That should be "to save all mankind". The ones who believe are saved, but all human beings could be saved if all would believe. All are invited to repent and believe. Indeed all are COMMANDED to repent and believe.
Jesus in his earthy ministry didn't know that Gentiles would become heirs.
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True. That would only be revealed to Paul.
But that does not mean that there is no mention of the salvation of the Gentiles. In fact it is specifically stated in the OT and addressed to Christ: And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. (Isa 49:6)
Could not the Jews of that time not understood that to mean that the Gentiles would be converted to Judaism? My understanding is that the Jews knew that the only way a Gentile could be in favor with God was to convert, become proselytes.
Isaiah 49:1-9 is speaking about an individual and that person is Christ, even though He is addressed as "Israel" in one verse.
1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.
2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;
3And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
4Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my work with my God.
5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his Servant, to bring Jacob again to him [Israel is distinct from God's Servant], Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.
6 And he [God the Father] said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my Servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, [Israel is distinct from God's Servant]
and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
8 Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
9 That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places.
I agree that the people of that time would not have understood.
But that does not mean Jesus would not have understood. He was after all the Word of God, in a fleshly body, who had help from his Father.
You can see Isiah 56 if you would like, the notions above the chapter say “Salvation for the Gentiles”, Jesus would have understood his Fathers Will and that is my point.
That was the mystery revealed isn’t it? That Gentiles indeed would be coming into the fray, but no one understood that until they had the Holy Spirit and you can see Paul bringing forth the news to the Gentile nations, right? But also having love for his fellow brothers the Jewish people who you can see He warns in Romans 9.
Also here proof that Jesus would have been learning those scriptures (Old Testament Isiah, Moses, Elijah, Job, Micah) and he was baptized in the Holy Spirit and could understand what others could not… until the Holy Spirit was released after his death, burial and resurrection then ascension.
“His parents went to Jerusalem every year at the Feast of the Passover. And when He was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem according to the custom of the feast. When they had finished the days, as they returned, the Boy Jesus lingered behind in Jerusalem. And Joseph and His mother did not know it; but supposing Him to have been in the company, they went a day’s journey, and sought Him among their relatives and acquaintances. So when they did not find Him, they returned to Jerusalem, seeking Him. Now so it was that after three days they
found Him in the
temple,
sitting in the
midst of the teachers,
both listening to them and
asking them questions. And all who heard Him were astonished at His understanding and answers. So when they saw Him, they were amazed; and His mother said to Him, “Son, why have You done this to us? Look, Your father and I have sought You anxiously.””
Luke 2:41-48 NKJV
“His parents went to Jerusalem every year at the Feast of the Passover. And when He was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem according to the custom of the feast. When they had finished the days, as they returned, the Boy Jesus lingered behind in Jerusalem. And Joseph and His mother did not know it; but supposing Him to have been in the company, they went a day’s journey, and sought Him among their relatives and acquaintances. So when they did not find Him, they returned to Jerusalem, seeking Him. Now so it was that after three days they
found Him in the
temple,
sitting in the
midst of the teachers,
both listening to them and
asking them questions. And all who heard Him were astonished at His understanding and answers. So when they saw Him, they were amazed; and His mother said to Him, “Son, why have You done this to us? Look, Your father and I have sought You anxiously.””
Luke 2:41-48 NKJV
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
I guess the whole incident with the Syro-Phonecian woman and other deemed recalcitrant ethnicities which Jesus interacted with were not indicators that Jesus was not ethnically exclusive!
Yes @quietthinker that is a very good reminder. Jesus main mission was to come to the lost sheep of Israel to get them to turn back to God however the people of Israel decided they wanted King Ceaser and not Jesus who ended up becoming the King of Kings, afterward in allowance of all people to come to Him.
It’s interesting that it was not God who put Jesus on death row. Jesus came freely willingly, and it was the people choice in general to put him up for death.
That death was for all people. Jesus could have stopped them from killing him, but He desired for Gods connection with man to be reunited and become like it was in the beginning. Where people had a choice; in which Faith brings forth the ability to have connection with the Father through the Lords death, burial, and resurrection.
Great news.
It’s interesting that it was not God who put Jesus on death row. Jesus came freely willingly, and it was the people choice in general to put him up for death.
That death was for all people. Jesus could have stopped them from killing him, but He desired for Gods connection with man to be reunited and become like it was in the beginning. Where people had a choice; in which Faith brings forth the ability to have connection with the Father through the Lords death, burial, and resurrection.
Great news.
Sorry, But Jesus was not alive to talk to Abraham... He had not yet been created by the Holy Spirit in the womb of Mary!!!
Hebrews 1: “God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son” (v 1-2).
