Jesus is Michael
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JohnPaul
Soldier of Jehovah and Christ
I cannot accept or fathom Arch Angel Michael being Christ, I have never heard of this comparison until recently.
Christ is the son of God where St. Michael is the lead Angel.
Christ is the son of God where St. Michael is the lead Angel.
There are different forms of angels. seraphs, cherubs, etc. each group must have a prince over them. But Michael is the only one called Archangel.
Psalm 45:7-- Jesus is oiled with exultation-more than his partners( Angels)
rubbish.
absolute bunk.
look:
And of the angels He says:
“Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.”
But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
(Hebrews 1:7-9)
“Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.”
But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
(Hebrews 1:7-9)
- the Son is clearly God
- to the Son He says Your throne O God
- God Himself calls Christ God
- to the Son He says Your throne O God
- and the Son is clearly not an angel
- of the angels He says.. but to the Son He says
- God Himself emphatically differentiates the Son from angels
- of the angels He says.. but to the Son He says
'companions' in the psalm is us, human beings.
Isaiah 8:20 says "if they speak not according to the word..."
if you are trying to say scripture, the testimony of Christ, has nothing to do with your argument, then i agree.
the idea that Jesus is Michael has nothing to do with scripture.
Yes he is the archangel, chief of all angels. And see he had to be annointed, if he were God he wouldnt have to be.
Then prove 1Thess 4:16--that the voice of the archangel he comes with isnt his? Does Michael loan it to him?
if i ring your doorbell does that mean i am a doorbell?
a king is announced by an herald when he enters a room: is therefore the king an herald, because he enters with the shout of an herald?
you make a ridiculously flimsy argument.
the verse says 'with the trump of God' so by your logic Christ is a trumpet.
what?? no - a mighty angel shouts, and a trumpet is sounded, when the King appears. these things herald His coming.
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Hebrews 1 stands.
scripture is not broken just because you choose to ignore it, nor is it broken by your misunderstanding of it.
The trumpet announces his ride. The voice is his. What other reason would he come with the archangels voice?
First of all, YHWH Is not in Genesis one. The name for god there is Elohim, not Yahweh. Elohim is the plural name for God, not a singular name for God, also the koine Greek translation is not in Genesis one. The Hebrew name for god there is Elohim, not Yahweh.
Elohim is the plural name for God, not a singular name for God. The Trinity is actually shown in this Chapter.
Secondly scripture is beyond crystal clear that Jesus made every single thing that was created without exception, that all things were made by him, without him nothing was made that was made. This means Jesus cannot possibly be a created being, unless you are going to make the ludicrous claim that Jesus created himself - therefore he can’t be Michael, a created being called an angel.
Third, the obvious context of the Hebrews1:13 scripture, where God says, ‘to which angel did God ever say, sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool?’, is that it is saying, to no angel did I ever say that - and modern English bibles reflect that obvious meaning:
Heb 1:13 God never said to any of the angels, "Sit at my right side until I make your enemies into a footstool for you!"
Jesus is not now, nor ever was an angel.
The problem that you JWs have, is found in the Isaiah verse where God says he created everything alone by himself , and no one was with him, fits perfectly into the Trinity belief of one God manifest as three persons, but does not fit into the watch tower scenario regarding his master helper Naked man in their own image.
Elohim, the plural name for god, said let us make man in our image.
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If you would bother to look at the original Greek language that was translated from, and how other translations have rendered that passage, you would find out that Jesus is the firstborn OVER all creation - it means Jesus has the preeminence over all creation, the preeminence given to firstborn sons in families, and does not mean He was the first to be created.
Since Jesus clearly made all things that were created, and that ‘without him nothing was made that was made’ , it’s obvious that the above interpretation is correct regarding the firstborn.
The New World translation inserts a word in the text that doesn’t belong there, the word OTHER to make it fit their theology, by making the text say Jesus created all other things.
And in that Bible they put all the words that they insert into various scriptures in brackets, so you can plainly see which words have been inserted that don’t belong in the passage, which includes the word ‘other’.
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Every Hebrew scholar will tell you Elohim is not a name. Its a Hebrew word with various meanings. And never plural for the true living God. Only the trinity teachers tell you that bad advice about that word. The Hebrew scholars know way more about that word than any trinitarian.
Trinity translations are filled with errors. The Hebrew scholars also say--there is no i am that i am in the Hebrew OT--I will be what i will be is the correct translation of that statement. Catholicism translating is all the remained when others translated. They mis translated many spots to fit false council teachings. That is Fact.
Let us( YHWH and his master worker( Jesus) is Fact.
The being God sent speaks at proverbs 8 and tells you he was created. There is no doubt it is Jesus. It is not God spreaking.
Firstborn of all creation--proves he was created. Your teachers twist it, but the term all creation is talking about the beginning creation firstborn.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
And Dwayne Johnson is the Tooth Fairy!
