A loaded question
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
you see it coming, @Keiw
because He is seeking you.
even now, i display it for you; i witness: THE TRUTH
no one is good, but God alonelet me be His instrument; amen
- Jesus
remember, oh great Rememberer!
SO then you are saying the apostles were evil then in your scenario.
A loaded question
I invite you to explain why you say capitalization is irrelevant. Neither Hebrew or Greek uses capital letters. In English we capitalize titles and names. So translators have to decide when a title or name is in the text to add the capital letters. They decided “I Am” is a title or name in Exodus 3:14 but not in John 8:58. Keep in mind sir that these translators were trinitarian yet their conscience did not allow them to twist this verse into a trinitarian support.Horse manure! Whether someone capitalizes it or not is irrelevant!
Simple fact Jesus is the author of all grammar and is not stupid. He would not have spoken such a grammatically incorrect statement unless there was a reason.
John 8:57-59
King James Version
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
the pharisees were not about to stone Him for saying He knew Abraham- but because He called Himself Yahweh!
JOhn recognized Jesus was equal to HIs Father earlier in his gospel.
John 5:18
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
There are only 10 translators who make it look like Jesus is speaking nonsense. The other great majority of translators, who most if not all believe in the trinity, resist the temptation to leave off the pronoun to try to add a verse to support the otherwise scripturally anemic argument for the trinity.the fact is that 'he' is not in the text.
the fact is that translators add it because the text as it stands bewilders them.
the fact is that the way is narrow, and few find it.
so when you say it makes no sense, you are telling Jesus He is speaking nonsense.
what you ought to do instead is seek Him.
My, the knots you people tie to stick to your doctrine of men. Jesus didn’t he was equal to his Father. He simply said God is his Father. No one but a trinitarian would think that the relationship of a father to a son implies being coequal and certainly not coeternal. The Jews never believed the Messiah was part of a triune god.Well it was John Himself who said that Jesus was equal to the Father.
John 5:18
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
The accusation is not wrong! If one is THE Son of God He is equal to Gods in nature!
Interestingly most if not all of those translators were trinitarians like you. They just saw the need to translate John 8:58 so it makes sense grammatically and in context instead of trying to create a trinitarian “proof” text. Good for them! Don’t be too concerned though. The majority of trinitarian translators did not exhibit such integrity.oh. that's nice. you found lots of inaccurate, unfaithful translations.
no surprise.
is the fact that the way is narrow and few find it supposed to make me acquiesce to the blind multitude?
I invite you to explain why you say capitalization is irrelevant. Neither Hebrew or Greek uses capital letters. In English we capitalize titles and names. So translators have to decide when a title or name is in the text to add the capital letters. They decided “I Am” is a title or name in Exodus 3:14 but not in John 8:58. Keep in mind sir that these translators were trinitarian yet their conscience did not allow them to twist this verse into a trinitarian support.
My, the knots you people tie to stick to your doctrine of men. Jesus didn’t he was equal to his Father. He simply said God is his Father. No one but a trinitarian would think that the relationship of a father to a son implies being coequal and certainly not coeternal. The Jews never believed the Messiah was part of a triune god.
If you are going to base your belief in Jesus being equal to God on John 5:18, maybe you should include Jesus’ response in verse 19.
“Therefore, in response Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, the Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son does also in like manner.”
Amen! And to Complete The Triune GodHead, God, The Holy Spirit, AlsoAs the Son is God He will not do anything that is sin. He is perfect in righteousness as His Father! So He obeys HIs father willingly and lovingly for they have a perfect relationship!
.......This is a lie. the present indicates a statement of fact! th efact that it is also active indicative lets us know that the false translations are just that bad translating!
Before you cut and paste authors at random- may be you should look at teh differences in syntax between attic and koine Greek!
No they do not confirm this, they say it may be rendered in certain cases . and if you bothered to notice they do not speak of John 8:58- You failed again.
Dana and Mantey are correct, but your ability to understand it is incorrect. The you are refers to the fact that they were with Him froma point in time referred (beginning) that is why in English to be grammatically correct it is translated have been, because it refers to teh point in time when the apostles started being with Jesus. JOhn 8:58 does not do so! multiple verbs may need to be added to translate into English, but you cannot add an adverb for translating unless it is already there.
.......
You do know that NT Greek IS koine Greek, do you not? (See the titles of the the quoted sources) Do you not see John 8:58 specifically cited in most of the quoted references? Perhaps if you read my post again with a little care you would find the errors in your response:
John 8:58 (post 409)
Those Jews had asked how Jesus could have possibly known Abraham who had died nearly 2000 years before. Jesus’ reply was obviously an explanation that he had been in existence even before Abraham had been born and was not merely an explanation of identity.
It is ludicrous to interpret this verse with the understanding that Jesus is using the personal name (“Jehovah”) or an exclusive title (such as “Most High” - Luke 6:35; Luke 1:32; Ps. 83:18 ASV, KJV) to identify himself: “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, Jehovah.” Or, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, the Most High.” So, the immediate context simply does not allow a “title of God” interpretation for the use of ego eimi in this verse!
The Jews had angrily implied that Jesus was a liar for claiming to be older than his apparent years. “You’re not even 50 years old and yet [you say] you have seen Abraham!” Jesus’ most likely response, then, would have been about his age --- his actual existence 1900 years before being born in Bethlehem (so that he actually could have “seen Abraham”). Therefore he would have said: “Before Abraham was even born, I existed.”
It would be more appropriate (although still clearly false), in light of the context, to show that the person whom the crowd is trying to identify at John 9:9 is claiming this “title” (ego eimi), for that is his reply to those who were questioning his identity (not his earlier existence) - see John 9:9 in any Interlinear New Testament.
Some other uses of ego eimi which may be found in any interlinear Greek-English New Testament are Matt. 26:22, 25; Acts 22:3; Acts 26:29; Acts 27:23. Also, if you have the Greek Septuagint Bible you might examine these uses of ego eimi: 2 Kings (2 Samuel in Hebrew scriptures) 2:20; 15:26; Is. 6:8.
To be continued
YOu do know that Jesus was Jewish and with the Jews He would have spoke Hebrew right? John was written in Greek but the Spoirit moved him from the recollections of what he heard in Hebrew.
If God wished to convey in HIs Word that jesus "already was" He would have written : Ήμουν ήδη. (imoun edi) not ego eime.
Sorry your argument fails. And all your reasoning's fall short. The Jews knew the name of God as "I am". If Jesus meant any othetr term to just show He was older than Abraham there were plenty of ways God would have inspired John to say it other than "ego eimi or in the Hebrew "ey-yah".
There is no i am that i am in the Hebrew language. Its a trinity mistranslation. Every one on earth who can speak Hebrew will tell you that fact. I will be what i will be is the correct translating from Hebrew.
Well I will tell that to the Jewish Messianic believer who is a native speaker- He will get a good chuckle from your watchtower indoctrination.
Depending on construct with all those nice hebrew tenses voices etc. It can be rendered as will be. An example, I will be going to Egypt but I am here is not eh-yah, because it is an indefnite. If a definite is in the sentence then its construct would be different and it would be required to be read: I am going to Egypt three days from now!
The watchtower has no Hebrew scholars. Teh big wigs know that but keep you in the dark!
Actually i looked it up online to be sure. Its truth. Same with Elohim, the Hebrew rule = never plural for the true God.