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Jesus is a human being but not the one true God

Discussion in 'Unorthodox Doctrine Forum' started by kerwin, Sep 25, 2016.

  1. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    So you claim that Koine Greek does not refer to gender of the individual.

    Please tell me how you translate legei in NT Greek. How would you translate gune, where 'e' is the letter eta? Sadly, I can't transliterate with an ellipse over the 'e' on this forum.
     
  2. shnarkle

    shnarkle New Member

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    I think the doctrine of the trinity may be confusing to some, but there is logic to it, especially John's usage of "the word". The transcendent father is manifest through the power of the breath/spirit in the word made flesh. If the word is made flesh, then it is flesh. The incarnation is then made a sacrifice for sin, and then resurrected and restored to the right hand of God. Now I can say that my right hand isn't who I am, but it certainly is my right hand, and without it, I'm not going to be able to do a whole lot of things.
     
  3. Odn

    Odn New Member

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    I agree up till your explanation that Jesus is 'a god', .. which is true in a sense John 10:34 since we have the Spirit, or "breath" of God in us, and the Bible is also clear on that we are the "Children of God", .. created in Gods image.

    As I have explained in my previous post, here is what John 1:1 writes:

    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    We know God created all the languages, so since I am a simple man (don't speak any Greek, Aramaic or Hebrew, I will go by the English version as it has been translated:
    In the beginning was the Word
    God is both Infinite and Eternal, no beginning nor end, and in His explanation to Moses as to who He is, He said: "Tell them 'I Am' has sent me to you", so we know that the "Word" is NOT God.
    So who had a beginning, and who will be there at the last tthing God creates?
    In Revelations 1:8, .. Revelation 21:6, Revelation 22:13 we know is Gods Son Word, "All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made." who became flesh and was named Jesus.

    (*Rev 1:8 with explanation using Scripture)

    and the Word was with God
    .. obviously

    and the Word was God
    not a-god, but the Word really WAS God, just as their creation in their image Eve WAS Adam before God took her out of Adam.
    God beget His Son Word, just as He later beget Eve from Adam. Genesis 2:21, 22

    It is 'mind' over body, our mind is of (breath/Spirit), and IS God, and our body is created by God.


    Here is some 'meat',

    Warning: the following information is not for babes in need of milk, but those that can handle meat!

    Just as we don't exist without our mind/spirit, God does not exist without His Son Word (now also Jesus Christ), so as Tillich so beautifully explained: "God is not a being, but the ground of being." and he goes on to say: "It is atheistic to affirm the existence of God as it is to deny it. God is being itself, not 'a being'."

    Of course this goes right smack in the face of any religion, especially the Christian Religion, since ALL religions have their own created version of god/gods. Our Infinite Creator revealed in the Bible and in nature/creation itself (as in science) is not the result of some man-made religion-god as what Constantine RCC created Christian Religion deity-god is.
     
  4. Odn

    Odn New Member

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    God is Spirit and Holy, who beget a Son he named 'Word', whom He put in a place called Heaven, through whom He created everything that was ever created. John 1:1 So now the One true Holy Spirit God is a father. When the Holy Spirit is mentioned, that is the "Power of God", still God.

    No, the Holy Spirit did not "come from the Father", .. but IS the Father, who is as is written 'Spirit and Holy'. The Son Word came (begotten) from the Father just as Eve came (was begotten) from Adam.

    As for what you said: "The The Word proceedeth from The Father, THROUGH The Holy Spirit.", .. it is actually the Word/Son became flesh through the Holy Spirit.

    Mathew 1:20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

    When we speak the 'truth', it is Gods Holy Spirit, now also the Spirit that dwells in His Son Word that is speaking through us.
    1 Corinthians 2:12
    Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.


    And after this, it is as you said: "The Word, Now since the Manifestation in the flesh through the Virgin woman., is considered the Son of Man AND the Son of God." John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

    God bless you!
     
  5. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    GINOLJC, to all. not saying that anyone is right or wrong, but consider what I’m about to say. there have been some good responses to the original post. now taken from the op, it states,

    5 For there is one God.
    There is also one mediator between God and the human race,
    Christ Jesus, himself human,

    Scripture cannot be broken (John 10:35-36)
    A being is either of 100% of one kind or 100% of another not 100% of one kind and 100% of another.