So, the Son of God “did not speak” in the Old Testament days! Back in those days God spoke in various ways and only in “portions,” whether by vision or by prophet or by angel. It is only since Jesus Christ was brought into existence at birth and appeared “in these last days” that we have heard God speak “in his Son.” This is axiomatic. Jesus Christ was not God's messenger before his appearance as a man, born of Mary in history. Look at the scriptures:
Act 7:53 you who received the law as ordained by angels, and yet did not keep it."
Gal 3:19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.
Heb 2:2 For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty,
Paul
Bob Carabbio
Well-Known Member
Or more probably it was simply all part of the PLAN from the beginning. Israel had thousands of years of exposure to God, and the Antitypes of everything God was going to do, and the Gentiles didn't, so Jesus FIRST ministered to those who SHOULD have known (but didn't even have a clue in general). And THEN when Salvation WAS FINALLY POSSIBLE after Calvary, the message was allowed to propagate.
teamventure
Well-Known Member
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Jesus did not empty himself of his divine privilege, he was the fullness of God in human flesh.
The Word of God (in heaven) came forth OUT from Gods mouth, (while remaining IN God)
Gods Word, took upon himself, a body God Prepared.
Gods Word, was revealed to the World, (called Jesus) as a Son of man, who such man Joseph, a Jew, (Of the House of David), betrothed, then wedded to Mary, a Jew (Making Jesus A Lawful Jewish Heir) to king David’s everlasting Throne (established in Jerusalem, By God), and also Making Jesus A Lawful Son of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob, (and Lawful heir to Abraham’s Promised Land).
(High) Heaven IS Gods Throne; Gods Estate. Exclusive to Pure Light of that Which is Holy.
Earth (ie Dry Land); is Gods “footstool”. Occupied by Good AND Evil AND Wicked...subject to: corruption AND destruction AND restoration.
The Understanding IS: Jesus came IN the “LIKENESS” as an Earthly Terrestrial man...
So Earthly men could “hear AND SEE” Him....AND “learn” HOW TO, become, IN Gods “LIKENESS”.
Expressly Because Jesus came to Gods “footstool” in the “likeness” AS a man, He came with “limits”, AS an earthly man has.
He came with “particular things to accomplish”.
Once those “particular things were accomplished....finished”,
He returned to heaven, From whence He came.
Never was His “mission” to give an earthly man, all to know, all to see.
The Son of man, Jesus, shall return to Earth,
As The Son of man, (visibly seen), and later known as the Son of God, Christ Jesus...(whom Christ IS the Power of God, which men saw snippets of the “effects” of Gods Power)...
When The Son of man (Jesus) returns....all men WILL SEE HIM...
And He comes “with Power”...(ie, Christ).
Coming “WITH” Power, WILL further, accomplish Gods desire.
Point being...Jesus, 1st came FULL of Truth of Gods Knowledge, but NOT FULL Power....and FINISHED His mission.
Point being...Jesus, 2ndly shall come FULL of Gods Knowledge, AND with FULL Power....and His mission will be DONE.
Point being...while Jesus, KNEW ALL of Gods Knowledge, it was NOT His mission to Give ALL Knowledge to all men.
Remember....in John 14 (I think), the men who accept the Lords Offering of receiving Salvation (now, via conversion), are men who become entitled to direct communication (their born again spirit to Gods Spirit) to ASK Him things? Are we all asking for a new house, car, blah, blah...or His Spiritual Understanding of His Word? Ponder....
Isa 55:11.....my word out of my mouth...accomplish
John 19:28 & 30....accomplished...it is finished
1 Cor 1:24...Christ, the power of God
Luke 21:27...(returning)...coming with power
Rev 21:6...it is done
Glory to God,
Taken
teamventure
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Jesus was not a created being. The son always existed one with the father, (book of John) he only needed to be born in human form.
Your statement sounds shaky. Would you re-word it?
I don't think that's the assertion TEXBOW is making, teamventure. Jesus emptied Himself only in the sense that he laid aside for a time His status as the second person of the triune Godhead for the sake of reconciling man to God the Father by His work in the cross and resurrection. So during the time He walked the earth, I think/hope we all agree that He did not use ~ or exploit ~ His divinity for His or anyone else's benefit; this is what Paul means when he writes, that Jesus "did not count equality with God (the Father) to be grasped. But in that very statement, Paul acknowledged that Jesus was (and is now, too, of course) equal with the Father. As you probably know, this is exactly what Paul is saying in Philippians 2:
"...Christ Jesus, Who, though He was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted Him and bestowed on Him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
[vv. 5-11]
[vv. 5-11]
Yes, He was, as you say, the fullness of God in human flesh/form/nature. Paul also says this very clearly both here in Philippians 2 and in Colossians 1:
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross."
[vv. 15-20]
[vv. 15-20]
It's very important to make the distinction that He is the image of the invisible God, whereas we are created in the image of God. And too, as you say, that Jesus is the "firstborn of all creation" does not mean He was created, like we all were, but that He is preeminent over all things in the same sense (although much greater) that David became the firstborn over all his brothers even though he was the youngest of all his brothers.