The JW.org is likened to Hollywood in that they interpret reality differently and present it that way. Most people watch movies and know that they are not reality. Even if the story is based on truth, they just rarely get it right.
They say kids, with some exceptions, can't differenciate between what is real and what is fantasy until about age 8. JW's spiritually are stuck at about 7 ... and don't believe there is an age 8.
After 13 years of trying to reasin through the scriptures with my beloved JW family members, the case has been rendered futile. They won't nor can they see spiritually as we do.
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
“Then you must recall the Lord’s instructions and the prophetic testimony of what would happen. Certainly they say such things because their minds are spiritually darkened.” (Isaiah 8:20 NET)
Your inference here is that anyone who believes differently to yourself, or who uses anything but the KJB cannot be telling the truth because they are in a spiritually darkened state......but did it ever occur to you that history is repeating? And it is fulfilling prophesy....? Could you ever contemplate that it is people like yourself, who might be in a spiritually darkened state?...lost in an old and corrupted religious system?
When Jesus walked the earth, the Jews, under the leadership of the corrupt Pharisees, had led the people away from God and had twisted scripture to suit themselves and to paint themselves in a good light. Anyone who dared to disagree with their interpretation of God’s word was treated like dirt, even being stoned to death for blasphemy.
Jesus was seen as an apostate rebel.....a threat to Judaism, and the Pharisees tried in many ways to silence him, but they could not deny what the people were seeing and hearing. All they could do was ostracise the ones who followed his teachings, and they found fault with him constantly.
OTOH Jesus was exposing them as the hypocritical frauds that they were. His description of them was scathing, as we see in Matthew ch 23.
After three and a half years Jesus had gathered enough faithful ones to begin a groundswell of change among the Jewish people, but by and large, the majority stayed with the teachings of the Pharisees and they believed the lies they told about Jesus and his apostles. We all know what resulted.
Matthew 27:24-26 says...
“When Pilate saw that he could do nothing, but that instead a riot was starting, he took some water, washed his hands before the crowd and said, “I am innocent of this man’s blood. You take care of it yourselves!” In reply all the people said, “Let his blood be on us and on our children!” Then he released Barabbas for them. But after he had Jesus flogged, he handed him over to be crucified.”
(Matthew 27:24-26 NET)
The people were so convinced of Jesus’ guilt that they cursed themselves and their children with his blood. (It is why the Jewish people have suffered so much down through history) The Pharisees had managed to perpetuate their lies and the people condemned themselves because they listened to the wrong leaders. In their eyes Jesus seemed like a guilty man....no question.
So what about Christianity? Could the devil manage the same scenario with them? Jesus answers that question in Matthew 13:24-30...
Then he explained his parable in Matthew 13:36-43...
“Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him saying, “Explain to us the parable of the darnel in the field.” He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world and the good seed are the people of the kingdom. The poisonous weeds are the people of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. As the poisonous weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather from his kingdom everything that causes sin as well as all lawbreakers. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. The one who has ears had better listen!” (NET)
The devil was going to produce a counterfeit “Christianity” that would see him sow poisonous “weeds” and call what they taught, ‘the truth’. Both were to grow in the same “world” together, thus giving people the same options as the first century Jews were given....to go with the majority and deny the truth, or to accept the teachings of someone who taught them things that resonated with their hearts, but not with the hearts of others. It would mean choosing either a popular view as held by the majority, or an unpopular one that would bring with it a whole heap of opposition and denial. (John 15:18-21)
All of the people today at the close of this “age” are on notice. They too must choose, either to go with the majority in the popular view, or to side with the minority whose truth they try to deny.
The devil is the master of deceit and confusion....but he has no new tricks. He just presents the old ones in a new era.
We all have to ask ourselves what Jesus meant in Matthew 7:13-14....
“Enter through the narrow gate, because the gate is wide and the way is spacious that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. How narrow is the gate and difficult the way that leads to life, and there are few who find it!”
Who are the “few” compared to the “many”? And who do we choose to side with?
Jesus went on to say.....in verses 21-23...
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven—only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. On that day, many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many powerful deeds in your name?’ Then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you. Go away from me, you lawbreakers!’”(NET)
Jesus is rejecting the “many” who honestly believe what their religious leaders have taught them for centuries, but Jesus says “I never knew you”....”NEVER” means “not ever”......so history is repeating right before our eyes. By his teachings, Jesus said the same things about the Pharisees. He said that their teachings were leading the people to “Gehenna” along with themselves. (Matthew 23:15, 33)
So where are we? Are we stuck in a corrupted religious system that Jesus is going to reject and will send his angels to take down?.....or are we among the “few” who have the courage of their convictions and will stand up for the truth, no matter what anyone says?...no matter how much opposition we face?
We all have to decide that for ourselves.
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