    Using deductive reasoning it is quite easy to see that since all these premises are true then Jesus is 100% human and 0% the one true God.

    ******************* keep in memory 100%

    Then kerwin said something very intresting.
    It is a math problem.
    100% is the whole and there cannot two wholes in one whole.

    The claim there is would be to claim 1 + 1 = 1 and that is an untrue statement.

    and Odn said something interesting,
    God is Spirit and Holy, who beget a Son he named Word

    and then he said, No, the Holy Spirit did not "come from the Father", .. but IS the Father, who is as is written 'Spirit and Holy'. The Son Word came (begotten) from the Father just as Eve came (was begotten) from Adam.
    ********************************************************
    I have not read every post, but this is enough to go on. all have good points, but consider this. what if God is a plurality of himself meaning two individuals but the same person, not PERSON(S), but SPIRIT(S). {my first hint, the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ}, both Spirit are capitalized. now I know what one is thinking, “there is one Spirit”, yes, and true, but what if the ONE Spirit diversified himself, like in flesh and bone. would not the Spirit be Spirit, but also spirit, diversified in flesh and bone?. then the formula 1+1=1 is not so absurd after all. I want to concentrate on Person and not the Spirit.

    now the question, “how could the formula 1+1=1 be validated, or confirmed, especially by scripture. it can, let me say it again, it can. this would clear up the John 17:3 controversy as well as Titus 2:13, controversy and many many more scriptures in question about our Lord deity.

    suggestion, what if God is the plurality (H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym) of himself in flesh and bone, meaning two individuals, or as the Hebrew language describe this plurality as the H258/H259 אָחַד 'achad /אֶחָד 'echad of himself in flesh and bone, again, the same person. in this formula here, one would have one + one or “ANOTHER of himself that is one God with one NATURE, shared or diversified in another NATURE, here flesh and bone.

    conclusion: God is a plurality of himself. this being defined in the old testament as the Hebrew words describe, H259, H312. in the Greek, the definition is G243 Allos.

    could this be supported by scripture? yes. Phil 2:6 & 7. and revealed in Genesis 1:26, and certified throughout several chapters in the book of Isaiah and others, but also in the minor prophets of Malachi. especially in Zechariah, which is clearly seen in chapter 13 and verse7, just to name a few.

    footnote 1+1=1 can be applied in nature. 1 Man, husband + 1 woman, wife = 1 Child. Just a footnote...... (smile). a good re-reading of this post is worthy.
     
  6. Guestman

    Guestman Active Member

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    Jesus is "a god", for the apostle John wrote concerning him: "No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god (Greek monogenes theos or created god) who is at the Father's side is the one who has explained him".(John 1:18) Jesus said in the Bible book of Revelation: "These are the things the Son of God says........To the angel of the congregation of Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen says (see 2 Cor 1:20 whereby Paul identifies Jesus as the Amen), the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God".(Rev 2:18; 3:14)

    Jesus is thus "a god", having superhuman power, and in which Isaiah 63 describes him as God's "own personal messenger" (Isa 63:9; "angel of his presence", KJV) who saved the nation of Israel from distressing situations, such as their release from Egypt by causing the 10 plagues and during their 40 year trek in the wilderness.(Ex 14:19, 20)

    John 1:1, 2 reads literally: "In beginning was the (Greek ho, definite article) Word and the (Greek ho, definite article) Word was toward (or with) the (Greek ho, definite article) God and god (no definite article here) was the (Greek ho, definite article) Word. This was in beginning toward (or with) the (Greek ho, definite article) God".

    Why was the definite article left out by the apostle John when calling Jesus "god" ? Simply put, because Jesus is not "the God", but his "only-begotten god" or "only-begotten Son" that he created as his "firstborn".(Col 1:15) Jesus is also called God's "master worker" at Proverbs 8:30 (Hebrew ’a·mohn meaning "skilled i.e. an architect", the King James Bible leaves out this Hebrew word, skipping over it; see the online Scripture4all interlinear), who assisted Jehovah God in creating the universe.(see Col 1:16 which says that "by means of him (Jesus) all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible")
     
  7. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    This is a misunderstanding. You reason with the reasoning of a man, as a man. And just as God is higher than man, so are his ways. What is impossible for men by his own understanding and logic, is possible with God.