And Jesus did indeed appear to and talk with Abraham... in Genesis 18.
Grace and peace to all.
Some of you simply do not believe this verse: Mark 13:32
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Some that do believe Mark 13:32 are ok with Jesus not knowing the time of his return but not ok not knowing of the mystery. It's not so cut and dry for me but the evidence of Jesus's purpose of saving only the lost sheep of Isreal and Ephesians 3:9
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Do I believe that Jesus before his incarnation knew of the mystery absolutely.
Do I believe Jesus before his incarnation knows the date of his return (Rapture & Second Coming) absolutely. As does God the Father and the Holy Spirit.
Do the scriptures tell us that Jesus (the Son) incarnate did not know the day or hour of his return YES IT DOES. Unless you wish to twist the scriptures is clearly tells us that in Mark 13:32
My question remains if Mark 13:32 is not a lie which we all know it is not, what else did the Son not know? It's the humanity that Jesus took onto himself that allows this to be studied. In his humanity was it by divine design that Jesus incarnate not know certain things unless God the Father told him during his earthly ministry? It's clear that Jesus asks the Father more than a few questions. You ask questions because you do not know. What was the purpose of Jesus seeking information from the Father if he knew everything? Did the Father reveal things to the Son as the time when on?
I think God is big enough to have Jesus incarnate to have limitations of knowledge for divine purposes that we may not understand. To simple dismiss this is ignoring the many scriptures regarding Jesus reaching out to the Father.
Some want to argue with God. The scriptures again clearly say in Ephesians 3:9 that the fellowship of the mystery hath been hid in God. Either God hid it or he didn't. Some say he didn't hide it, he told the prophets. If that is so then Ephesians 3:9 is false. The Jews never ever saw that Gentiles as being fellow heirs without converting to Judaism. Even after the cross, it was a shock to the Apostles. It remained a shock to most Jews for 50 years after the cross. If it would have NOT BEEN HIDDEN the religious zelots and Jews would not have rejected it, they would have understood the O.T.
Hindsight is 20/20 (for some).
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Some that do believe Mark 13:32 are ok with Jesus not knowing the time of his return but not ok not knowing of the mystery. It's not so cut and dry for me but the evidence of Jesus's purpose of saving only the lost sheep of Isreal and Ephesians 3:9
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Do I believe that Jesus before his incarnation knew of the mystery absolutely.
Do I believe Jesus before his incarnation knows the date of his return (Rapture & Second Coming) absolutely. As does God the Father and the Holy Spirit.
Do the scriptures tell us that Jesus (the Son) incarnate did not know the day or hour of his return YES IT DOES. Unless you wish to twist the scriptures is clearly tells us that in Mark 13:32
My question remains if Mark 13:32 is not a lie which we all know it is not, what else did the Son not know? It's the humanity that Jesus took onto himself that allows this to be studied. In his humanity was it by divine design that Jesus incarnate not know certain things unless God the Father told him during his earthly ministry? It's clear that Jesus asks the Father more than a few questions. You ask questions because you do not know. What was the purpose of Jesus seeking information from the Father if he knew everything? Did the Father reveal things to the Son as the time when on?
I think God is big enough to have Jesus incarnate to have limitations of knowledge for divine purposes that we may not understand. To simple dismiss this is ignoring the many scriptures regarding Jesus reaching out to the Father.
Some want to argue with God. The scriptures again clearly say in Ephesians 3:9 that the fellowship of the mystery hath been hid in God. Either God hid it or he didn't. Some say he didn't hide it, he told the prophets. If that is so then Ephesians 3:9 is false. The Jews never ever saw that Gentiles as being fellow heirs without converting to Judaism. Even after the cross, it was a shock to the Apostles. It remained a shock to most Jews for 50 years after the cross. If it would have NOT BEEN HIDDEN the religious zelots and Jews would not have rejected it, they would have understood the O.T.
Hindsight is 20/20 (for some).
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
The mystery TEXBOW is that God for whom nothing is impossible would rather submit to fallen man and die by his hands because of something far deeper inside himself; something that even the angels stood agape at. We know it as that over used, undervalued, often distorted and misrepresented expression 'love'. If anyone knew its meaning Jesus would surely qualify.
No. The mystery in Ephesians 3 is clear. That Gentiles would become heirs. This is not debated among the vast majority of Bible believers. You simply have to read Ephesians 3.
Not really...
Scripture tells us that Jesus Christ “was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times” for our sakes who believe in God's word (1Pet. 1:20). This does not mean that Jesus personally preexisted his appearance on earth, because in the same chapter we find that Christians have also been in the “foreknowledge of God the Father” (1Pet. 1:2). The words “foreknowledge” and “foreknown,” noun and verb, are exactly alike. Peter uses precisely the same idea to refer to both Christians and Jesus. Christians did not preexist in heaven before our birth on earth and nor did Jesus.
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