanding, by having united us to His Spirit, so again, that goes way beyond our little brains.

Yeah. I think in hearing from God in the moment He served as an example to us, who need to hear from Him while still in the flesh, and subject to its limitations.

 

[marks]

Yeah. I think in hearing from God in the moment He served as an example to us, who need to hear from Him while still in the flesh, and subject to its limitations.

Confidence in God to give me what I need when I need it allows me to spend all my time here, now. So I can fully enjoy this moment without pressing concerns of either past or future. At least, not unduly so.

Much love!

 

[farouk]

Your question actually outweighed anything that has to do with the trinity. I don’t believe in the trinity anyway.

God sent his Word that in the beginning created. In flesh, and The Word comes down from heaven from a previous standing. Now the Word is depending on the Father. Now Jesus himself since a young boy went and learned the scriptures, the Old Testament scriptures. So Jesus had an earthly nature and his soul was the logos of God or Word of God. But he was constantly always having his soul (mind/will/emotion) directed towards the Father. Then He was baptized in the spirit on the day of meeting John the Baptist.

Because of Jesus and his own choices there were things he did know and things he seemed maybe not to know, but He was always looking at the over all Will of the Father which was to incorporate everyone being reconciled by the death that he would suffer but be raised up on the third day.

Good question

@MatthewG I do strongly think God in Three Persons is very definitely present in the New Testament especially.