    So, then, if we are told that God is One, and Jesus explains that he and the Father are One...a reasonable person will not look to the relationship he has with his own father [entirely] as if it is a law which God is bound by, and say that it is impossible for things to be different for God, as you have. No, a reasonable person will know the voice of his Master and hear him and believe his explanation.
     
  8. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    GINOLJC, to all. let’s put this matter to rest, and obtain a better understanding. The Lord Jesus is God shared in Flesh as a diversity of himself, meaning he’s the Son of God in flesh and bone with blood, 100%. also he is the Son of man spirit (shared) without flesh bone and blood, 100%. what one fail to understand is that we as well as the Lord Jesus/God, is composed of a outward man (flesh), and a inward man (spirit). supportive scripture, 2 Corinthians 4:16 "For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day”. knowing this, God came or manifested in flesh. now put that on HOLD.

    let’s get to the scriptures that clearly without a doubt states that the Lord Jesus is God the Holy Spirit the Father without Flesh and bone, and God the Holy Spirit the Son with flesh and bone.

    acts chapter 9, Paul, then Saul on the road to Damascus, he encountered our Lord and God the Saviour Jesus the Christ. our brother Ananias gives us the clear identification of the Lord Jesus in Scriptures as the ONLY TRUE GOD. listen and understand. Acts 9:15 "But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake”. here clearly the Lord Jesus had chosen Saul/Paul as his minister, to bare his name. at this point many may argue that the one whom is called the Father chose Paul/Saul for his Son. ok, let’s continue. in another place in the book of acts, the apostle Paul gives more detail of the same account of what our brother Ananias said to him when he was at Jerusalem, when he was arrested. what brother Ananias said, identified the Lord Jesus being God, and God alone. we pick up this account in Acts 22:12 "And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there, 13 Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him. 14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth. 15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard”. notice what makes our brother testimony so important he said, “The God of our fathers hath chosen thee”. the ONLY GOD of their FATHERS is the LORD, the ALMIGHTY, THE “ONLY TRUE” GOD… RIGHT . but was it not the Lord Jesus who chose Saul/Paul?, Acts 9:15a "But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me”. well let’s see, because Paul, gives yet another account of the same story to king Agrippa with even more detail. Acts 26:12 " Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests, 13 At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me. 14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. 16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee”. the Lord Jesus said that he would “MAKE” him, (Paul, then Saul) his minister. now the key word here is “make”. and it’s the Greek word, G4400 προχειρίζομαι procheirizomai (prokh-ei-rid'-zom-ai) which means, to handle for oneself in advance, to purpose, appoint, or choose. there is our word, it is choose, or as in acts chapter 22, chosen. which is the same Greek word to “make. here is the definer that spells doom to all other doctrines out there. this Greek word G4400 προχειρίζομαι procheirizomai (prokh-ei-rid'-zom-ai) is not found any where else in the bible, only in these two accounts (Acts 22:14 and Acts 26:16). so it can’t be used in no other way (as an excuse). and the implication in it’s used is crystal clear. clearly it was our Lord Jesus, the God of the fathers “THE ONLY TRUE GOD” who chose Paul to carry his name (JESUS) to all the known world. now we see clearly that, according to Acts 26:16, it was the Lord Jesus who chose Saul/Paul that’s a scriptural fact, as one said, "the scriptures cannot be broken". and our brother Ananias in Acts 22:14a clearly said, "The God of our fathers hath chosen (G4400 προχειρίζομαι procheirizomai) thee”. this is clear proof from the scriptures that our Lord Jesus is the God of the forefathers. YES, the same God who did not have a body of flesh and blood when he made the first Adam’s. (both male, and female). the Same God, Spirit, who talked to Abraham, John 8:58 "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am”. the SAME Spirit, who talked to Moses from the burning bush. and now that SAME Spirit that is shared in flesh and bone, called Son, with his personal name, “JESUS” talking to men in the flesh. Yes, Thomas is 100% correct in saying “My Lord, (human MAN), and My God (Divine Spirit)”. for Jesus the Christ is Lord (man/flesh and bone) and GOD (Spirit/without flesh and bones). his flesh and bones was to come, scripture, Romans 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come”. figure is the Greek word G5179 τύπος tupos (tï '-pos) which means, , fashion, form, manner, pattern, the LAST ADAM, which means “ANOTHER”. clearly our Saviour is the “diversity” or the equal share, or the ANOTHER of God himself in flesh. and the book of Acts confirm this fact.
    this doctrine is “diversified oneness”. just as Genesis 1:1 points out in the beginning that God is a plurality of himself . and all through the bible to Revelation. Amen.
     
  9. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    101G,

    Would you please write in small paragraphs so that I can understand you better?

    Oz
     
  10. Guestman

    Guestman Active Member

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    It is apparent that those who adhere to the postulation that "the Lord Jesus is God" are not serious about examining the Bible. These ones are not genuinely searching the Bible, but are like the Jews of which Jesus spoke: "The works that my Father assigned me to accomplish, these works that I am doing, bear witness that the Father sent me.......You are searching the Scriptures because you think that you will have everlasting life by mean of them; and these are the very ones that bear witness about me".(John 5:36, 39)

    Like the Jews, many are unwilling to reason on the Bible, but stick by the belief that "Jesus is God", despite him saying that he was doing "the works that my Father assigned me to accomplish" and that the "Father sent me", and despite the fact that Jesus said that "the Father is greater than I am".(John 14:28)

    Even though Jesus said to the Jews that "I do nothing of my own initiative; but just as the Father taught me, I speak these things. And the One who sent me is with me; he did not abandon me to myself, because I always do the things pleasing to him"(John 8:28, 29), and despite his many other words speaking of this, they will still cling to the mistaken belief that "the Lord Jesus is God".

    This kind of rationale is like the Jews who heard his words, saw his demonstrations of healing and even resurrecting of the dead, and could read the Messianic prophecies for themselves, but continued to hang onto their biased opinion that Jesus was not God's Son, wrongly believing that he was "making himself equal to God".(John 5:18)

    For those who think that this Scripture actually teaches that Jesus is "equal to God", they fail to consider the context, that this is what the Jews believed, not Jesus, for the account says that the Jews said that Jesus was "breaking the Sabbath", but was he ? No. But in their minds he was. And in their minds, he was "making himself equal to God", but they were wrong.

    Thus, in response, Jesus tells them that he is "the Son", not God, stating that "the Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative but only what he sees the Father doing.......For the Father judges no one at all, but he has entrusted all the judging to the Son".(John 5:19, 22) How could be God and yet be said that the Father entrusts all the judging to the Son ? How could Jesus be God and yet not "not do a single thing of his own initiative" ?
     
  11. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    We know that this is not so because the Bible tells us so.

    Did Jesus really say anything while he was on earth about his being God? Yes, he did, in John 8:58, which reads: ‘Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am”’ (ESV).

    R C H Lenski, a Greek exegete, provides this explanation of this verse, that in my understanding of the original language, gives an accurate explanation of the NT Greek:

    58) Not only does Jesus affirm what the question of the Jews asks, with the solemn formula of verity and authority he affirms vastly more. Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I am. The aorist genesthai (prin with the infinitive after a positive verb, R. 977, 1091) marks the historical point of time when Abraham came into existence as against the time prior to that point when Abraham did not exist. this aorist is in contrast to eimi [I am]; which Jesus predicates of his own person (ego), here a finite verb not the mere copula (R. 394). As the aorist sets a point of beginning for the existence of Abraham, so the present tense “I am” predicates absolute existence for the person of Jesus, with no point of beginning at all. That is why Jesus does not use the imperfect emen, “I was”; for this would say only that the existence of the person antedates the time of Abraham and would leave open the question whether the person of Jesus also had a beginning like that of Abraham (only earlier) or not. What Jesus declares is that, although his earthly life covers less than fifty years, his existence as a person (ego) is constant and independent of any beginning in time as was that of Abraham. For what Jesus here says about himself in comparison with any other man, no matter how far back the beginning of that man’s existence lies. “I am”=I exist. Thus with the simplest words Jesus testifies to the divine, eternal pre-existence of his person.

    To speak of an “ideal” existence before the days of Abraham is to turn the solemn assurance of Jesus into a statement that means nothing. Unacceptable are also all other efforts to empty out this divine “I am” and to substitute for the fact and reality of existence before Abraham something merely mental, whether this occurred in the mind of Jesus or in that of God. Yet this “I am” is nothing new: by means of two tiny words it states only what Jesus has testified and continues to testify of himself in many other words in other connections. Thus, too, it forms the parting of the ways for faith and unbelief.

    Yes, Jesus has seen Abraham – the deduction of the Jews is right in every respect, only it should go much farther.

    59) As Jesus had made his meaning clear to the Jews in the first place, so also he did in this final word. they understand its full import, namely that, if the existence of the person of Jesus antedates that of Abraham in absolute continuation, he declares himself to be God. To them this is rank blasphemy. They took up stones, therefore, in order to throw at him; but Jesus was hidden and went out of the Temple. (Lenski 1943:670-671).​

    Note the R in this quote from Lenski refers to A. T. Robertson’s, fourth edition of his massive Greek grammar (Robertson 1934).

    This explanation of the Greek from Lenski is technical, but it demonstrates from the NT’s original language that Jesus was confirming that he is eternally God and he did not stop being God when on earth, according to John 8:58. To the Jews of Jesus’ day that was a statement of blasphemy for which He needed to receive capital punishment – so they wanted to stone him.

    They knew what Jesus meant by these words. He was claiming to be God and they wanted him executed.

    At no time before, during, or after Jesus’ coming to earth did Jesus ever cease being God. He is an eternal member of the Trinity. To say that Jesus was not God while on earth declares a fundamental denial of a core Christian teaching – the Trinity.

    The above is taken from my article, Did John 8:58 refer to Jesus as God?

    We know from biblical exposition that Jesus is not 'a god' as the JWs and Christadelphians teach. See my article, Is Jesus a God and not the God? My article demonstrates from Greek grammar this statement by you is false, 'Why was the definite article left out by the apostle John when calling Jesus "god" ? Simply put, because Jesus is not "the God"'.

    Jesus IS God, but you don't know your Greek grammar.


    Oz

    Works consulted

    Lenski, R C H 1943. Commentary on the New Testament: The interpretation of St. John’s Gospel. Peabody, Mass: Hendrickson Publishers (special limited edition from Augsburg Fortress).

    Robertson, A T 1934. A grammar of the Greek New Testament in the light of historical research. Nashville, Tennessee: Broadman Press.
     
  12. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    Guestman,

    This is false. I'm serious about examining the NT about Jesus as God. As a teacher of NT Greek, I want to be accurate with the Greek grammar.

    For you to say that Jesus is not God, you have done violence to the Greek grammar. I have explained this in Is Jesus a God and not the God?

    You are violating a fundamental of Greek grammar and the use of the noun after the verb to be when you want to conclude that Jesus is 'a god'.

    Oz
     
  13. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    GINOLJC, to all. let's get to the hear of the post, "Jesus is a human being but not the one true God". let's examine some of these claims.
    #1 many have said that the Lord Jesus is not equal with God. lets examine this claim
    scriptures,
    Isaiah 40:25 "To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One”.
    Isaiah 46:5 "To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?".
    These two scriptures makes it very clear that no one is equal or like him. well let's see.
    Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God". well the Lord Jesus is equal with God. many say that the son is a second person, and most important, a doctrine states that the Lord Jesus is not only a second person but this person separate. now my question how can a person be second to another person?. none.
    Philippians 2:6 states, "Who, being in the form of God". so the simple question would be what is the "form" of God? answer,
    G3444 μορφή morphe (mor-fee') n.
    1. form.
    2. (intrinsically) fundamental nature.
    from the base of G3313
    KJV: form
    ok, the form of God is Spirit. for God is abstract. now knowing this how can the Lord Jesus be "EQUAL" with God? answer, it's in the root word of G3444 μορφή morphe (mor-fee') look it up
     
  14. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    I have refuted your theology in #111. Yours is a false theology that is not supported by Scripture. You have glossed over Scripture to get to the invented theology of your theological system.

    It was C S Lewis who stated:

    A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic--on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg--or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was and is the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon; or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us (C. S. Lewis, Mere Christianity. New York: Macmillan, 1952, p. 56).​

    Oz
     
  15. Guestman

    Guestman Active Member

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    Again, you fail to be a careful student of the Bible, for if saying "I am" (according the rendering of the archaic King James Bible whose language is long out of date) at John 8:58 means that Jesus is God, then the man born blind at John 9 is also God, for he said the same two Greek words "ego eimi" when asked if he was the one born blind.(John 9:9; note, the King James Bible adds the word "he" here)

    Thus, this argument of Jesus being God due to a couple of words does not "hold water". And if you had read more closely, the context shows that the Jews were questioning Jesus age (John 8:57), not who he was, and in which Jesus responded: "Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came in to existence, I have been".(John 8:58, New World Translation)

    Clinging onto the words "I am" at John 8:58 as rendered by the KJV is based on the faulty rendering of the KJV at Exodus 3:14 of the meaning of God's name of Jehovah: "I AM THAT I AM.....say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you". The Hebrew hawah as part of God's name, means, not I AM, but "cause to become".

    Hence, according to the interlinear Scripture4all at Exodus 3:14, the Hebrew words aeie ashr aeie (as transliterated into English characters) means "I-shall-become who I-am-becoming", or properly rendered "I Will Become What I Choose to Become". And Jesus words should bring to rest that he is not God, for if he were God, then why does he not know the "day and hour" when "the great tribulation" will begin ?(Matt 24:36) Did he suddenly have amnesia ?

    Why did he tell his apostles concerning "restoring the kingdom to Israel" that "it does not belong to you to know the times and seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction" ?(Acts 1:6, 7) Why is this knowledge off-limits to Jesus if he is God ? And how could Jesus be "the beginning of the creation by God" if he is God ?(Rev 3:14)

    As the expression "You're barking up the wrong tree" applies, so you're have the wrong belief that Jesus is God. As John Dickerson of Meet the Press said back in April 2017: "Studies show that when a person believes something passionately, contrary facts don’t change their mind, they make them double down". Why would people "double down" against the facts ? Because they don't want their "boat to be rocked", remaining with a mistaken conviction rather than seek what really is true.
     
  16. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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  17. Sword

    Sword Well-Known Member

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    Very very poor attempt to discredit Christ. Have at good read of the scriptural proofs Of Jesus as God.

    Any one who enjoyed the 100% proofs of healing as an UNDISPUTIBLE FACT :)
    Will also enjoy the very same here. This is undisputible to. Read it and Bow to Jesus our God
     

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  18. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    GINOLJC, to all. since some cannot understand "diversified oneness" the true and correct doctrine that our Lord Jesus taught. the only way to prove this doctrine is to put it to the test, correct?. here is one of the TEST. and this is on topic.
    Revelation 1:4 & 5 "John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood"
    in the above scriptures, how many "PERSONS" is this letter from,
    A. the Father, whom some may say is the "him which is, and which was, and which is to come".
    B. the Holy Spirit, who some say is the "seven Spirits which are before his throne". or,
    C. the Son, Jesus the Christ, the "faithful witness". this a give me.

    so the TEST. is this Revelation from 3 persons, or ONE person. read those two verses again, and tell us how many person this letter is from. if you think that your doctrine is correct, put it to the test
     
  19. Guestman

    Guestman Active Member

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    Is Greek grammar what establishes just who Jesus is ? If I tell you that I am so-and-so, showing you my driver's license, credit cards, pictures of my family, and birth certificate, then you say that well, I need to show you grammatically exactly who I am, whose the one that needs help ?
    Jesus and his apostles words establish who he is, the "only-begotten Son of God" (John 3:16), that " I am a representative from" God (John 6:29) and that "the Son of man cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he sees the Father doing".(John 5:19) "the firstborn of all creation" (Col 1:15), "the beginning of the creation by God".(Rev 3:14)

    John 1:1 says that Jesus is "a god", and in which an ancient Sahidic Coptic (a language that Greek was translated into shortly after the death of the apostles) manuscript verifies this. The Anchor Bible Dictionary says of Sahidic Coptic: "Since the [Greek Septuagint] and the [Christian Greek Scriptures or New Testament] were being translated into Coptic during the 3rd century C.E., the Coptic version is based on [Greek manuscripts] which are significantly older than the vast majority of extant (or existing) witnesses".

    Sahidic Coptic also had an indefinite article ("a") that is lacking in Koine Greek and has to be understood by context. The Sahidic Coptic rendering of John 1:1 reads: "in the beginning existed the Word and the Word existed with the God and a god was the Word".(Chester Beatty Manuscript 813, located in Dublin, Ireland)
     
  20. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    Context! Context! Context!

    When Jesus said, 'I am', he did not mean 'I am' as in this sentence, 'I am in hospital', which is where I am now.

    Oz
     
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